Subseries: John Reynolds, 1985 April 11
Note: Access online.

INTRODUCTION

BIOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Born and raised in Green Bay. Father was a progressive Republican attorney general, 1926-1933; 1938, state chair of the Progressive Party.

COLLEGE POLITICAL ACTIVITIES
Scope and Content Note: Entered University of Wisconsin-Madison in 1938. Attended Young Progressives meetings; active with the Daily Cardinal; “the normal things that active kids do at the University.”

IN THE ARMY, 1942-1946
Scope and Content Note: A first lieutenant in the counterintelligence corps. Never left the United States.

MORE ON COLLEGE YEARS
Scope and Content Note: Finished his B.A. after the War and went on to get his law degree. Student law clerk in the attorney general's office, 1948.

BREAK UP OF THE PROGRESSIVE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: He was not yet back from the War when the Progressives had their last convention in 1946. Did write his father urging that the Progressives go into the Democratic Party, not the Republican Party. “So by the time I left the army, I was ideologically a Roosevelt Democrat; or, we should say a 'New Deal' Democrat. I still am.≵ His father felt the Progressives should go into the Republican Party because he thought Norwegians would never vote for the Democratic Party. “The fact is he underestimated the impact of Germany's invasion into Norway and the influence that had on the Norwegian population of our state. And I do recall going into the office and pointing out to him, with a certain amount of glee I should say, that when Lester Johnson was elected to Congress in the old ninth district, which was heavily Norwegian....”

FIRST INVOLVEMENT WITH DEMOCRATS
Scope and Content Note: The election of 1946. “My sympathies were with the Democrats at that time.” Professor Selig Perlman favored Bob La Follette that year, pointing out that it was important to elect some good Republicans because some day “the Republicans would govern.” Did not vote in the Republican primary that year. Only voted in the Republican primary once in his life, that for the brother of a close friend, “and I thought it was a mistake.” That vote was for John Byrnes in 1944.

ANECDOTE ABOUT LISTING HIS POLITICAL AFFILIATION AS PROGRESSIVE PARTY WHEN IN THE ARMY
Scope and Content Note: For the intelligence work for which he was being trained, he had to list any political parties he belonged to other than the two major parties. He listed the Progressive Party, “and, of course, the military didn't know what that was.” Had to be checked out.

1948 CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: Was involved only as a worker at the party headquarters. Both he and his wife, whose father had also been an active Progressive, worked at party headquarters. Their main job was to comb the old Progressive lists looking for names of people in their home areas who might be amenable to becoming Democrats.

ORGANIZING LOCAL DOC UNITS; HELP FROM OLD-LINE DEMOCRATS
Scope and Content Note: Returned to Green Bay to practice law in January 1949. Immediately took an active role as an organizer of the eighth congressional district “and making sure we had a viable Democratic Organizing Committee in each of the counties. We were helped immeasurably in Green Bay by some of the old-line Democrats.” Old-line Democrats in Green Bay included both the “post office” Democrats and a liberal group, headed by Gerry Clifford. Clifford had been in charge of Henry Wallace's attempt to be renominated for vice president at the 1944 Democratic convention. Clifford was very effective at cutting down opposition. Basically operated “through the old La Follette group.” Worked with Harvey Graase, a former Progressive in Door County, and “there were a lot of old Progressives, a lot of Scandinavian people in Door County who were receptive to the change. We did the same in Outagamie county--Louie Nelson is the only Socialist that I have met who was the president of a paper mill.” Also Katherine Sullivan in Kaukauna. “And they seemed to welcome the idea of these young people coming in and... revitalizing the Democratic Party....”

ATTRACTION OF THE DOC
Scope and Content Note: “I think that the main interest of the activists who came into the party was some belief in some form of a democratic liberal society, maybe on the Scandinavian model, maybe on the Swedish model; some- times they were as far left as the Socialists, sometimes they were just reformers who were against corruption. But basically I think there was a common and a very important ideological commitment that we were really out to improve society, along what I would call the Swedish model.”

INVOLVEMENT OF LABOR IN THE DOC IN THE EIGHTH DISTRICT
Scope and Content Note: In Green Bay the building trades were the active sector of the labor movement and they had been “very active in the old Progressive Party and they were very relieved, I think...to eliminate the problem, or have it eliminated for them, the problem of a third party, because they felt more comfortable in the Democratic Party, and they were very helpful.” Outagamie had a strong labor group “and Manitowoc County was the most Democratic county of northeast Wisconsin; the labor group was very helpful there.”

REYNOLDS' CONGRESSIONAL RACE, 1950
Scope and Content Note: The party could not find a candidate, “and I volunteered. I was anxious to do it.”

FIRST DOC CONVENTION, 1949 IN GREEN BAY
Scope and Content Note: Reynolds very active in planning the convention. The only issue that stands out from that convention was the question of pre-primary endorsements by the party.

PRE-PRIMARY ENDORSEMENTS
Scope and Content Note: Reynolds supported party endorsements, a more “pragmatic” way. “I thought it was ridiculous to have a political organization that couldn't make any decisions.” The Capital Times opposed party endorsements and carried the day. “Hypocritical” to “beg” people to run for office, with no chance of winning, just to support the movement “and then not openly support them in the primary. That question's never been resolved.” “It's always very difficult for liberals to accept organization.”

ADVISORY COUNCIL TO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: The problem was that many people for one reason or another did not want to identify themselves officially with a political party. “Even today organized labor isn't officially a part of the Democratic Party, yet I think most people would concede that most of the labor leaders are active in the Democratic Party in some form. So, I thought, if they feel more comfortable in meeting under a different flag, well, let them meet under a different flag and we'll be happy to talk to them under that flag.” In the late 1950s the Administrative Committee of the party did meet with an advisory committee of labor and another of businessmen, but “I don't think it was a success.”

MORE ON 1950 CONGRESSIONAL RACE
Scope and Content Note: All state Democratic candidates were very optimistic until the Korean War started in June. “I realized that was the end of that election.” One bad effect of this war was that it ended the focus on domestic issues. “A remarkable group of young people, mainly young lawyers who got involved in that campaign in the eighth district.” A lot of “top-flight” congressional candidates with effective organizations. The organizations were effective because of the work done lining up county candidates during the previous two years.

1950 DEMOCRATIC SENATE PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Four candidates who were optimistic about the party winning the senate seat. Optimistic because of Tom Fairchild's attorney general victory in 1948 and the fact that a Democrat could have been elected lieutenant governor that year also if a different candidate had run. Carl Thompson made a credible run in 1948. The four candidates all got into the campaign prior to the Korean War. “Frankly, from 1946 to 1950...everything was pretty much going towards the Democratic way, indicating that the efforts of the Democratic Organizing Committee were going to be successful in Wisconsin. And I think they probably would have been in 1950, if we hadn't gotten involved in the Korean War.” Dan Hoan told Reynolds that the only reason he entered the campaign “was because he didn't want organized labor to hand pick the candidate and they had picked...Sanderson.” Reynolds does not know why Dilweg entered the campaign; “I don't think he had any real support.” Reynolds supported Fairchild, “without any question...the strongest and most effective candidate.” Labor felt it could control the state if it united with farmers. In 1950 the two groups united on Sanderson. The perception at the time was that he was selected by organized labor “because the farm groups did not have...a statewide base.”

END OF TAPE 62, SIDE 1

INTRODUCTION

VERY FEW BAD GUYS IN WISCONSIN POLITICS

CALIBER OF DEMOCRATIC LEADERS IN WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: Very qualified. Because of World War II, about eight years worth of qualified young people all graduated from the University of Wisconsin within a two year period. Democratic Party was wide open and several old New Dealers welcomed the young people. The main job was to replace the “post office” Democratic county chairmen. Anecdote about a Democratic Party county chairman who was proud because he accepted three hundred dollars for helping a person get a position with the post office but turned the money over to the party. Reynolds told him it was illegal “even though he was so honorable as to turn it into the party.”

DOC CHAIRMEN USUALLY PREVAILED IN CONFLICTS WITH STATUTORY CHAIRMEN IN MATTERS OF PATRONAGE
Scope and Content Note: Appointment of rural mailcarriers “was a burden.” Relieved when the law was changed to remove this patronage system.

DOC IN CHARGE OF APPOINTING NATIONAL COMMITTEEMAN AND COMMITTEE- WOMAN
Scope and Content Note: May have had to go through the formality of having the statutory committee confirm the selection.

IN BROWN COUNTY THE DOC PEOPLE SIMPLY WENT FROM PRECINCT TO PRECINCT TO MAKE SURE SUPPORTERS WERE ELECTED TO THE STATUTORY COMMITTEE

REYNOLDS AS DISTRICT DIRECTOR OF THE OFFICE OF PRICE STABILIZATION
Scope and Content Note: Appointed by President Truman after his defeat in the 1950 congressional race. An administrative position. Under the Hatch Act, “and I took that reasonably serious” and did not actively organize for the party during that period.

1952 SENATORIAL ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: Worked for Fairchild, although a close friend of Henry Reuss. “It was very difficult and painful at times to decide who to support because all these people were really personally very nice and good friends.” “Our friendships survived all these intramural contests, which is in itself quite remarkable.”

IMPACT OF ANTI-COMMUNIST ISSUE IN BROWN COUNTY
Scope and Content Note: The Green Bay Press-Gazette “got pretty irrational.” Inflamed the public. Catholic priest Father Rice went on the radio every night at 10 p.m. with a show called “Let's Think About It,” which was basically a tirade against Democrats for being soft on communism. “So I always think that the issue is more important then Joe. Joe McCarthy, I don't think, was ever pretty much of anything.” Even Robert Taft, supposedly an honorable man, said “If we have to use Joe McCarthy to win, we'll use Joe.” Anti-communism a difficult issue to deal with. Eisenhower had difficulty dealing with it, as is evidenced by his campaign speech in Wisconsin in 1952. This issue was never handled effectively by Democrats.

REYNOLDS, AFTER THE O.P.S. PRACTICED LAW IN GREEN BAY UNTIL 1958
Scope and Content Note: Politics was his hobby. Was pretty resigned during this period to the fact that Democrats would not win during these Republican years. “Fighting a holding action.”

JOE McCARTHY HELPED MAINTAIN THE ENTHUSIASM, 1948-1958, FOR DEMOCRATS
Scope and Content Note: “We had a real enemy...a common enemy...Joe McCarthy.” McCarthy united the Democrats and “brought us strength that we never had before.” “Because of Joe, we became respectable.... The effect of Joe was that a lot of people who normally would not have gotten active in the Democratic Party became active”. “I mean that kept us going. We would get together and denounce Joe McCarthy.... Almost became a preoccupation....” Reynolds did not get involved in the “Joe Must Go” movement. It was an effective propaganda technique, but it had no legal foundation.

THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN BROWN COUNTY IN THE 1950s
Scope and Content Note: Fortunes really slipped beginning in 1951 and 1952. Only three people at the meeting which elected him county chair. The anti-communist movement “was very rough in the Fox River Valley.” 1952 campaign in the Fox Valley was extremely bitter. The conservatives, “I've never seen them so vicious.”

WORK AS COUNTY CHAIR OF THE DOC
Scope and Content Note: Active in organizing campaigns and recruiting candidates. Turned the party “into a social, liberal club and it was pretty effective, as a matter of fact.” Mrs. Dillon was the spirit behind this. Brown County Democratic Party had a very close relationship with the state party “because we all thought of ourselves as part of it.” The Duffy brothers and Reynolds were close to the state level leaders. Overlap of people and ideological commitment.

PARTY FACTIONALISM IN THE 1950s
Scope and Content Note: Reynolds saw the Madison group as more idealistic since they were not the captives of an economic group. Organized labor, as Reynolds perceived it, was less idealistic. “I don't think anyone would really say that George Haberman was a great idealist.” He was influential, however, since there was so little money available to the party. Loosely speaking, Reynolds would divide the factions into two groups--liberals (Madison) and conservatives (Milwaukee and labor). “The conservative ones never had an effective spokes- man until Philleo Nash came to town.” The “Milwaukee ring” and “Madison ring” dichotomy goes back to the days of the old La Follette Progressive Period. “I really felt very bad when Wilkie lost” the state chairmanship to Nash. Reynolds was on the Administrative Committee at this time and believed in a strong chairman. Supported Nash's activities as chair, but did not support his reelection. Did not feel he was effective as chair.

END OF TAPE 62, SIDE 2

INTRODUCTION

MORE ON PARTY FACTIONALISM IN THE 1950s
Scope and Content Note: The approach to handling problems differentiated the two factions more than real differences on issues. “I think the approach of George Haberman and Henry Maier in Milwaukee to the handling of problems was quite different than the approach of Jim Doyle and Tom Fairchild. And I think if anyone knows those four people, why you'd get a pretty good idea what I mean.” Reynolds has difficulty, however, in pointing to specific examples of differences on issues. Haberman “probably was a Republican at heart.” Liberals in the labor movement in those days were the Autoworkers (UAW) and the Steelworkers. They cooperated well with the Madison liberals. During the Kohler Strike, the UAW sent many staff people to Wisconsin who became active in the liberal wing of the Democratic Party. The building trades, however, were more conservative in their approach, more interested in job security and other bread and butter union issues rather than the unstated objective of the DOC, which was “to solve our social and political and economic problems in some form or manner similar to the Swedish model.” Harvey Kitzman, of the UAW, supported Horace Wilkie for party chair; “he was always part of our group.”

REYNOLDS' DECISION TO RUN FOR ATTORNEY GENERAL, 1958
Scope and Content Note: After running for Congress in 1950, he came to realize that once a person runs for Congress, it is difficult to run for a lesser office, and therefore he did not run for state senate or district attorney, even though he was interested in those offices. “I was never a reluctant candidate. No one ever drafted me for anything.” His only concern about running for attorney general in 1958 was whether his good friend Frank Nikolay, who had run for the office twice previously would be running again; Reynolds would not run against Nikolay. Reynolds, in 1956, had discussed with Proxmire Nikolay's independent candidacy against primary winner Robert La Follette Sucher and had urged Nikolay to enter the contest as an independent. Sucher “enjoyed a very bad reputation,” and had emotional and personal problems. Reynolds wanted to run for attorney general because “it's almost the ideal office for a lawyer. It's by far the most interesting job, in retrospect,...I ever had because it's in your field, it's in the legal field. It's a public policy job to a greater extent than is realized by most people. You're in the middle of politics and you can have a private life as well as a public life. As a governor, you have no private life at all.” Felt at home with the office because his father had been attorney general and he had worked in the attorney general's office as a student.

1958 ATTORNEY GENERAL ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: Primary opponent was Christ Seraphim. Shaped up as a Madison ring against Milwaukee ring contest. Labor endorsed Seraphim and the Milwaukee organization got behind Seraphim, and most everyone else supported Reynolds. “Not that it was such an important race, but it was the only race going.” Democrats felt they had a pretty good chance in 1958. McCarthy had died and Proxmire had replaced him. “The issue of communism that we found so difficult to deal with had diminished.” The support of Eisenhower and the Republicans was diminishing.

PROXMIRE'S 1957 SENATORIAL RACE
Scope and Content Note: Television was new, and Proxmire realized the value of television. Proxmire visited Green Bay at least once a month to appear on Green Bay television. Bought his own time “and he needed a straight man to ask him questions and I usually was the straight man.” Almost a captive audience because there was only one station in Green Bay for a while and everybody watched it. Reuss wanted to be the candidate to run for McCarthy's seat, so he came up with the idea of holding meetings around the state to sound out the opinions of people in the party as to whom should be the candidate. Reuss deferred to Zablocki, thinking he would never run for the office, but Zablocki surprised everyone and entered the contest. All the political activity in 1957 well prepared the party for the 1958 elections.

THE IMPORTANCE OF A POLITICAL PARTY TO A CANDIDATE
Scope and Content Note: Hard to appreciate. Candidates really know very few people, yet party activists turn out in every county to work for their candidates.

CLEM ZABLOCKI AND THE 1957 PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Not a Madison versus Milwaukee primary. Reynolds always thought highly of Zablocki. Zablocki was underrated “because he couldn't intellectualize with the intellectuals or with the newspaper people.” He usually voted right and worked against Joe McCarthy. “I felt sorry for Clem for being in that campaign.” Zablocki ran because “what happens in politics is that everyone that you talk to tells you you can win...and those that don't think you can win, don't say anything to you.” That is why politicians have to hire pollsters. There was a lot of sentiment in the party at the time that Proxmire, having lost three times, was unelectable and that Reuss was the strongest candidate. Reynolds supported Reuss during the “Sounding Board” meetings.

1954 DOYLE-PROXMIRE DEMOCRATIC GUBERNATORIAL PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Seemed to be a logical step for Doyle to run for governor, after being party chair. Around the state it was perceived in 1952 that Proxmire ran because no one else wanted to. Also, “Prox didn't come out of the old cadre of people who had gotten to know each other quite well in the DOC.” Doyle was confident of victory in the primary. Reynolds supported Doyle, but did not have much hope that he could win.

REYNOLDS ACHIEVEMENTS AS ATTORNEY GENERAL
Scope and Content Note: Refused to represent the Board of Regents when they fired a professor from Superior State College. And apparently this hadn't been done in Wisconsin. “...The bureaucrats...always felt they could do what they wanted to do and the attorney general's office would automatically represent them.” Reynolds felt the Regents were wrong. This was one of the first issues he faced. The attorney general's office had become rather passive. Another case involved the head of the Retirement Board denying a teacher in La Crosse her pension because the school board had not mailed in the money. “Number one, we did assert the role the attorney general's office is one to make sure that the state government complied with the law.” Many interesting cases. 1960 investigation of the money pumped into Wisconsin on behalf of Hubert Humphrey's presidential campaign, involving money from the Teamsters. “It was a very active office.”

1950 PRESIDENTIAL RACE IN WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: Reynolds supported John Kennedy. Met Kennedy during the 1957 Proxmire campaign when he came to Green Bay. Kennedy people contacted him later.

END OF TAPE 63, SIDE 1

INTRODUCTION

MORE ON THE 1960 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN IN WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: Kennedy people contacted him in 1958 before he had announced for attorney general. He wrote back saying he felt it would not be to Kennedy's advantage to have another Irish Catholic heading his campaign in Wisconsin, and suggested Ivan Nestingen, mayor of Madison. Unbeknownist to Reynolds, Pat Lucey was making the same suggestion to the Kennedy people. Ideologically “I think...I was probably more comfortable with Hubert Humphrey than with Jack Kennedy.” Recognized Kennedy's political magnatism and his electability, however. Supported Kennedy on the basis that he could be elected and Humphrey probably could not. Reynolds was confident going into the 1960 convention that Kennedy would get the nomination because he was the only electable candidate. “The idea of nominating people that you can't elect, that's something that we didn't do in the Democratic Party until years later.”

SALES TAX
Scope and Content Note: Still favors a progressive tax, but, practically speaking, “today I don't think that you can run a society with a progressive tax because people revolt.” In 1962, he ran for governor in support of repealing the sales tax, or at least preventing its expansion. The problem was that its repeal would require substitution of another kind of tax.

ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS GOVERNOR
Scope and Content Note: “To get through the increase in the budget that we got through was a tremendous achievement.” Went all out to expand the state college system facilities because of the rapid growth in Wiscon- sin's school age population. Also, expanded the institutions for the mentally ill and the retarded. Despite a battle with the Republican legislature, “we got the budget we wanted.”

DISAPPOINTMENTS AS GOVERNOR
Scope and Content Note: Unable to modernize Wisconsin's highway system. Unable to get the Aragon Laboratories nuclear research facility located in Wisconsin. Went all out to get Aragon, “but we were competing with Mayor Daley. I came home with the Hoan bridge--every politician in Milwaukee takes credit for the bridge, but I came home with the bridge--and Daley got the Aragon Laboratories.” Kennedy “was a delightful person to talk to about things because, having come out of Massachusetts, he understood a lot about the realities of government, politics. You got to have something for your people.” Kennedy asked where the Hoan bridge went to; Reynolds said, “'Well, the problem is it doesn't go any place. It goes through Clem Zablocki's district.' So, he understood that.” Reynolds still feels Wisconsin foolishly promotes tourism without providing adequate roads for tourists.

NO EXPLANATION FOR HIS DEFEAT IN 1964

APPOINTED FEDERAL JUDGE
Scope and Content Note: President Johnson did not want to appoint Jim Doyle or John Reynolds, but senators usually control these matters and the two Wisconsin senators told Johnson they wanted Doyle and Reynolds.

RETROSPECTIVE ANALYSIS OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: The mobility of people and capital in the United States was unforeseen. This prevents Wisconsin from having a tax program in the state which is significantly different from the other states. “So that the role of the state government in actually distinguishing itself in terms of tax policy, and social policy, and educational policy, is a lot less than we thought it was.” The question of civil rights was one which divided Wisconsin Democrats, with the Milwaukee group being resistant and much less liberal than the Madison group. Increase in Wisconsin's black population was another unforeseen problem and “we certainly haven't been able to cope with that very well.” “The greatest tragedy of my generation is the decline of public education.” It used to be assumed that Wisconsin would have the best educational system in the country, but somewhere along the line it was decided that the state could no longer afford to have the best educational system.

END OF INTERVIEW