Subseries: Warren Sawall, 1985 March 27
Note: Access online.

INTRODUCTION

BIOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Grew up in the Upper Pennisula of Michigan. Parents not politically active. Graduated from high school in 1941. Attended Ripon College for two quarters and then entered the service. Fighter pilot with the Eighth Air Force in England. Shot down in February, 1945; three months in a prisoner of war camp. In that P.O.W. camp, “a lot of young men suddenly wondered what the hell all the fighting was about and why they were involved in this.” A lot of discussions in the P.O.W. camp about government. As a result, when he returned to school (UW-Madison) in January 1946, he majored in political science. Graduated in June 1948. Got a job as a reporter on the Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune. Forty dollars a week.

BREAK UP OF THE PROGRESSIVE PARTY LEFT PEOPLE SEARCHING FOR A POLITICAL HOME
Scope and Content Note: Jerry Fox and Bob Tehan encouraged them to make their home in the Democratic Party. Old Democrats mainly interested in patronage.

SAWALL'S POLITICS IN 1948
Scope and Content Note: Not very active, having just graduated and gotten a job as a reporter. In the precinct in which he lived, there were three votes cast for Norman Thomas for president--his, his wife's, and that of another reporter on the Daily Tribune.

1948 ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: Nelson, Ruth Doyle, Lucey and others put their names on the ballot, never expecting to win. Everyone encouraged by Carl Thompson's showing in the gubernatorial race.

HOW/WHY SAWALL GOT ACTIVE IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: “The appalling realization” that, outside Dane and Milwaukee, there were almost no Democratic candidates for county offices. Had been reading about the DOC.

BREAK UP OF THE PROGRESSIVE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Years later Sawall saw a picture of the 1946 convention delegates and “all of these men were older; there were very few young people in that group; these were all people fifty plus, no young people. So you could see that they weren't attracting youth and that was one of the reasons that they were going down.”

ORGANIZING A DOC UNIT IN WOOD COUNTY
Scope and Content Note: Contacted Milton Schneider and his wife Gloria. Then contacted people in Madison, and organized a meeting, which was chaired by Horace Wilkie. Chairman of the Wood County Democratic Party Statutory Committee was Clarence Mitten, from Marshfield. “We recognized that, if Mitten really wanted to go along with this, the logical and sensible thing to do to make it work right off the bat was to elect him the first chairman of the Wood County Democratic Organizing Committee.... That made it a lot easier to bring all these elements together.” County remained Republican for several years, however.

BALANCING HIS JOB AS A REPORTER AND HIS INVOLVEMENT IN THE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: He reported on political events and, in retrospect, feels there may wellhave been a conflict of interest. The paper made a point afterwards when hiring reporters to make sure it was understood that they were not to be active in partisan politics. For him, however, the management did not want to make an issue of it.

1949 DOC FOUNDING CONVENTION
Scope and Content Note: “It was pretty well understood that from then on the statutory organization would not control patronage. It would be the Democratic Organizing Committee.” Jerry Fox, chairman of the statutory party, was elected chair of the DOC and many county statutory chairs were elected to positions in the DOC. The Administrative Committee, which was elected at this convention, however, “was more DOC oriented than statutory committee oriented.” By a margin of one vote, Sawall was elected congressional district chairman, which provided him a seat on the Administrative Committee. “Of course, I was twenty-six years old, didn't have any money, didn't even have a car. I wasn't certain how I was going to do all that. My wife wasn't very happy with me.”

SAWALL BECOMES EDITOR OF THE WISCONSIN DEMOCRAT
Scope and Content Note: Was being published monthly, largely through the volunteer effort of Miles McMillin. Sawall was appointed to theeditorial board, which decided the work was too much for a volunteer. The editorial board then selected Sawall as the first paid editor, in May 1950. He moved to Madison. “That was an exciting year, 1950.”

1950 U.S. SENATE PRIMARY IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: That campaign “kind of typified all of these groups that were in the Democratic Party....” A farm and labor coalition, along with some Milwaukee Democrats like Andy Biemiller, put forth William Sanderson. Dilweg “was a traditional, statutory Democrat, rather conversative, really.” Hoan, of course, was formerly a Socialist. “Milwaukee Socialists are a breed unto themselves.... Almost all small businessmen, entrepreneurs, thinkers. They come from a heritage that is almost unbelieveably thoughtful, interested in good government; and that has marked Milwaukee...down through the years.” “This really was a very aggressive campaign among those four people with a lot of acrimony at times and a lot of friend-ships that were kind of split.” Examples of how various leaders in Madison split between Sanderson and Fairchild. Labor people wanted to run Fairchild for governor, put up a big “Fairchild for Governor” sign in the balcony at the convention. Fairchild supporters tore it down; “it almost came to fisticuffs.”

WISCONSIN DEMOCRAT DURING THE 1950 CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: A special issue. Front page covered the nominees for governor and U.S. senator. Page two was on the congressional and legislative candidates. The third page covered local candidates. Did forty editions of that issue in order to cover forty different counties. Charged the local organizations enough money “that we got the till filled up for the paper quite well.” Ivan Nestingen was very active and helpful in this effort. He came in every evening for several days to wrap the various editions up for bulk mailing to the counties. Then about one or two o'clock in the morning Sawall would run the bundles down to the post office. The other five pages in that campaign issue were devoted to issues. After Fairchild won the senatorial primary, the acrimony ended.

RESULTS OF THE 1950 ELECTION WERE DISAPPOINTING
Scope and Content Note: “I recall at the time saying, 'I can't see any way that an electorate as intelligent as Wisconsin is going to turn down Tom Fairchild for Alexander Wiley.' And Miles McMillin kept saying, 'Yeah. Well, He's been being elected since 1938 and I don't think you're necessarily right.' Well, Miles was right.... And that put us in kind of a doldrums, although we still looked forward to 1952....”

JOE McCARTHY
Scope and Content Note: “A great thing that kept the Democrats going in that period, I think was McCarthy. There was a united effort to turn him out of office.” Democratic “Truth Squad” followed McCarthy to LaCrosse--Miles McMillin, Gaylord Nelson, Bill Proxmire. Sawall handled the sound for their loudspeaker.

END OF TAPE 57, SIDE 1

INTRODUCTION

1952 SENATORIAL ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: “By that time...the paper was not in good shape. The party was not in good shape financially.” Getting difficult to maintain an office staff. “We had a very wonderful executive secretary there named Fran Rose, who worked very hard for very little money to run that party.” Fairchild was reluctant to run. As candidacy filing time approached, “I remember Ery Bruner and others were working on Tom pretty hard.” Had to file the nomination papers on a Monday; he finally agreed to run on Friday. “Well, we got in cars and we went all over the state to get the proper number of nomination papers signed in the necessary counties.” Lucey took an active role in the Fairchild campaign. Sawall ran campaign headquarters. Sawall estimates the campaign spent only about $30,000. First campaign in which the Democrats used some television.

SAWALL BIOGRAPHY, 1952-1960
Scope and Content Note: After the 1952 election, the DOC had no money to continue him as editor. He got a job with a publisher of trade publications, December 1, 1952. Worked for this company in Madison and New York state. Returned to Madison in summer of 1954. Took a job in Ohio in the beginning of 1955. Worked for this company until 1960, when he returned to Wisconsin to work for the party, concentrating on the Kennedy campaign.

KENNEDY CAMPAIGN, 1960
Scope and Content Note: Worked under Patrick Lucey and K. Lemoyne Billings, Kennedy's Wisconsin campaign director. Fundraising. In October put on a one hundred dollar a ticket fundraiser in Milwaukee. Joint headquarters with Governor Nelson in Milwaukee.

SAWALL WENT TO WORK ON GOVERNOR NELSON'S STAFF IN APRIL 1961
Scope and Content Note: Worked for the party for about four months after the 1960 election; then joined Nelson's staff as an executive assistant--answering mail, attending meetings on the governor's behalf.

1962 CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: Worked on Nelson's campaign for the senate. Worked largely in Milwaukee with labor.

WORKED ON NELSON'S SENATORIAL STAFF UNTIL DECEMBER 1979
Scope and Content Note: Did a variety of things; wound up concentrating on agricultural issues, which led to his current position with the U.S. Department of Agriculture.

SAWALL BORN MAY 3, 1923

SAWALL'S VOTE FOR NORMAN THOMAS IN 1948 AND HIS ENTRY INTO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Considered himself a Democrat at the time, “but for a variety of reasons, I was unhappy with the Truman administration.” “A youthful protest vote.” Prior to 1948 pretty much considered himself an independent. What drove him into the Democratic Party was the new leadership which it was attracting and the one-sided county slates available in most counties. “I believed, if you were going to have a viable party or a viable opposition, it had to start at the local level; you had to do something about getting those people active at the local level and thinking of building a party there. And eventually that happened throughout the whole state.”

SAWALL'S INVOLVEMENT IN ORGANIZING LOCAL DOC UNITS OUTSIDE WOOD COUNTY
Scope and Content Note: Did some. Nine of the ten counties in his congressional district were organized by the time of the 1949 convention.

MILTON SCHNEIDER
Scope and Content Note: Originally from Milwaukee. Went to work for his father-in-law's wholesale plumbing supply business in Wisconsin Rapids. Had been a Democrat prior to 1948. Accidently ran into Schneider's wife, Gloria, when out shopping. The Schneiders had heard of the Sawalls and vice versa. Became friend's “and from there the political activism followed.”

POLITICAL ACTIVISM AT “BADGER VILLAGE” IN 1948
Scope and Content Note: “Badger Village” was a housing facility at Badger Ordnance Works, Baraboo, where 3000 veterans and their families lived, commuting daily to the UW campus in Madison. People there were disturbed by Bob La Follette's defeat in 1946 and “became alarmed” by MacArthur's presence in the 1948 Republican primary in Wisconsin. Rallied around Harold Stassen.

VOTED FOR LA FOLLETTE IN THE 1946 PRIMARY AND MCMURRAY IN THE GENERAL ELECTION

RELATIONSHIP OF MELVIN LAIRD AND GAYLORD NELSON
Scope and Content Note: “They had some wonderful debates” in the state senate. Would have tremendous debates on the floor of the legislature, which would carry over to the Park Hotel bar for all the partisans except Nelson and Laird who would retire to Nelson's apartment. “Laird and Nelson'd go over there and drink beer and laugh about all the trouble they'd caused.” Friendly antagonists. There was an informal group, involving some very distinguished Wisconsinites, 'and once a year, after Nelson came here, they had an outing that was quite a male outing. And I recall one time it ended up in Laird's suite at the Pentagon when he was Secretary of Defense, late at night.” Anecdote about the flight to Washington, D.C., after the 1968 election. Sawall, because the Nelson campaign had a little money left over, flew first class and so did Laird on the same flight. Proxmire was also on that flight, and Sawall and Laird watched him walk past to coach class. 'We had a delightful conversation on that trip.... He says, 'There are two things we have to do.... We got to get a Democrat in the cabinet and...we have to get out of Viet Nam.'”

WOOD COUNTY UNIONS WHICH WERE ACTIVE IN FORMING THE COUNTY DOC
Scope and Content Note: Paper mill unions. Machinsts. “That group was just waiting to get into the thing.' Anecdote about John Sullivan who was president of the central labor body. Sullivan was working on setting up the Wood County DOC, when Sawall saw a story listing Sullivan as a delegate to the Republican state convention. Sullivan denied it; Sawall wrote a story about it; and the local Republican leader screamed that Sawall was a political activist writing about politics. Sullivan had been elected a delegate without his consent. Even though Sullivan was a signed-up member of the Democratic party, the compromise used to cool the situation was denial that Sullivan was a member of either party.

OTHER WOOD COUNTY DOC ACTIVISTS
Scope and Content Note: The mayor of Wisconsin Rapids, although sub rosa since his was a non-partisan office. The city clerk, Nils Justeson, who ran as a Democrat for secretary of state in 1950; later became mayor of Wisconsin Rapids.

END OF TAPE 57, SIDE 2

INTRODUCTION

DOC AND PATRONAGE
Scope and Content Note: A rather informal system of recommendations from the county DOC to the district DOC to the state chairman, who “had all of the input and said 'This is the way it will go.” Sawall was quite involved in postmastership patronage when he first came to Washington, working for Senator Nelson. Anecdote about a Marshfield post-mastership appointment. Nelson, Laird, and the community all agreed on the same person, but he was not a veteran and veteran points counted for a lot when taking the civil service exam. So, he was made acting postmaster and the exam was stalled until everyone assumed he was the postmaster; then the exam was given and he was the only one who took it. He died at an early age and the same process of stalling was used to insure that his wife succeeded him. Examples of patronage: after the 1950 election, Tom Fairchild became the U.S. attorney for the western district of Wisconsin, and he was followed in that job by Frank Nikolay.

HAVING JERRY FOX AS CHAIR OF BOTH THE DOC AND THE STATUTORY COMMITTEE EASED THE DOC INTO RECOGNITION AS THE PARTY IN WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: “The power very quickly moved over the other way. There were contests below the state level that weren't so easily solved, where old statutory people on congressional races and so forth wanted to throw their weight around. But it wasn't such a big problem because our problem at that point was getting good candidates, whether they were statutory people, so to speak, or voluntary people, to run for Congress in various places.” By the time Jim Doyle became DOC chair, the DOC “was the Democratic Party of Wisconsin and the statutory people recognized it.”

DOC FINANCES, circa 1950
Scope and Content Note: Contributions, some dinners. The Democrat “was kind of self-sustaining at that point.”

SAWALL AS EDITOR OF THE WISCONSIN DEMOCRAT
Scope and Content Note: A fulltime job during the 1950 campaign. Other times he would spend some of his time attending local meetings and trying to encourage activity, “kind of a semi-organizer too.” “Pretty complete” freedom in terms of editorial policy. Editorial board mainly concerned with financial matters. Paper was quoted elsewhere only twice and “yet people didn't like it.” Once was a story on the three major factions supporting different presidential candidates in 1952. Each faction thought the story was slanted against them. One woman was chewing Sawall out at a meeting and asked him who gave him authority to do the story; Jim Doyle spoke up saying he had, even though he had not. The other story listed people who had low-numbered license plates. Andy Biemiller, who had license number 5, “was furious with me.” “Anyway you were kind of hamstrung by that sort of thing. What you were supposed to do was not really be very interesting.” Paper used “a lot of stuff from the Democratic National Committee.” Also, McMillin and many others contributed materials. Fran Rose and Virginia Hart did not write for the paper, but “they were...two of the most sensational human beings I've ever worked with, both of them. Just dedicated, hardworking, bright.” Subscription to the paper was two dollars a year. Made money on the campaign issue because of bulk mailing and thousands of extra copies. Apparently he overcharged the counties on the campaign issue, but no one complained.

1968 CAMPAIGN TRAIN
Scope and Content Note: Took Sawall a year to organize this three day campaign train. It was for Nelson and gubernatorial candidate Bronson La Follette. Left Racine on a Friday morning and ended up in Madison on Sunday afternoon. Cost $18,000. Loaded the train with local candidates prior to pulling into each stop and took them back home prior to the next stop. Involved over thirty buses bringing in candidates and hauling away other candidates. Lunches, dinners, and big rallies. It worked so well and provided such good publicity for local candidates that the state Democratic Party decided to pick up the tab rather than having either the Nelson or La Follette campaigns pay for it.

DOC AS A MEMBERSHIP ORGANIZATION
Scope and Content Note: Anyone who would pay the one dollar membership fee had a right to attend meetings, speak, and vote. More democratically run than the Republican Voluntary Committee.

MORE ON 1950 CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: Sawall supported Fairchild, but kept a low profile because he was a party employee. Was more involved in the Thompson campaign.

FACTIONALISM IN THE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Based on issues and personalities. In Milwaukee some of it was based on the rivalry between the AFL and CIO Auto Workers.

AFTER PROXMIRE'S VICTORY IN THE 1957 SPECIAL ELECTION, THE REPUBLICAN LEGISLATURE HURRIEDLY CHANGED THE LAW SO THAT THE GOVERNOR COULD FILL U.S. SENATE SEAT VACANCIES BY APPOINTMENT
Scope and Content Note: The Democrats, with Proxmire's and Lester Johnson's victories, were demonstrating good strength in special elections. The Republicans were concerned about Alexander Wiley's advanced age, so they changed the law in the hope that they could keep his seat Republican should he die. To their surprise, a Democrat, Gaylord Nelson, was elected governor soon after changing the law.

INTERNAL POLITICS OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF WISCONSIN

END OF TAPE 58, SIDE 1

INTRODUCTION

LUCEY-NELSON FEUD
Scope and Content Note: “When you're not actually winning elections, it's easier to be close together than when you start to win.” Before he left Wisconsin, the party was like “an enlarged family.” When Jean Lucey had one of her children while Pat was out of town, Gaylord Nelson got up at four in the morning to take her to the hospital. “When I came back that had disappeared.” Lucey and Nelson were no longer “close.” They had a different view of politics. Lucey felt the Connecticut Democratic Party was the right model; the party chair there made all the appointments, not the Governor. “Well, that isn't the Wisconsin tradition. And that isn't the Progressive tradition under which Gaylord Nelson was brought up.”

HOW NELSON WAS ABLE TO GET HIS APPOINTMENTS THROUGH THE REPUBLICAN STATE SENATE
Scope and Content Note: “...by balancing off the people he chose--from old Progressives, from this to that; where he broke down the Republican solidarity in the state senate and was able to make some incredible appointments.” John Reynolds, on the other hand, was too partisan in his appointments; this became a partial cause of his reelection defeat. Nelson put his appointments together as a package, with various people in the package that one Republican or another could not vote against.

NELSON LOST FIVE DAYS OF U.S. SENATE SENIORITY
Scope and Content Note: When elected to the senate, his term began January 3, 1963, but his term as governor did not end until January 8. The lieutenant governor and the state senate were Republican. “He didn't dare resign that office and take the senate seat on January 3 and let Warren Knowles and that state senate have five days. They'd have ramrodded through a whole bunch of Republican appointees and John Reynolds wouldn't have had anything to do.”

THE 1960 DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Lucey's view of how the party should be run “was part of the Kennedy thing.” There was a lot of pressure on Nelson to support Hubert Humphrey--labor people, liberal Democrats. Lucey pressured Nelson to support Kennedy. Nelson took a neutral stand. “A lot of animosity resulted from that situation.” “I'm saying, I was just kind of appalled that those friendships had dissolved.”

AFTER THE 1948 ELECTION, BOB TEHAN SAID IT WOULD TAKE TEN MORE YEARS TO ELECT A DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR IN WISCONSIN

DEMOCRATIC BREAKTHROUGH IN 1958
Scope and Content Note: Republican leadership had become “a little bit moribund” and the Democratic leadership was more dynamic, charismatic, and better at oratory. It took ten years because it required that much time to build the party at the local level.

TOM FAIRCHILD AND JIM DOYLE
Scope and Content Note: “It was a bad mistake, in terms of fundraising, that Fairchild waited so long to enter the 1952 senatorial primary. Tom Fairchild was one of the most outstanding men I've met. So Is Jim Doyle. Neither one of them's a good campaigner.” Fairchild had issued an opinion, as attorney general, which was very unpopular, only a couple months before the senate election, regarding radio giveaway shows. “I know that he was kind of urged not to make that announcement prior to the election. That's not Tom Fairchild's style. If something's in violation of the law, and he's the attorney general of the state, and it's his responsibility to act on that, he's going to act on it.” Doyle was the same way. He thought it was “unseemly” to have a car top sign on his car promoting his own candidacy when he ran in the 1954 gubernatorial primary.

MORE ON THE 1952 SENATORIAL PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Sawall and others felt very strongly about getting Fairchild into the campaign. “I just thought he was the viable candidate.” Pat Lucey managed the Fairchild campaign and Sawall ran the office. It was not within Fairchild's personality to run a campaign which involved personal attacks.

SAWALL WAS OUTSIDE OF WISCONSIN FROM JUNE 1953 TO APRIL 1954 AND AGAIN FROM JANUARY 1955 to AUGUST 1960
Scope and Content Note: Was not active in the 1954 campaign. Supportive of the “Joe Must Go” movement, but was not active in it.

SAWALL'S WORK FOR GOVERNOR NELSON
Scope and Content Note: An executive assistant. Bill Fairfield, Nelson's press secretary, was the “key guy.” Sawall did some agricultural work and a lot of contacts with labor unions. Also, a lot of Democratic Party contacts. When Sawall returned to Wisconsin in 1960, he did not want to ask Nelson for a job because they had been close social friends.

SAWALL'S POSITION VIS-A-VIS THE LUCEY-NELSON FUED
Scope and Content Note: “Sometimes I felt that that was one of the reasons I was brought back.” When he arrived back in Madison, he stayed with the Luceys. Stopped to see Governor Nelson, who invited him to the executive mansion after work. Sawall said he was staying with the Luceys and Nelson called and invited them too. “On surface it was cordial enough.”

MORE ON THE IMPACT OF THE 1960 PRESIDENTIAL PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Miles McMillin and Lucey, who had been very good friends, became “totally antagonistic toward one another.” Jim Doyle now was less active in the party; was a lawyer with Lucey Realty as one of his clients. “I'm glad I wasn't there” during the primary.

SAWALL'S WORK FOR SENATOR NELSON
Scope and Content Note: An executive assistant, at first. Did a lot of contact work with people back in Wisconsin through the 1968 election. After that did more Washington-oriented work, issues work. Three main issues areas: 1) labor and public welfare committee; 2) subcommittee on migratory labor; 3) agriculture.

TODAY SAWALL IS A PUBLIC AFFAIRS SPECIALIST WITH THE AGRICULTURAL MARKETING SERVICE
Scope and Content Note: This section of the Department of Agriculture, among other things, administers forty-five federal milk marketing orders throughout the country. “But the Reagan administration has decimated our public affairs operation. When I came here, we had forty-seven people on that staff, including five regional offices across the country.” For the last year, he has been the only one of the forty-seven who remains. Now he does about three hundred press releases a year.

SAWALL NEVER RAN FOR PUBLIC OFFICE HIMSELF
Scope and Content Note: “I just never pictured myself as a candidate.”

WORKING TO BUILD THE DOC WAS EXHILARATING
Scope and Content Note: “A common drive,” despite the differences of people.

SOMETIMES HE IS DISAPPOINTED AT THE LACK OF PROGRESS MADE SINCE 1948, LIKE IN THE AREA OF CIVIL RIGHTS

END OF INTERVIEW