INTERVIEWER'S INTRODUCTION (12/11/1981 session)

SIGMAN FAMILY ORIGINS IN POLAND
Scope and Content Note: Family lived in Bresk-Litovsk where David Sigman, youngest of six children born in Poland, born in 1905. Father 17, mother 15 when married.

FATHER'S ARRIVAL IN UNITED STATES
Scope and Content Note: Faced with possible military duty, father migrated to U.S., worked in rendering department of packing plant. After short period, immigration authorities put tag reading “Hamilton Manufacturing Company, Two Rivers, Wisconsin” on father and placed him on train.

FATHER WORKS IN TWO RIVERS; SENDS FOR REST OF FAMILY
Scope and Content Note: Saved nearly everything from one dollar per day earnings at Hamilton Manufacturing Co. while boarding with Vits family; in six months had saved enough to send for family. Hamilton plant critical to Two Rivers economy.

FAMILY OF MODEST MEANS HAS STRONG EDUCATIONAL VALUES
Scope and Content Note: All Sigman children attended school because of parents' strong belief in education. Family moved into very small house with no indoor pluming, water, or electricity. Oldest sons worked way through University of Wisconsin; second oldest brother, Sam, who became secretary to Congressman Geroge Schneider, had strong influence on David.

SAM SIGMAN A UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSON LIBERAL CLUB ACTIVIST
Scope and Content Note: Helped to make arrangements for Eugene V. Debs to speak on campus against administrator's wishes; also helped to arrange for speech on campus by Kate Richards O'Hare.

ORIGINS OF SIGMAN FAMILY POLITICAL LIBERALISM
Scope and Content Note: Parents worked hard to support eleven children, had no time to be politically active. Children also worked hard, cutting lawns and doing other tasks. Recalls purchase of Isinglass-faced coal stove for bean-picking wages. Father encouraged David to read such authors as Tolstoy; oldest brother became journalist after attending Marquette University and covered Gary strike as newspaper guild member; attempted to begin magazine called Wisconsin Boy.

POST WORLD WAR I ORGANIZING ACTIVITY BY WORKERS IN TWO RIVERS
Scope and Content Note: Workers “even in Two Rivers... “ at the Aluminum Goods Manufacturing Company went on strike. Recalls visiting picket line, where women did most of picketing and threw paper in eyes of scabs. Ultimately, state militia sent in to break the strike, after which some individuals never got jobs back. “I never forgot that ....”

NO TRADE UNION SPEECHES IN HIGH SCHOOL
Scope and Content Note: Influence of large manufacturers in Two Rivers prevented such speeches.

SOCIALISTS IN TWO RIVERS-MANITOWOC AREA
Scope and Content Note: Not personally aware of any; David Sigman himself accused of being a socialist but “I never was a member of the Socialist Party.” Inspired to run for the legislature in the future while attending University of Wisconsin in the mid-1920's.

HELPING ATHENA LITERARY SOCIETY TO HOLD SYMPOSIUM
Scope and Content Note: Sigman and four other students, one a strongly anti-Chiang K'ai-shek communist, led Literary Society attempt to hold symposium on education in newly-completed Memorial Union with such participants as John Dewey, Alexander Meiklejohn, and Professor Hart. Recalls how president Glenn Frank attempted to persuade him to let symposium be administered by University officials.

GROWING UP JEWISH IN TWO RIVERS
Scope and Content Note: Sigmans one of three Jewish families in Two Rivers; about thirty or so Jewish families in nearby Manitowoc. Learned recently from pamphlet published by Manitowoc County Historical Society that early Manitowoc Jewish family named Mann responsible for underwriting cost of public library there. Sigman's parents very religious; children sometimes called names, not out of hatred so much as ignorance.

SUCCESSION OF SIGMANS AS LEADING ORATORS IN PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL
Scope and Content Note: Sigman brothers successful in oratory and debate and as class leaders.

DISCRIMINATION COMES FROM IGNORANCE
Scope and Content Note: Learned that himself while working on sailing ship between Manitowoc and Chicago for $77.50 per month, room and board. Own lack of forethought provided an experience about “what it meant to discriminate.”

CLARIFICATION OF BIRTH DATE
Scope and Content Note: August 1, 1905.

REVIEW OF DAVID SIGMAN'S WORK EXPERIENCE AND EDUCATION
Scope and Content Note: Attended UW for total of three and one-half years between 1923 and 1932.

END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1

INTERVIEWER'S INTRODUCTION

MOST INFLUENTIAL PEOPLE TO YOUTHFUL DAVID SIGMAN
Scope and Content Note: Sam Sigman; Robert M. La Follette, Sr., whom he heard speak from steps of county courthouse and who once put his hand on fourteen-year-old David's head after a speech, indicating how country needed involved young people. Recalls La Follette's casket being transported from Madison railroad depot to State Capitol. Influenced also by Alexander Meiklejohn, who read at Unitarian Church and lectured at UW Experimental College. Many “left-wingers” enrolled in College; particularly recalls Zona Gale scholar Carroll Blair. [Later, Fred Blair, chairman of the Wisconsin Communist Party.]

ANECDOTE ABOUT CARROLL BLAIR WHILE SIGMAN CAMPAIGNING FOR ASSEMBLY SEAT IN 1930
Scope and Content Note: Sigman ran as anti-business Progressive-Republican; Sigman's research in income tax reports showed workers paying more tax on incomes than business managers; opposed by industries and Two Rivers Reporter. Reporter erred by asserting Sigman gesticulated like a “wild Frenchman” in assembly district filled with French-Canadians. Blair, Communist Party candidate for Governor, appeared in Two Rivers and gave Sigman a “kiss of death” endorsement in the midst of a strong Catholic electorate. “I don't know if it was deliberate or not....” Much admiration for Blair despite political differences through the years because “I admire someone who sticks to his principles.”

MORE ON 1930 ASSEMBLY CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: Won by wide margin [3458-2911, according to 1931 Wisconsin Blue Book] despite fierce opposition, including one other Two Rivers Jew, scrap aluminum buyer Schwartz. Sigman, harrassed by Schwartz, took up latter's challenge to read publicly income tax report of Schwartz Manufacturing Company. Recalls Judge Rosenberry asking him if he was old enough to be an assemblyman before swearing-in ceremony at Madison.

WISCONSIN LABOR DISPUTES BILL
Scope and Content Note: Co-sponsored by Sigman and Herman Severson in 1935 and again in 1937. Worked very closely with Wisconsin Federation of Labor (WSFL), a “very progressive” labor federation with such individuals as Henry Ohl, J. J. Handley, and J. F. Friedrick who “were scholars in their own way.” Ohl outstanding; used English language with great care. Friedrick, like Ohl from the typographical union, largely self-educated after sixth grade but “by his bootstraps” ultimately became president of the University of Wisconsin board of regents. Main dispute by mid-1930's over “recognition of the labor movement,” not wages or working conditions. Growth of labor movement so rapid that many jurisdictional disputes developed; WSFL executive board favored legislation for state intervention in labor disputes. Dean Garrison, Edwin Witte, and Arthur Altmeyer developed bill with WSFL endorsement; sent to Sigman as chairman of assembly labor committee. Co-author Severson a rural Progressive with strong labor sympathies. Generally strong labor support at hearings, although building trades led by Peter Shoemann “didn't want to be part of the Labor Disputes Act.” Legislation prevented many strikes.

SENATE CONSERVATIVES OPPOSED LABOR DISPUTES BILL
Scope and Content Note: If passed, would settle question of worker representation, de facto recognition of the labor movement.

IMPACT OF NATIONAL INDUSTRIAL RECOVERY ACT (NIRA) AND OTHER LABOR LEGISLATION ON UNION ORGANIZING
Scope and Content Note: Unemployed and workers alike took to heart the right to organise; voluntarily appealed for assistance in forming a union. Recalls while regional director of the American Federation of Labor (AFL), workers at Lloyd Manufacturing Company of Escanaba, Michigan asked Sigman for help; details fear workers felt over losing jobs for union activity, but how union won NLRB election. “Tears were coming out of the eyes of the workers.” Workers' wives fearful of company retaliation for union activity. Five-day strike at Lloyd followed election after management wouldn't negotiate contract; one worker run down by truck before contract negotiated. Recalls also strike at Marinette glove plant after company refused to recognize union. Starts to describe talks with aluminum company management in Manitowoc.

END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2

INTERVIEWER'S INTRODUCTION

COUNCILS DEVELOP OUT OF ORGANIZING UNIONS IN COMPETING PLANTS IN VARIOUS INDUSTRIES
Scope and Content Note: Councils began to develop when plants in various industries began to be organized outside of state as well as in Wisconsin.

DEPRESSION SPAWNS STRIKES IN TWO RIVERS AREA
Scope and Content Note: Workers struck Aluminum Goods Manufacturing Company plants in Two Rivers-Manitowoc area; owners very anti-labor. Nearly one hundred per cent of workers laid off except for machinists; most went on relief or took jobs funded by Works Progress Administration (WPA).

SIGMAN GETS INVOLVED IN LABOR UNION ORGANIZING
Scope and Content Note: Went on WPA after unsuccessful Assembly re-election bid; worked in woods and built up river bank for park. Lived in cheap hotel; fellow workers outfitted him with warm clothes suitable for winter work after ill-clad first day on the job. “It showed the concern of people for one another because they were all in the same boat.” Such common suffering led to rapid development of organizing activity.

ROLE OF HENRY OHL AND SIGMAN IN ORGANIZING TWO RIVERS AREA WORKERS DURING DEPRESSION
Scope and Content Note: Ohl spoke at park to several hundred workers; emphasizing unions must be formed to improve working conditions. About fifty then went to Community Hall to form Federal Labor Union (FLU) 18835. Set up across occupational lines “like the Wobblie Unions out west, composed of anybody who worked....” Sigman elected officer of FLU 18835; many other workers fearful of becoming officers.

ONE FLU SPLITS INTO OTHER UNIONS AS MEMBERSHIP GROWS
Scope and Content Note: Machinists separated out by Otto Jirikowic; separate FLU formed at Hamilton Manufacturing Company, etc.

ORGANIZATION AND RECOGNITION AT HAMILTON MANUFACTURING COMPANY
Scope and Content Note: A few workers from Hamilton attended Community Hall meeting; word spread. Had to appeal to NLRB for election, which was won at both Two Rivers and Manitowoc Hamilton plants. Strike followed after Hamilton refused to recognize union; entire delegation attending WSFL convention joined picket line so tight that only members of Vits family allowed through. Recalls how, in quiet arrangement, Hamilton strikers arranged for aluminum automobile grills to be shipped to Nash Motors in Kenosha to prevent layoffs there; generous strike fund contributions from Nash workers. AFL executive board approved $5,000 expenditure for strike benefits.

AFL ORGANIZERS IN WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: Sigman in 1934 asked by AFL to help organizer Paul Smith; in 1937 succeeded Smith as AFL regional director. Describes organizing fervor in various internationals; few jurisdictional problems until “flocking of membership ceased.”

JURISDICTIONAL PROBLEMS AFTER HECTIC ORGANIZING PERIOD PASSES
Scope and Content Note: Gives examples of hassle between Milwaukee coal workers in FLU and conflict with Teamsters; of Teamsters insisting on representing Carnation Company workers in Wisconsin because Teamsters had Carnation plants on West Coast. Eventually, all Carnation plants in state, organized as FLU's, went to Teamsters.

MORE EXAMPLES OF TAKEOVERS IN WISCONSIN, A STATE WITH HIGH NUMBER OF FLU's
Scope and Content Note: Examples include carpenters taking over Hamilton Manufacturing Co. FLU, with many veneer workers; United Steelworkers of America (USWA) absorbing West Bend Aluminum Company of America (ALCOA) plant in Kensington, Pennsylvania.

WHY NECESSARY TO FORM FEDERAL LABOR UNIONS (FLU's) IN WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: Existing unions had not prepared structure for organizing; FLU mechanism all there was available. “No place for workers in industrial plants because there were only craft unions prior to that time.” Explains how auto workers went into FLU's at first, then formed Councils, then received international charter.

A.O. SMITH WORKERS ORGANIZE AS FLU EXCEPT FOR SMALL MEMBERSHIP IN CRAFT UNION MEMBERS
Scope and Content Note: Seven thousand workers with eighty percent organized in FLU; small number of machinists, engineers, electricians. Recalls how Smith workers met, discussed issues, made decisions. “The employees in those days took part in determining their contract.” Lawrence Parrish, A.O. Smith labor relations manager, insisted on continuing bargaining talks; also insisted that no contract be signed until all unions ready to sign. No other union could be recognized as bargaining agent once contract signed.

END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 1

INTERVIEWER'S INTRODUCTION

MORE ON A.O. SMITH CONTRACTS
Scope and Content Note: Prevented jurisdictional disputes and, therefore, possible work stoppages. Never a strike at A.O. Smith while Sigman AFL regional director because of mutual union-management agreement of no changes until contract expired.

WHY A.O. SMITH RECOGNIZES UNION IN 1934
Scope and Content Note: Parrish the key among Smith managers who recognized it needed the workers; unafraid of negotiating with them.

ALLIS-CHALMERS (A-C) MANAGEMENT DIFFERS FROM A.O. SMITH ON UNION RECOGNITION ISSUE; AFL REFUSES TO INTERFERE WITH UAW LOCAL 248
Scope and Content Note: Involves makeup of such individuals at A-C as Harold “Buck” Story who were strongly anti-union. Tried to play AFL and CIO off against one another. Remembers Story as lobbyist for Wisconsin Manufacturers Association while Sigman an Assemblyman “so we got pretty well acquainted.” Story once suggested to Sigman that AFL should be interested in forming union at A-C; Sigman retorted, “You helped create it [Local 248]; you got it.” Policy position of AFL in Wisconsin was not to interfere with another union in which employees had a voice, were recognized, and were making gains. Employers learned they had to recognize unions; unions “would fight for recognition more than wages and conditions....” Today, contrary to 1930's no employer would want a strike over recognition of union as bargaining agent for workers. At A-C in 1930's, somehow or other the “commies”--”good organisers”--took over the FLU and successor union. Story blundered in failing to realize that union here to stay; by encouraging CIO. Recalls meeting called by Jake Friedrick, Milwaukee Federated Trades Council (FTC) organizer, attended by “Christoffel and his gang.” After Friedrick's speech interrupted, Sigman rose and chastised “gang” for being afraid of the truth. Christoffel crowd used clever tactics.

WORKERS SEEK AFL ASSISTANCE IN ORGANIZING DURING THE 1930's
Scope and Content Note: Example of responding to three or four employees from Libby, McNeil and Libby plant in Whitewater, traveling to meet in hotel room with them, and organizing FLU for two dollar initiation fee and one dollar monthly dues. Issues included wages at twenty-five cents per hour; differentials compared to other plants as great as eighty cents per hour. Committee members in evenings signed up fellow workers; next, charter issued. Then Sigman and committee members negotiated with company representatives sent from Chicago, discussing what each of the seventy employees did, and what previous Carnation Company FLU contract had called for. No problem for Sigman to get Libby agreement to pay as much as Carnation; “pleased and proud” of great wage increase despite individual worker quibbles. Anecdote about meeting later with Libby representatives in Chicago; later, FLU's at both Libby and Carnation went to Teamsters.

FLU ORGANIZING AT RAY-O-VAC, MADISON, AND GENERAL DRY BATTERY
Scope and Content Note: Refers to Robert Zieger's book Madison's Battery Workers, 1934-1952; A History of Federal Labor Union 19587. Ray-O-Vac doubtful over value of unions even though nearby Gisholt Company machinists already organized. Workers at Ray-O-Vac plants in Wisconsin very active in seeking and getting contract. Ray-O-Vac hired Voyta Wrabetz as labor relations consultant; questioned whether competing General Dry Battery at Dubuque would be organized. Contract at General Dry Battery contained cost-of-living clause, perhaps first in country. Workers, too, concerned that battery companies competing with Midwest firms be organized.

ORGANIZING AMONG COMPETING PLANTS LEADS TO FORMATION OF COUNCILS, THEN INTERNATIONALS NEGOTIATING NATIONAL CONTRACTS
Scope and Content Note: Battery workers councils organized to gain leverage against employers in same way as auto, public employees, etc. [Aside that AFSCME President Jerry Wurf passed away today.] Councils in turn led to internationals with national contracts involving all plants; has taken away “participation of the employees in the particular [individual] plants because all negotiations were done on the top and they [workers] had nothing to say about it. So the interests of the workers were lost except when wages came up.” Political process lost, too, because local workers not involved in decision-making.

END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 2

INTERVIEWER'S INTRODUCTION

MORE ON CONTEMPORARY INTERNATIONAL UNIONS
Scope and Content Note: Speculates that national formula may not be enough because companies produce in plants in many countries. U.S. worker may have to seek Japanese-type of worker-management partnership.

DISTINCTION BETWEEN AFL AND WSFL ROLES IN 1930's
Scope and Content Note: Not much difference. Recalls when CIO organizing began, the “real liberals” in WSFL leadership remained with AFL because “labor movement in Wisconsin was recognized as one of the most progressive” in U.S. Recalls how AFL President Green invited Sigman to Washington, D.C. to explain to press why WSFL stayed with AFL.

CONFLICT WITHIN STATE BETWEEN AFL AND CIO
Scope and Content Note: Policy was not to accept CIO locals into central bodies until national CIO rejoined AFL. Recalls Milwaukee FTC barred representatives of CIO unions.

WISCONSIN PLAN REJECTED AT AFL CONVENTION
Scope and Content Note: Each international looked out for itself.

WSFL REFUSES TO ALLOW FLU COUNCIL TO BE ESTABLISHED
Scope and Content Note: Opposed because of fear that an FLU Council might result in dual organization that would lead to formation of another labor federation within the state. Recognition also that time would come when machinists, electricians, etc. within FLU's would decide to affiliate with internationals. Sigman concurred because “my main work in the labor movement was the establishment of federal unions and the state federation of labor went along because at that period...it was easier to develop union recognition with all the employees under one union than being separated.”

BATTERY PLANTS IN MILWAUKEE DURING WORLD WAR II
Scope and Content Note: Ray-O-Vac and Signal Corporations both won cost-plus government contracts during World War II. FTC made great efforts to recruit thirty-five-hundred workers. “Complete union contract” called for every worker after thirty days to belong to union. Ray-O-Vac management, on basis of experience after World War I, knew could buy plant back from government for ten cents on a dollar. Recalls strike threat at Ray-O-Vac in 1944 because “a few Commies got in there... and they demanded that some of the blacks ... be made foremen even though they never worked in the plant before.” Sigman responded by calling meeting, informing workers that contract must be honored, threatening to remove from plant any worker who hadn't joined union after thirty days. “That settled it.”

CRAFT UNION ANTAGONISM TOWARD FEDERAL LABOR UNIONS
Scope and Content Note: Political clash within WSFL because FLU's more liberal, more willing to pass resolutions relating to new legislation and to cooperate with other unions like paper and sulphite workers. Building trades and hotel and restaurant workers under Phil Valley, and teamsters joined hands; they respected such individuals as Ohl, J. J. Handley, and Frederick but cool to their socialist leanings. FLU's “never really organized to be a bloc” although resolutions came in from such individual FLU's as those at Smith and Simmons. Struggle within FLU's between conservative forces versus FLU's, paper and sulphite and brewery workers.

SIGMAN BECOMES MEMBER OF WSFL EXECUTIVE BOARD
Scope and Content Note: Elected at 1936 Beaver Dam convention with support of Ohl and re-elected through 1939, after criticizing socialist position for wanting to repeal small loans act. WSFL supported bill proposed by Assemblyman Harold Groves to retain program but place it under state banking commission. Sigman lost bid for re-election to WSFL board in 1940.

CHANGE IN DIRECTION OF WSFL AFTER OHL'S DEATH
Scope and Content Note: More conservative direction politically. After Sigman left for New York in mid-1940's heard from friends that La Follette's loss to McCarthy in 1946 primary election due to “the communist group and the conservative group [within the WSFL].”

END OF TAPE 3, SIDE 1

INTERVIEWER'S INTRODUCTION

RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN OHL AND WILLIAM NAGORSNE
Scope and Content Note: Teamsters closeness to Peter Schoemann was power behind Herman Seide and Nagorsne. “I got hell ... I had suggested Jake Friedrick to take Henry Ohl's place and in my opinion Jake was the man. But no....” Sigman recommended to William Green that Friedrick replace him as AFL regional director after Friedrick eased out of FTC position because of internal political slightments. Maneuvering done by building trades mainly political and didn't harm labor movement in Wisconsin in the long run. But “they got control and they kept it.” Nagorsne a “nice fella” but not as capable as Friedrick or Handley. Seide, leukemia-ridden, controlled by building trades-hotel and restaurant-teamster alliance.

AFL ENDORSEMENT OF DANIEL HOAN'S FIRST RE-ELECTION CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: Green permitted AFL endorsement of Hoan, which didn't please WSFL conservatives.

GROWING TEAMSTER STRENGTH IN 1930's
Scope and Content Note: One of strongest groups in WSFL by 1940.

GEORGE HABERMAN-RUDY FAUPL CONTEST FOR WSFL PRESIDENCY IN 1943
Scope and Content Note: Sigman not present at convention. Interviewer recounts succession of officers following Seide's elevation to presidency.

BRIEF PAUSE BECAUSE OF INTERRUPTION

RESUMPTION OF DISCUSSION OF WSFL OFFICERS FROM 1942-45

GEORGE HABERMAN A CONSERVATIVE POWER AFTER ELECTED TO WSFL PRESIDENCY IN 1943
Scope and Content Note: Came from county and municipal employees union, had consistent teamster support; close to Peter Schoemann. Haberman “made a good public figure...at a convention”; polished at running an organization. Probably a “conservative Democrat,” Haberman not as conservative as he has been made out to be by many.

LABOR JOINS DEMOCRATS AFTER ROBERT LA FOLLETTE, JR. RETURNS TO REPUBLICAN PARTY AFTER KILLING OWN PROGRESSIVE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: After La Follette killed his own party, he “double-crossed” labor movement, resulting in labor swing to Democrats.

MORE ON GEORGE HABERMAN
Scope and Content Note: Haberman a shrewd leader, perceiving issues where strength would be strong or weak after analyzing extent of opposition.

OHL AS THE EXCELLENT WSFL LEADER
Scope and Content Note: “No one ever came up to the qualification and ability of Henry Ohl,” adept at getting building trades support when he needed it.

DIRECTION OF WSFL HAD JAKE FRIEDRICK BEEN ELECTED PRESIDENT
Scope and Content Note: “Jake was a man of principle ... he was also a smart politician.” Could take middle-of-the-road position when he had to; able to persuade industry to his position while member of state workman's compensation board. Sigman, who played pinochole weekly with Friedrick and Wendalin Kraft for about thirty years, knew Friedrick very well. Distressed over poor care at nursing home near end of Friedrick's life.

REASONS FOR SCHOEMANN'S DOMINANCE OF WSFL
Scope and Content Note: Schoemann the strong person behind the scenes; strong pro-Catholic and anti-socialist attitudes partly responsible for opposition to Friedrick. Friedrick as a machinist and tool and die maker, not vigorously opposed by crafts since machinists are strong craft union; crafts would not have opposed Friedrick for being too pro-industrial union.

COMMENTS ON AN OUTSTANDING ORGANIZER FOR MACHINISTS
Scope and Content Note: Sigman had helped to organize union at Geuder, Paeschke and Frey Company; IAM later came in due largely to very effective organization efforts of Al Hayes, “a real liberal.” Recalls during World War II, Sigman questioned by FBI because of Hayes' alleged anti-semitism.

ALLEGATION THAT BUILDING TRADES TOOK OVER EXECUTIVE BOARD AT 1944 WSFL CONVENTION
Scope and Content Note: Interviewer refers to leaflet prepared and distributed during 1944 WSFL convention.

SCHOEMANN ATTITUDE TOWARD RUDY FAUPL
Scope and Content Note: Faupl, who with Charles Heymanns worked for Sigman as AFL regional organizers, probably very ambitious personally. Capable but would not have been strong WSFL president. Reiterates Jake Friedrick should have run in 1943. Repeats cannot recall attending convention that year.

DIFFICULTY OF BEATING AN INCUMBENT
Scope and Content Note: Difficult to remove a person like Haberman, once in power and doing a fair job.

SIGMAN IN NEW YORK BY TIME “FOUR HORSEMEN” MAKE CHALLENGE WITHIN WSFL
Scope and Content Note: Sigman took position with American Jewish Committee, job which meant meeting with national union leadership. Removed him from Wisconsin labor movement. Recalls individuals he worked with closely.

CONCLUDING COMMENTS BY INTERVIEWEE AND INTERVIEWER

END OF INTERVIEW SESSION

INTERVIEWER'S INTRODUCTION (03/01/1982 session)

INTERVIEWER REMARKS AND INTERVIEWEE REJOINDER

ROLE OF WISCONSIN FLU's WITHIN AFL
Scope and Content Note: Industrial unions through FLU's treated equally once represented on WSFL executive board; got good service from AFL. Members participated in drafting agreements in individual plants, elected own officers democratically. Were differences between building trades and FLU's; FLU's formed FLU Councils according to type of industry. Cites examples of aluminum workers, battery workers, public employees, and auto workers, all of whom set up councils before becoming inter-nationals. Councils reached out to other states where similar industries located, then formed national councils before individual internationals established.

FACTORS WHICH PREVENT WISCONSIN INDUSTRIAL WORKERS FROM JOINING CIO
Scope and Content Note: Alleged communist influence of some individuals a deterrent. Recalls how he as AFL regional director went to UAW leaders to seek support even though UAW had joined CIO.

WHY AFL MORE SUCCESSFUL THAN CIO IN ORGANIZING INDUSTRIAL WORKERS
Scope and Content Note: Most workers satisfied with AFL. Good staff provided service. AFL and WSFL worked well together; mentions such individuals as Rudy Faupl, Charles Heymanns, Andrew Biemiller and WSFL organizers.

TYPICAL WEEK FOR DAVID SIGMAN AS AFL REGIONAL DIRECTOR
Scope and Content Note: Interviewer refers to Charles Heymann's organizer reports which Historical Society hopes to acquire. Typical week began with Monday meeting in Ohl's office, reviewing requests for WSFL and AFL assistance in organizing. Organizer assigned over extended period until workers were organized and agreement reached with company. Gives example of Parker Pen Company in Janesville where, after three weeks of organizing, agreement came quite easily. During organizing period sought support of other unions in Janesville so “workers would be assured that they were not alone.” AFL success due to continuity of organizational presence during organizing, bargaining, and servicing.

SIGMAN'S ROLE IN ORGANIZING AS AFL REGIONAL DIRECTOR
Scope and Content Note: If field organizer had difficulty or if Sigman felt his presence was required, he would join field organizer. Gives example of when he worked with Heymanns to settle wildcat strike at Ray-O-Vac in Madison.

WHO DECIDES ON ORGANIZING ASSIGNMENTS
Scope and Content Note: Sigman made decisions as regional director in area covering Wisconsin, Iowa, and Minnesota. Also assisted AFL internationals. Gives example of organizing battery workers at Dubuque at same time Al Hayes, later IAM international president, was organizing machinists in area.

HOW ORGANIZERS KEEP UP WITH REQUESTS FOR ASSISTANCE
Scope and Content Note: Depended on situation. Recalls instructions from Green to go to Diamond Match subsidiary at Cloquet, Minnesota to deal with emergency strike by workers. Found a few picketers outside and national guard inside plant. Arranged with Governor Olsen for no interference by troops; impressed by aid to strikers by largely Scandinavian population. AFL “didn't believe in just jumping in and out of a community to prevent workers discouragement.”

INTERNATIONAL-HARVESTER (I-H) ORGANIZING DRIVE IN DAVENPORT, IOWA
Scope and Content Note: Not clear on organizing activity before NLRB election. Does recall negotiations with I-H management in Chicago over workers in Milwaukee plant represented by FLU, the only non-CIO I-H plant.

ATTEMPTS BY CIO TO ORGANIZE WORKERS IN EAU CLAIRE AND LA CROSSE AREAS IN LATE 1930's AND EARLY 1940's
Scope and Content Note: CIO could make no headway in organizing Trane Company workers in La Crosse because central labor body there worked closely with AFL. National Pressure Cooker Company workers in Eau Claire also organized by AFL, as were several area knitting plants, although Ohl and Sigman later agreed that ILGWU could better service latter. After contract expired and ILGWU returned to AFL, knitting workers turned over to ILGWU.

IMPACT OF CIO ORGANIZING ON AFL ORGANIZING DECISIONS
Scope and Content Note: Impact only in cases where workers indicated they felt strongly in favor of CIO. Didn't attempt to organize a plant where CIO had existing contracts since worker interests jeopardized when forced to listen to organizers from different organizations.

END OF TAPE 4, SIDE 1

INTERVIEWER'S INTRODUCTION

PLANT JURISDICTIONAL DISPUTES BETWEEN FLU's AND INTERNATIONALS
Scope and Content Note: Occurred rarely. Recalls situation at A.O. Smith when FLU 19806 had 10,000 members, electrical workers about 50 and operating engineers ten. Policy of crafts and FLU's was that no contract signed until all reached agreement, and no jurisdictional disputes for duration of contract. Once when firemen and oilers threatened to skirt policy and open up contract, Sigman, after call from Parrish, Vice President for Labor Relations, stated AFL would live up to contract, when contract expired firemen and oilers could request departmental election.

WILDCAT STRIKES AT KENOSHA IN SUMMER OF 1941
Scope and Content Note: Shop floor flareups at both American Brass and Simmons companies led to wildcats. Recalls at Simmons that some FLU members “wanted to go CIO,” an added issue to shop floor disputes. Unsettled grievances responsible for departmental wildcats at American Brass. “Wildcats aren't permissable {under the contract] but it's understandable and you can get industry to understand, too, how a wild-cat strike occurs and they have to reprimand their foremen or supervisors as sometimes we have to reprimand our own members....”

NLRB ELECTIONS AT SIMMONS CO. IN 1937
Scope and Content Note: Sigman not involved. Strongly unionized work force in Kenosha area cooperated with one another. Anecdote about how ready Kenosha workers are to strike.

LABOR PEACE IN KENOSHA FOLLOWING NLRB ELECTION AT SIMMONS
Scope and Content Note: Kenosha plants almost exclusively in AFL. Also, Janesville and Racine unions relatively cooperative.

AFL PONDERS WHETHER TO ATTEMPT TO ORGANIZE ALLIS-CHALMERS COMPANY IN MILWAUKEE IN EARLY 1940's
Scope and Content Note: AFL decided to keep hands off Allis-Chalmers; no serious attempt made. Recalls 1937 meeting at Metropolitan Building called by machinists and Jake Friedrick, at which scores of Allis-Chalmers workers drowned out Federation speakers. Allis-Chalmers workers went CIO, due largely to Harold Christoffel, “a very capable individual,” and other organizers in the plant. AFL “did not raise a hand to prevent organization of the employees in that [Allis-Chalmers] plant” into Local 248, one of strongest unions in UAW-CIO.

REACTION TO HOMER MARTIN
Scope and Content Note: Didn't think he was a very capable or sincere trade unionist. Martin “not a strong individual” during auto strikes of the 1930's.

RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN WSFL AND STATE IUC AFTER HARVEY KITZMAN ELECTED IUC PRESIDENT
Scope and Content Note: “Didn't change that much” after Kitzman succeeded Emil Costello; each kept to own business. With each, strong unions already organized. Competition between the two groups subsided despite bitterness in AFL and CIO camps in Wisconsin since split. Overall both organizations beneficial to state workers.

SHIFT IN WSFL LEADERSHIP IN 1930's and 1940's
Scope and Content Note: With passing of Ohl and Handley and after appointment of Seide as WSFL president, “there was no longer the development of progressive idealism and the promotion of legislation to help the workers ... Things became status quo; what was developed was developed.” Conservative rather than socialist policy began to prevail. Cites example of attempt to organize a farmer-labor coalition during the Ohl administration. No great harm done in post-Ohl period, as leadership pursued goals to strengthen trade union movement.

WSFL REVERSAL OF HISTORICAL STAND ON OWNERSHIP OF PUBLIC UTILITIES
Scope and Content Note: Part of attempt by WSFL leadership to cease furthering policies of previous socialist leadership. New members of executive board “felt that the labor movement should not get involved in that kind of politics...” in part, perhaps, because utility workers themselves were organized.

NEW DEAL AND WISCONSIN PROGRESSIVE PARTY PROGRAMS' IMPACT ON WISCONSIN SOCIALISTS
Scope and Content Note: Such labor leaders as Ohl, Handley, and Friedrick accepted that New Deal programs had stolen thunder from socialist programs. In Wisconsin, Sigman while in legislature unconcerned with who got credit for various liberal programs; important matter was that programs were adopted.

JAKE FRIEDRICK'S LACK OF AGGRESSIVENESS IN SELF-PROMOTION
Scope and Content Note: While building trades support of Seide was critical, Friedrick was not aggressive enough in seeking the top position. Made little if any attempt to influence Haberman directly.

END OF TAPE 4, SIDE 2

INTERVIEWER'S INTRODUCTION

MORE ON JAKE FRIEDRICK
Scope and Content Note: “Respected by everyone, by labor and by industry” as well as by fellow University of Wisconsin regents, but never interested in forcing himself to become head of any particular organization. Never expressed misgivings about evolving “business unionism.” Repeats how he, Friedrick, Wendelin Kraft, tavern-owner and Democrat, and unnamed attorney played pinochole weekly for thirty years at Kraft's home or at his tavern.

SIGMAN LEAVES WISCONSIN LABOR MOVEMENT IN LATE 1944
Scope and Content Note: Interviewer refers to scrapbook Sigman donated to Historical Society.

WHY SIGMAN WENT TO NEW YORK
Scope and Content Note: Very intense civil rights and discrimination problems in 1940's; asked by American Jewish Committee to set up labor service to work with labor and industry. Held meetings with AFL president Green, CIO president Philip Murray, CIO counsel Holberg, AFL counsel Joseph Padway to discuss labor's involvement in developing action programs to combat problems. Both AFL and CIO already on record as opposing discrimination particularly against minorities but no active, ongoing program to battle against discrimination. Advisory committee established, met for one week to discuss how best to reach workers with anti-discrimination materials. Eventually used records, posters, comic books suggesting that discrimination affects everyone's pocketbook. Advisory committee continued to meet monthly. Recalls Cincinnati meeting with A. Philip Randolph of Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters; anecdote about how committee prevented him from taking fact-finding trip to Germany. Labor movement very involved in support for lessening discrimination; as a result, labor movement strengthened.

SIGMAN'S PERSONAL ENCOUNTERS WITH DISCRIMINATION WHILE AFL ORGANIZER
Scope and Content Note: Not directly “but I had a feeling of a little discrimination.” While some trade unions had Jewish presidents (needle trades, hatters, furriers, etc.) and AFL counsel was a Jew, Sigman the only Jew ever elected to WSFL executive board and was only Jewish AFL regional director in the United States. At one time, Sigman the only Jewish member of legislature, elected from district with only three Jewish families in midst of heavy German population. Recalls when he was defeated by two-to-one margin in 1938 senate election bid, one newspaper claimed that “Hitler's influence reached Manitowoc County.” People can be influenced through education; cites Anatole France observation.

IMPACT OF LABOR SERVICE COMMITTEE
Scope and Content Note: Success grew, with AFL, CIO, and UAW among others establishing own anti-discrimination program. Approximately two million “Joe Worker” comic books distributed. “Labor has been very successful [in combating discrimination], but at the present time it seems that we're getting a new serious attempt to get people to discriminate politically.” Cites Moral Majority and John Birch Society and Ku Klux Klan activities; fears lurking danger for contemporary society in midst of stress caused by high unemployment.

APPEAL OF GEORGE WALLACE TO INDUSTRIAL WORKERS IN WISCONSIN IN 1964
Scope and Content Note: Wallace's appeal based on identifying a scapegoat, stemming from fear of losing job to a Black; appeal similar to that used by Ronald Reagan. Moral Majority radio and television propaganda also plays on fear; labels as communists those in such countries as El Salvador and Nicaragua who fight for freedom.

END OF TAPE 5, SIDE 1

INTERVIEWER'S INTRODUCTION

SIGMAN'S ELECTION TO WISCONSIN ASSEMBLY IN 1930
Scope and Content Note: Ran as Progressive Republican. Recalls Thomas Duncan as Governor Philip La Follette's secretary as “a very capable man.” Tax reform needed immediately since farmers and workers paid more income tax than those who received dividends on investments. Sigman personally did research, engaged Professor Harold Groves of UW Economics Department, also an assemblyman, to find out who received dividends and who paid income tax. Recalls visit from Manitowoc and Two Rivers area manufacturers before bill came to floor for debate. Bill passed after Sigman used data he had compiled during debate.

UTILITY LEGISLATION
Scope and Content Note: David Lilienthal, hired by Governor La Follette, attempted to push legislation to consolidate utilities in Wisconsin for greater efficiency and rate reduction, and to enable communities without utilities to create own. No caucus system then; Phil met often with Progressive Republican legislators. Occasionally came to speak before assembly/senate joint gathering. “La Follette was very good then, but he changed later.”

OTHER LEGISLATION
Scope and Content Note: Unemployment compensation; highway overhead construction to reduce hazards at railway grade crossings.

GOVERNOR LA FOLLETTE'S PLAN FOR STATE GOVERNMENT IN EARLY 1930's
Scope and Content Note: Overall scheme not apparent to Sigman. Phil was “quite a politician” and “smarter than his brother Bob.” Recalls how La Follette's office got someone to run against him to help to get out the vote. Recalls occasional meetings with La Follette brothers at the La Follette farm.

FARMER-LABOR PROGRESSIVE FEDERATION
Scope and Content Note: “We took a leaf out of the farm-labor [party] in Minnesota.” Felt FLPF would strengthen liberal voice in the Progressive party against conservatives. FLPF helped to reduce level of anti-labor sentiment among legislators. Executive boards of WSFL and Wisconsin Farmers Equity Union met to discuss basic principles and decided to form FLPF. Endorsed Phil for Governor; Harry Jack for lieutenant governor. Jack turned out to be “not a speaker, not a campaigner....” Henry Rutz appointed campaign manager. Senator E. Merlyn Rowlands, a banker, nominated for treasurer while Sol Levitan was FLPF candidate. Recalls Levitan remembered by farmers as an immigrant farmer. No successful FLPF candidate in election as “regular” Progressive Party slate swept election. FLPF effectiveness blunted thereafter, although efforts made by Sigman and others to develop union label for dairy products.

EFFECT ON FARMERS OF LABOR'S ATTEMPT TO ORGANIZE DAIRY PLANTS
Scope and Content Note: No effects because cooperatively-owned dairy plants already organized. AFL concentrated on such large food processing firms as Carnation and Libby.

CHANGE IN SIGMAN'S ATTITUDE TOWARD PHIL LA FOLLETTE
Scope and Content Note: Hard feelings developed when Phil tried to organize National Progressive Party “along the lines of the Goebbels method of presenting a program to the public....” Cites Phil's suggestion that detailed party platform not needed. Believes Phil impressed by what he observed on trip to Germany; began to feel that it was important to offer people not principle, but bread. Used symbols to influence people, attempting to get support of industry as well as labor. Recalls stock pavilion meeting on April 28, 1938, with General Immel's soldiers bedecked in new uniforms ushering people into stock pavilion. The “whole thing looked like a Hitler movement.” WSFL in executive session refused to endorse NPP, and Phil became alienated from labor. Recalls Phil's later endorsement of General McArthur, “beginning of the downfall of the progressive movement and Phil La Follette.”

END OF TAPE 5, SIDE 2

INTERVIEWER'S INTRODUCTION

PHILIP LA FOLLETTE AS AN ASTUTE POLITICIAN
Scope and Content Note: Always a “strong individual” which made him an astute politician. Could speak and organize effectively, as when he employed Tom Duncan during 1937 special session of legislature.

SOME SOLID PRO-LABOR LEGISLATORS
Scope and Content Note: Included Bill Bay of Kaukauna, Ben Rubin of Milwaukee (a socialist), Anton Miller of [Kaukauna], Herman Severson of Iola. Recommendation of labor committee usually sufficient to move a bill.

EMIL COSTELLO AS AN ASSEMBLYMAN
Scope and Content Note: Attendance record, especially at labor committee meetings, “could have been better.” Costello was a “dramatic” person, liked by the press. Alluded in speeches to backing he had of Kenosha trade unionists.

PAUL ALFONSI
Scope and Content Note: Hard working speaker of the assembly, he supported labor on every issue.

SIGMAN'S POLITICAL AMBITIONS
Scope and Content Note: Was “a little bit” ambitious. Nominated for lieutenant governor at Oshkosh FLPF convention (“I wanted it, I thought”) but stepped aside when his good friend Herman Severson also nominated. Severson withdrew the next day. Sigman ran for state senate in 1938 because term lasted for four years instead of two. Republicans in primary crossed over and voted for his Progressive opponent, and he lost by a two-to-one margin.

SIGMAN'S CLOSENESS TO LABOR MOVEMENT
Scope and Content Note: Would have preferred to have remained in labor movement for rest of life, but no pension system for organizers up to the time he left. Job with Labor Service Committee of American Jewish Committee in New York “a challenge and I took it.”

POLITICAL VIABILITY OF FLPF COALITION
Scope and Content Note: Took much time and effort to get agreement. Was idealistic to think all could work together “because the socialists didn't think the progressives went far enough....” “Foolish jealousies” resulted from socialist feeling towards Workers' Alliance, which leaned toward the communists. Cites contemporary example of lack of unity between various groups working in interest of elderly citizens, a movement Sigman has been involved in since the early 1960's. Recalls further example of Milwaukee labor movement where various groups have own political committees instead of unified effort for endorsement of candidates.

IMPROVEMENT IN RELATIONS BETWEEN WSFL AND STATE IUC
Scope and Content Note: Political education and political action cooperative activities began to improve once Harold Christoffel and Meyer Adelman left. John Schmitt, current State AFL-CIO president, “doing a good job.”

SOCIALIST IDEAL OF FARMER-WORKER COOPERATION
Scope and Content Note: Came to pass in farm worker movement in California, recognized by AFL-CIO and Teamsters. Small farmers in Midwest being absorbed by farm corporations and are less likely to join with workers.

RECIPROCAL UNION LABEL
Scope and Content Note: Interviewer mentions materials Sigman has donated to State Historical Society. Assumption behind label was that farmers' financial interest would lead to device to gain greater support for labor. Failed to develop because progressive farmer groups were losing out to Farm Bureau; economic conditions were improving by late 1930's and a “golden age was coming on, so to speak.” Leaders were lost, and “you lose leaders of a movement, you sometimes lose the movement.”

PURGE OF LEFT-WING IN STATE AND COUNTY IUC's IN 1946-47
Scope and Content Note: Anti-communism at its height and labor had clauses in constitutions barring communists from membership. Recalls incident while AFL regional director President Green asked him to look into agitation caused by two communists, sent Sigman a well-written brief on why a CP member should not be a union member. Recalls portrayal of Emma Goldman's disappointment in movie Reds, which all in all was a “beautiful movie.”

END OF TAPE 6, SIDE 1

INTERVIEWER'S INTRODUCTION

INTERVIEWEE REJOINDER
Scope and Content Note: In attempts to improve American society, “trade labor movement was most important and will continue to be important in developing our society in these troubled times.”

END OF INTERVIEW