INTRODUCTION

BIOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Born in Zion, Illinois. Graduated from high school in 1933. Worked for a chain store, a travelling job. Moved to Kenosha in 1942 and went to work at American Brass Company. Became active in the Federal Union there a year or two later.

WHITESIDE'S WORK FOR NEISNER BROTHERS
Scope and Content Note: It was a chain of department stores. Assistant manager; set up new stores. Quit because of the frequent transfers--Chicago, New York State, Pennsylvania.

WHITESIDE'S FAMILY
Scope and Content Note: Father was a lace weaver, but quit because of the health hazards. Became an automobile mechanic and later also worked for American Brass Company. A brother also worked there. Mother a housewife. Four brothers.

AMERICAN BRASS AND FEDERAL LABOR UNION (FLU) 19322
Scope and Content Note: Worked in the hot press department. The union was organized in 1936 or 1937. Whiteside went on leave from the company in 1951 but was repeatedly re-elected secretary of the union. Remained on leave from American Brass until four years ago.

WHITESIDE'S UNION POSITIONS
Scope and Content Note: Executive Board of FLU 19322; Executive Board of Wisconsin State Federation of Labor (WSFL) and Wisconsin State AFL-CIO (State AFL-CIO); chairman, Kenosha central labor body before and after the American Federation of Labor (AFL) merged with the Congress of Industrial Organizations (CIO) and is still on the Executive Board; business representative for the Amalgamated Meat Cutters Locals 588 and 283 and Retail Clerks Locals 1403 and 526; secretary of the United Steelworkers of America Local 9322.

MERGER OF FLU 19322 WITH STEELWORKERS, CREATING STEELWORKERS LOCAL 19322
Scope and Content Note: Machinists, Allied Industrial Workers, Teamsters, and others courted FLU 19322. Executive Board decided the Steelworkers were the most effective in the non-ferrous industry.

FLU 19322's RELATIONSHIP WITH MINE, MILL, AND SMELTER WORKERS AND THE STEELWORKERS
Scope and Content Note: Although Mine, Mill, and Smelter had been accused of Communist domination (“a lot of bull”) and had been purged from the CIO, FLU 19322 always had a good relationship with it. Irving Dichter, accused of being the main Communist in Mine, Mill, and Smelter, was “one of the most intelligent negotiators I ever saw.” Later, Mine, Mill, and Smelter merged with the Steelworkers, and Dichter was put on staff as an international representative. American Brass tried to use FLU 19322's close relationship with Mine, Mill, and Smelter against the local. Coalition bargaining with Teamsters, Steelworkers, Machinists, and Mine, Mill, and Smelter. Forty thousand struck the Anaconda Company (owner of American Brass) in 1967 and 1968. American Brass was out from July 15, 1967, to April 7, 1968. FLU 19322 joined the Steelworkers about 1962 or 1963. The Kenosha plant was one of the larger ones in the Anaconda system; many other locals in the system followed FLU 19322 into the Steelworkers.

DECLINE OF EMPLOYMENT AT AMERICAN BRASS
Scope and Content Note: Had about 2,700 employees at one time. Had about 1,400 at time of FLU 19322 merger with the Steelworkers. Six hundred fifty employees today. At one time, felt three million pounds per month was great; now one department does that much. In one department, automation reduced the work force from 72 to 7, while productivity increased. One machine eliminated the whole core room and its 15-20 employees.

MORE ON THE CLOSE RELATIONSHIP OF FLU 19322 AND THE MINE, MILL, AND SMELTER WORKERS
Scope and Content Note: Lasted from 1946 until merger with the Steelworkers; throughout the period of Communist accusations and the McCarthy Era. FLU 19322 leadership did not support Communists but was interested in getting the most for the membership.

WHITESIDE'S ROLE WITH FLU 19322
Scope and Content Note: He was president, 1946-1949, and then became secretary. Secretary was like a business agent, but it was not a paid position.

WHITESIDE AND THE RETAIL CLERKS
Scope and Content Note: Whiteside was active in the Kenosha Trades and Labor Council. The Clerks' international representative came to the Trades and Labor Council for assistance in 1948. Whiteside volunteered to help and refused payment since the local was broke. “The international representative said, 'I never heard anybody offer to work for nothing before.' I said, 'Well, we work for nothing a lot down here for other unions.'” The union had petitions in with the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) for union shop elections under the terms of the new Taft-Hartley Act. The employers had submitted many names of people who were no longer employed, but the union had not challenged those names and were well on their way to losing all of these union shop elections until Whiteside stepped in. All the union shop elections were eventually won.

WHITESIDE AND THE MEAT CUTTERS
Scope and Content Note: The Meat Cutters approached him to be their business agent in 1950. He refused because he was too busy. Finally, he agreed in 1951 to work for the Kenosha local. In 1964, he also took on the Racine Meat Cutters' local.

OTHER UNION ACTIVITIES IN KENOSHA
Scope and Content Note: Meanwhile, in his role with the Trades and Labor Council, he got involved in organizing a radio station, in a strike at the courthouse, in negotiations for the Newspaper Guild, and so on. Was also chairman of the board of the Union Co-op Publishing Company from 1948 to about 1970. There is still quite a bit of union co-operation in Kenosha, though not as much as during the 1945-1965 period.

IMPACT OF THE CIO ON THE AFL IN WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: Prior to the CIO, the AFL was largely a building trades organization.

END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1 (THERE IS NO TAPE 1, SIDE 2.)

INTRODUCTION

MANY FEDERAL LABOR UNIONS IN WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: The people in the WSFL were active organizers. At one time, there were eight or ten organizers in Milwaukee. Many industrial locals were organized before the CIO was formed.

AFL AND CIO RELATIONS IN KENOSHA
Scope and Content Note: There was a local no-raid agreement, but sometimes internationals would come in and attempt to raid anyway. Several raiding efforts at American Brass were repulsed. American Motors and some other large plants, particularly in the automobile industry, switched from Federal Unions to CIO.

THE “CONSERVATISM” OF THE WSFL'S LEADERSHIP FROM THE EARLY 1940s ON
Scope and Content Note: WSFL President George Haberman [elected 1943] “was a socialist actually himself.” It was not so much a shift in basic philosophy as it was a realization that Wisconsin was a Republican state outside Milwaukee and that labor had to work with Republicans in order to accomplish anything. Congressmen, governors and legislators were largely Republicans, generally conservative. Minnesota's Senator Hubert Humphrey was considered Wisconsin's third senator “because he was the only guy we could talk to in the Senate.” Wisconsin Senator Alexander Wiley would talk to Haberman and WSFL Secretary-Treasurer William Nagorsne, “but his actions didn't always follow up his talk.” Haberman and Nagorsne tried to “work...within the system.” As a result, workers' compensation and unemployment compensation legislation generally grew out of an “agreed upon bill.” Haberman and Nagorsne were simply “looking for ways to move out of the hole they were in, which we are back in right now.”

THE ELECTIONS OF HABERMAN AND NAGORSNE
Scope and Content Note: Nagorsne was a Teamster, and the Teamsters were very close to the building trades. Haberman, from the building trades, simply had a greater base of support than his opposition, Jacob Friedrick, a Machinist.

INTERNAL DISPUTES IN THE WSFL DURING THE 1940s
Scope and Content Note: The “Four Horsemen,” Carl Griepentrog (Allied Industrial Workers, then the United Automobile Workers (UAW)--AFL), Alex Schaff (FLU 19322), Felix Reisdorf (A.O. Smith FLU), and another tried to force Haberman to hold a convention in 1945. At the next convention, “they marked those guys for extinction.” They were voted off the WSFL Executive Board and replaced with others from industrial unions. “Again, the building trades built kind of a coalition with some of the industrial unions.” Merrill Rhey (from FLU 19322) ran against Nagorsne twice. The first time, he got a fairly sizable vote because “they weren't prepared for the competition.” The second time, however, “his vote was way down there.”

FLU OPPOSITION WITHIN THE WSFL
Scope and Content Note: In addition to political opposition, the FLUs agitated for their own industrial department. Also formed the Wisconsin Conference of AFL Unions in Industrial Shops and Plants. Haberman, nevertheless, would always give help to a local, even if it battled him politically.

WHY THE INDUSTRIAL UNIONS FOUGHT HABERMAN AND THE BUILDING TRADES
Scope and Content Note: “In any organization...you have some competition.... In convention assembled the building trades with their friends would carry a lot of votes and would put over programs that maybe were not always beneficial to...factory workers.” Haberman had not been in office long enough to establish himself when Rudolph Faupl and Jacob Friedrick ran against him. This opposition “was mostly politics,” more than philosophical. There were differences in the needs of industrial people and building trades people. One issue was the Industrial Commission. Voyta Wrabetz headed the Commission and was supported by Haberman. The industrial unions, however, did not think the plant inspections were adequate. One inspection of American Brass turned up 600 violations of safety rules; American Brass had many complaints about gases. The industrial unions also wanted the WSFL to do more organizing in the industrial area.

GEORGE HABERMAN AND RUDOLPH FAUPL
Scope and Content Note: In 1945, Haberman refused to reappoint Faupl as alternate to the regional War Labor Board (WLB). Partly this was simply politics; partly it was because Haberman wanted someone who was closer to the building trades.

MORE ON THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE INDUSTRIAL UNIONS AND THE WSFL LEADERSHIP
Scope and Content Note: “I think the federals just felt they didn't have enough representation to set policy for the State Federation of Labor.... They probably would have been more on the CIO line--more aggressive..., more militant.” “The old AF of L” had a broader base and made 40 percent-60 percent higher wages than industrial unions. “So they thought a little bit differently about policies and programs.”

FEDERAL LABOR UNION CONFERENCE
Scope and Content Note: Continued to exist in some form until the Federal Unions began to join internationals after the AFL-CIO merger. Paid a small per capita; had a campaign fund. Its purpose was mainly to get more representation in the WSFL. It did result in getting the WSFL to hire a time-study person. Federal Unions would submit as many resolutions to WSFL conventions as all other locals combined--increased unemployment compensation, safety in the work place, organizing and boycott campaigns.

SERVICING FOR FEDERAL LABOR UNIONS
Scope and Content Note: Had eight or ten people in the Milwaukee office when Jake Friedrick was AFL Regional Director.

END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 1

INTRODUCTION

MORE ON THE FEDERAL LABOR UNION CONFERENCE
Scope and Content Note: Served largely as a caucus within the WSFL. “They were young people in a hurry.” They never gave serious consideration to quitting the AFL and joining the CIO. They saw some progress, and that is why they did not just join the CIO.

DISSIPATION OF WSFL INTERNAL POLITICS BY THE EARLY 1950s
Scope and Content Note: The Federal Labor Union Conference helped; it got “sub rosa” recognition. Federal Union representation on the Executive Board. Employment was good; “our politics were in good shape; we were in pretty fair shape at that moment.”

ABSENCE OF POST-WORLD WAR II RAIDING
Scope and Content Note: Very little. Most locals were pretty entrenched by this time. There was some concern at American Brass that the small Machinists' local there would try to absorb the Federal Labor Union. Many suitors, but of little concern, “because the Federals did a pretty decent job for their people.”

ASSESSMENT OF THE CIO
Scope and Content Note: “The CIO served a big purpose, a good purpose. I think they did a lot to organize and advance the labor movement in the United States.” More militant; in more of a hurry.

AFL AND CIO DIFFERENCES ON THE ISSUE OF UNEMPLOYMENT COMPENSATION
Scope and Content Note: The CIO lobbied vigorously to eliminate the one-week waiting period. The AFL was more concerned with the level of benefits and how/whether one qualified for benefits.

EXISTENCE OF A DUAL UNION NOT NECESSARY TO KEEP UNION LEADERSHIP ON ITS TOES
Scope and Content Note: Back in 1950, existence of a dual union might have been important for that purpose, but “the membership will keep you on your toes today.” More knowledgable membership today. The threat of moving to another union has nothing to do with the kinds of contracts a local gets.

REMOVAL OF THE “PUBLIC OWNERSHIP” CLAUSE FROM THE WSFL CONSTITUTION'S PREAMBLE
Scope and Content Note: Whiteside thinks this was initiated by some government workers who were having problems in negotiations with their employer. [This was more or less the official opinion of the WSFL leadership at the time. The Proceedings of the 1946 convention, however, do not identify who submitted this amendment. It was merely included in a handout provided by the Committee on Laws.] This was before the age of multi-national corporations. “I am not so sure they'd feel the same today” about dealing with the private sector rather than the public sector.

SELECTION OF GEORGE HALL TO SUCCEED NAGORSNE
Scope and Content Note: Emmett Terry, a Teamster from Green Bay, was the only other person considered. Hall, from the Painters Union, had done a good job running the La Crosse Trades and Labor Council and had good WSFL experience as resolutions committee chairman. There was no consideration of any Federal Labor Union person. Jake Friedrick by that time had given up any ambitions for WSFL office.

ROLE/PURPOSE OF THE WSFL
Scope and Content Note: Mostly legislative. Also a service organization for affiliates. Also public relations. Did very little organizing after about 1945.

DISTINCTION BETWEEN WSFL AND THE AFL REGIONAL OFFICE
Scope and Content Note: The regional office was mainly a servicing organization. Jake Friedrick, Regional Director, acted as a business agent for the Federal Unions. Strike benefits for Federal Unions depended on authorization from the regional office. WSFL would assist in organizing, but it was the regional office's responsibility.

MORE ON WSFL ROLE
Scope and Content Note: The conduit, or coordinator, for city central bodies. After the merger, the staff of the new Wisconsin State AFL-CIO was greater than that of the WSFL because everyone from the Wisconsin State Industrial Union Council (State IUC) staff was added.

FEDERAL LABOR UNIONS AFTER THE MERGER
Scope and Content Note: CIO unions “got active in picking up Federal Labor Unions.... You were fair game then for anybody.” By raising the per capita tax, the AFL-CIO pressured Federal Unions to join international unions.

END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 2

INTRODUCTION

FARMER-LABOR POLITICAL ALLIANCES IN WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: Because of its diversity, there were many battles within the AFL itself. Thus it was even more difficult to reach a common ground with farmers. Never worked with the Farm Bureau. Did cooperate with farmer groups in the effort to rebuild the Democratic Party. With success of the Democratic Party, however, “the farmers and the labor unions weren't in a position where they felt they needed to continue their relationship.... I think they're back now....” Probably the whole oleomargarine debate was an issue upon which farmers and labor could not agree. Right now the two groups again feel they need to work together.

ROLE OF WSFL IN REJUVENATION OF THE WISCONSIN DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: The WSFL always endorsed Republican Congressman Alvin O'Konski, who always voted right on labor issues. The CIO and the Federal Labor Unions were more active than the skilled trades in the WSFL in rebuilding the Wisconsin Democratic Party.

LABOR'S ROLE IN THE 1946 U.S. SENATE PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Labor did not do as much for Robert La Follette, Jr., as it could have. “They didn't know Joe McCarthy.”

HABERMAN AND NAGORSNE'S RELATIONSHIPS WITH REPUBLICANS
Scope and Content Note: Haberman was accused of supporting Thomas Dewey for President in 1948 but denied it in front of the convention. Haberman always claimed to be an independent. Haberman met with Dewey but said he did not endorse him.

CITIZENS' NON-PARTISAN CONFERENCE ON POLITICAL EDUCATION (CNCPE)
Scope and Content Note: Permitted anyone to join who was liberally inclined. Was soon dominated by the State IUC because the AFL's creation of Labor's League for Political Education on the national level diluted Wisconsin's CNCPE. Money for CNCPE was supposed to be funnelled through the WSFL, but locals preferred to make contributions directly. The CIO, being more centralized, could maintain better control.

WSFL AND STATE IUC POLITICAL DIFFERENCES
Scope and Content Note: Generally agreed on issues, but often disagreed on political appointments to commissions, boards, and so on. Up until about six years ago, there were generally more “AFL” appointments to policy making bodies than “CIO” appointments. Governor Martin Schreiber “probably listened to the CIO a little more.”

LEGISLATIVE ISSUES OF CONCERN TO LABOR PRIOR TO MERGER
Scope and Content Note: The vocational school system. The School for Workers. Other educational issues. “Schools took up as much time in the legislative process as anything we did.” General issues that affected the entire population, like the Public Service Commission. Seventy-five percent of the things supported by labor affect people not in unions. “They support a general program for the benefit of the person who can't protect himself.” The CIO was not any more active on non-labor issues than the AFL, but the CIO was more publicity conscious.

AFL-CIO MERGER IN WISCONSIN--DIFFERENCES AND CONCERNS
Scope and Content Note: The industrial versus craft union feeling was still there. Whiteside was on the WSFL's merger committee, becoming its chairman after a while. The State IUC feared high per capita taxes and opposed the proposed officers' salaries as being too high. The salaries issue was not new; in the 1940s, the WSFL industrial unions opposed the officers' salary levels, although Whiteside dissented in this instance. The State IUC also feared being “gobbled up and absorbed instead of merged.” WSFL unions were concerned about the State IUC's militancy. WSFL was like “an old farm work horse,” and the CIO was like “a young stallion that hadn't been broke yet.” The CIO feared losing some of its momentum. Concerns also over the jurisdiction of the various officers. Per capita tax was the last issue settled; State IUC wanted six cents, WSFL wanted ten cents, compromised on nine cents. R.J. Thomas (then a George Meany assistant), the current head of the Building Service Employees, the president of the Firefighters, and others came to Wisconsin to try to push the merger along.

FEDERAL LABOR UNIONS' REACTION TO THE MERGER
Scope and Content Note: Generally favored it. Felt it would be an opportunity to move into international unions.

MORE ON DIFFERENCES AT THE TIME OF MERGER
Scope and Content Note: WSFL people were concerned about having Charles Schultz as vice president.

END OF TAPE 3, SIDE 1

INTRODUCTION

EXIT OF CHARLES SCHULTZ AS STATE AFL-CIO EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT
Scope and Content Note: A capable man, but there was dissatisfaction with his work.

HOWARD PELLANT
Scope and Content Note: He wanted a state-level job rather than one with an international union. He ran against Schultz in 1958 and, again, against John Schmitt in 1960.

ELECTION OF JOHN SCHMITT AS EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT
Scope and Content Note: There were more experienced people, like Bertram McNamara, Walter Burke, Harvey Kitzman, and Bob Davidson, but they were either unavailable or simply did not want the job. Most of them preferred their positions with international unions.

THE MERGER OF THE WSFL AND THE STATE IUC:
Scope and Content Note: The threat of imposed merger from outside was serious, at least toward the end. Gene Moats, from the Building Service Employees, came in from Chicago. Schmitt and Burke did most of the negotiating for the State IUC.

MERGER IN KENOSHA
Scope and Content Note: The state-level bodies did not want merger locally until it was settled on the state level. In Kenosha, there was a dispute over offices. Jerry Clark was president of the Kenosha Industrial Union Council, and Whiteside was president of the Kenosha Trades and Labor Council. The Kenosha Trades and Labor Council, being older, felt it should have the presidency and finally got it. Per capita tax and Executive Board representation were also problems. Also, Whiteside was very busy working on the state merger.

LABOR UNITY IN KENOSHA PRIOR TO MERGER
Scope and Content Note: The harmony was genuine. If a raid by an international union was in the offing, the two city labor bodies would sit down and work it out. Each body also assessed its affiliates to support strikes by affiliates of the other. The Workers Community Welfare Fund had equal AFL and CIO representatives. They took turns on commission appointments and cooperated on political issues. After merger, when UAW Local 72 officers were voted out, they would be appointed to various committees. “CIO guys were all good workers.” “We had, from 1945 to 1958, complete cooperation between the AF of L and the CIO in the City of Kenosha.” When the Teamsters were thrown out of the AFL-CIO, Whiteside kept them in the Kenosha AFL-CIO Council until pressured by George Meany. “We just got along, that's all.” “We did a lot of things here that national policy didn't always dictate...and the unions in the city prospered by it.”

UAW LOCAL 72
Scope and Content Note: Although very large, it is not the most influential group in Kenosha, because the AFL unions represent a greater cross section of the population.

MORE ON KENOSHA'S LABOR UNITY
Scope and Content Note: The Union Co-op Publishing Company--Kenosha Labor--was owned and controlled by both AFL and CIO unions.

THE STRENGTH OF LABOR IN KENOSHA AND RACINE
Scope and Content Note: Racine had similar labor unity. Both cities are highly industrialized and thoroughly unionized. This strength permits labor to be more aggressive than in other cities. Kenosha has a long history of unionism.

POST-MERGER RELATIONS BETWEEN FORMER AFL UNIONS AND FORMER CIO UNIONS IN WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: Good. The building trades became less powerful. The two groups melded together. There have been differences--like the McGovern presidential campaign--but there is no “division when it comes to the operations of the State AFL-CIO.” There are differences about political candidates and legislative goals, but there is no difference over whom the leaders of the State AFL-CIO should be. No one is looking to replace the current officers.

FEDERAL UNIONS IN THE POST-MERGER PERIOD
Scope and Content Note: Most joined the Machinists, the Automobile Workers, and the Steelworkers, probably about equally divided amongst those three unions.

ELECTION OF JOHN SCHMITT AS PRESIDENT AND JOHN GIACOMO AS EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT IN 1966 WAS EVIDENCE THAT THE PRE-MERGER DIVISIONS HAD ALMOST DISAPPEARED

ELECTION OF JOSEPH GRUBER AS EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT IN 1974
Scope and Content Note: Schmitt wanted Robert Durkin for the position. Both Durkin and Gruber were from former AFL industrial unions.

MANDATORY RETIREMENT AMENDMENT AT THE 1964 STATE AFL-CIO CONVENTION
Scope and Content Note: This was not passed for the purpose of eliminating Haberman. If that had been a consideration, there would have been more opposition to it. Haberman, after retiring, got a position with the Continental Bank.

STATE AFL-CIO FUNCTIONS TODAY ARE BASICALLY THE SAME AS PRE-MERGER
Scope and Content Note: Legislation is still a prime concern. Much more concern now with issues affecting public employees.

END OF TAPE 3, SIDE 2

INTRODUCTION

“THE PROGRAM” REALLY HAS NOT CHANGED MUCH SINCE MERGER

MAIN CONCERNS SINCE MERGER
Scope and Content Note: Legislation and candidates. A big issue was the dispute over federal versus state control of factory inspection. Concern over federal judge appointments. For about 20 years, the State AFL-CIO was very successful legislatively and with getting its candidates elected. Today the story has changed; “they got a lotta problems.”

INFLUX OF PUBLIC EMPLOYEES INTO THE STATE AFL-CIO AND ALSO NATIONALLY
Scope and Content Note: This has been good in that it has brought unionism to areas of the state and nation “where they had never understood it or thought about it before.” The tension between public and private sector workers.

WISCONSIN'S DECLINING INDUSTRIAL BASE
Scope and Content Note: Wisconsin used to be able to maintain industry because of its skilled workers, but automation has changed that. Companies need fewer skilled workers and prefer to construct new plants in the South, closer to energy sources and cheaper labor. The Simmons Company left Kenosha, claiming the plant could not be made efficient. American Motors, however, moved into the facility and made it one of their most efficient plants. Now it is going to be converted to the manufacture of Renaults. So it was not the plant's inefficiency; “it was a case that Simmons thought they could make more money in the South....” Because of southern water problems, the trend may someday reverse.

LABOR CAN ONLY BE STRONG WHERE THE ECONOMY IS STRONG
Scope and Content Note: The labor movement will have some rough years and then bounce back strongly. The South will become organized.

WORKERS TODAY ARE MORE INTERESTED, BUT LESS ACTIVE, IN THEIR UNIONS
Scope and Content Note: Because of automatic dues increases, one traditional incentive to attend union meetings is gone.

UNIONS NEED TO DO A BETTER EDUCATIONAL JOB
Scope and Content Note: In Kenosha, labor leaders have been meeting with the Superintendent of Schools, trying to get more labor education into the curriculum. Workers take many of their fringe benefits for granted. Pensions and health and welfare programs in the Meat Cutters' union cost $239.50 per month. The employer pays it all; union dues are $22.56 per month. “But...they take all of this kind of for granted.”

UNIONS HAVE A DIFFICULT COMMUNICATIONS JOB TO PERFORM
Scope and Content Note: Whiteside has had a plain language pamphlet compiled on Meat Cutters' benefits.

SUMMARY STATEMENT
Scope and Content Note: It was very important for labor to get into politics, “but sometimes you have a problem figuring out who your friends are” in politics.

END OF INTERVIEW