Textile Workers Union of America Oral History Project: Solomon Barkin Interview, 1977

Contents List

Container Title
November 7, 1977 session
Tape/Side   1/1
Time   00:00
Introduction
Tape/Side   1/1
Time   00:30
Biographical Background - European Yiddish Socialist Upbringing
Scope and Content Note: Born in 1907 in New York, raised in Jewish community. Parents Jewish Russian Socialists (“Bund”); active in 1905 Revolution, fled post-revolution repression in 1906. Father a construction foreman. Yiddish spoken at home; supplementary weekend education in socialist, “Bundist,” Yiddish school; raised in highly intellectualized atmosphere. 1926-1927, correspondent for Yiddish Lithuanian newspaper. Taught in Bund schools on socialism, utopias, etc.
Tape/Side   1/1
Time   05:45
1920s Right Wing-Left Wing Socialist Battles in New York City
Scope and Content Note: Very involved as representative of right wing (Social-Democratic) bias. Left-right battles raged at City College during his attendance, 1924-28.
Tape/Side   1/1
Time   08:45
A Non-Dogmatic Socialist
Scope and Content Note: Voted Democratic. Later, more dogmatic socialists within the TWUA looked suspiciously upon him for this lack of dogmatism.
Tape/Side   1/1
Time   10:55
Higher Education and Early Teaching Experience
Scope and Content Note: CCNY. History and economics major. Taught at CCNY right after college. Neo-classical economics department at CCNY, so attended Columbia graduate school (1928-29; 1932-33). Discussion of the state of economic thought in New York at the time. Search for “a third way” (other than Russian Marxism or neo-classical). At Columbia, worked with Wesley Mitchell and Arthur Burns.
Tape/Side   1/1
Time   15:15
Job with New York State Commission on Old Age Security, 1929-1933
Scope and Content Note: Assistant director of research. Continued to teach and do graduate work. Drafted first old age assistance law in the U.S. in 1930. Wrote The Older Worker in Industry, a report for the Commission, which also served as his Ph.D. dissertation.
Tape/Side   1/1
Time   16:30
Went to Work for NIRA in July 1933
Scope and Content Note: Got job through Leo Wolman, who had been chairman of his dissertation committee. Barkin became assistant Executive Director of the Labor Advisory Board; in charge of the staff. In charge of construction industry and graphic arts labor provision codes.
Tape/Side   1/1
Time   21:00
Sidney Hillman - Barkin's First Contacts
Scope and Content Note: Hillman on Labor Advisory Board. Barkin felt needle trades competent to handle own codes. Hillman and Barkin at loggerheads because Hillman pushing interest of garment industry and Barkin more concerned with totality of American industry and those industries which did not have strong enough unions to properly participate. Became good friends with Hillman's secretary.
Tape/Side   1/1
Time   23:20
Continued Labor Advisory Board Work after NIRA Declared Unconstitutional
Scope and Content Note: Retained to pull together all the records, write final reports, etc., for nine months and then to write a report of his experience working for the Board, to be done for the Commission on Industrial Analysis (part of Department of Commerce). Secretary of Commerce wanted to get rid of him, but Frances Perkins, Isador Lubin, and Senator Robert Wagner prevented his being fired.
Tape/Side   1/1
Time   25:55
Invited by Hillman to Work for Textile Workers Organizing Committee (TWOC)
Scope and Content Note: Personally chose the title “Director of Research” and insisted on using that title no matter what role he was filling; and he filled several during TWOC days.
Tape/Side   1/2
Time   00:00
Introduction
Tape/Side   1/2
Time   00:30
Why Hillman Chose Barkin
Scope and Content Note: Barkin does not really know, though assumes it was because he had the courage to stand up to Hillman on the Labor Advisory Board. Did maintain personal relationship with Hillman through his secretary, despite preoccupation with Labor Advisory Board that involved 14-18 hours a day, seven days a week.
Tape/Side   1/2
Time   03:20
Other Job Possibilities Before Hillman's Offer
Scope and Content Note: Job with Iron Workers practically sewed up when Hillman offer came. Almost hired as research director for American Federation of Labor (AFL) Building Trades Department, but Electrical Workers Union refused to return to the Department if such additional expenses were to be incurred.
Tape/Side   1/2
Time   06:10
Struggle Between Wisconsin Idea and Eastern Idea over Federal Social Insurance Plans
Scope and Content Note: Wisconsin “experience rating” system versus Eastern system based on European concepts. John R. Commons theories versus those of I. M. Rubinow and Abraham Epstein.
Tape/Side   1/2
Time   09:30
Digression into How He Got Job with New York Commission on Old Age Security
Scope and Content Note: Wrote to chairman of the Commission after reading about its creation in the newspaper; was referred to the director, who had already been appointed; was hired and was the only one of initial employees to stick it out.
Tape/Side   1/2
Time   11:35
More on Wisconsin-Eastern Differences over Social Security Plan
Scope and Content Note: “Experience rating” versus uniform standards/benefits. Easterners more interested in old age security and Wisconsinites in unemployment insurance. Eastern group Frances Perkins, Alfred Smith, Franklin Roosevelt, Henry Street Settlement, Henry Morgenthau, Isador Lubin. Wisconsinites had greater influence in creation of the unemployment insurance program, as evidenced by the federal-state mixture. Wisconsin influence, however, had waned by end of 1930s and Easterners got their way with Old Age Security.
Tape/Side   1/2
Time   14:05
Critique of Commons School
Scope and Content Note: Selig Perlman unsympathetic to the Congress of Industrial Organization (CIO). Artificial prestige of Wisconsin school based on Commons myth. Perlman never understood Western European trade union movement, blinded by his prejudice against European socialist parties. Commons school influence peaked in 1932 and had some revival in 1950s and early 1960s when industrial relations became more business-oriented. Elitist, “no ideology” era of industrial relations in late 1950s, fostered in part by Ford Foundation, as were the early 1950s Cold War attitudes. Wisconsin school has no real philosophy or meaning for evaluation of American collective bargaining system.
Tape/Side   1/2
Time   20:00
More on Wisconsin-Eastern Social Insurance Theories
Scope and Content Note: Since Wisconsin won out on unemployment insurance and U.S. employment office, both systems have built in the unfortunate state-federal mixture; furthermore, the experience rating system has proven worthless. Based on Commons philosophy that law should be based on the most advanced practice of the time (which in this case was the Wisconsin unemployment law and the Commons-devised system in use by the Clothing Workers in Chicago) and not on a philosophy of forging ahead with new approaches. Old Age Security aspect tacked on only later because of the Townsend Movement and Easterners were in ascendency then.
Tape/Side   1/2
Time   23:50
Work for Hillman Just Prior to TWOC Formation
Scope and Content Note: Barkin hired with little instruction. Hired a few weeks before actual formation of TWOC. Barkin given task in meantime of investigating gangster influence in Newark, N.J., clothing industry. Discovered Mafia had thoroughly infiltrated the industry as dummy partners.
Tape/Side   1/2
Time   26:35
Digression into Favorable Characterization of Charles Howard of Typographical Union
Tape/Side   1/2
Time   27:10
Inauguration of TWOC
Scope and Content Note: No specific directions. Initial task was to set up the office.
Tape/Side   2/1
Time   00:00
Introduction
Tape/Side   2/1
Time   00:30
Inauguration of TWOC (Continued)
Scope and Content Note: Hillman threw the entire resources of the Amalgamated Clothing Workers (ACW) into the effort - structure, finances, personnel. Hence, the structure and the people were there and knew what to do. Headquarters job therefore relatively easy - sign checks, minimal direction. The Amalgamated “let loose to organize textile workers.”
Tape/Side   2/1
Time   04:20
Why Hillman Decided on Such a Large Commitment for His Organization
Scope and Content Note: Longtime dream of a union of both clothing and textile workers. Also, a dream of extending his “individual system of collective bargaining” to the textile industry cooperative, collaborative industrial relations system. A philosophy of industry-wide collective bargaining, stability, cooperation.
Tape/Side   2/1
Time   07:05
Characterization of Sidney Hillman
Scope and Content Note: Farsighted, broad-minded, skillful administrator, close infighter.
Tape/Side   2/1
Time   08:15
Hillman Dream of Using Clothing Manufacturers for Leverage on Textile Manufacturers
Scope and Content Note: Dream never fulfilled, except to some extent in the woolen industry and the silk industry where textile products were used extensively by the clothing industry.
Tape/Side   2/1
Time   10:05
Hillman Only One Amongst CIO Leaders Who Could Take on the Job
Scope and Content Note: David Dubinsky (International Ladies' Garment Workers) playing both sides (AFL and CIO) at the time. Hillman had the personal discipline and also the discipline within his Union to do the job, much like John L. Lewis and the Mine Workers had in the Steel organizing campaign.
Tape/Side   2/1
Time   11:30
Camaraderie and Loyalty of Clothing Workers Involved in TWOC
Scope and Content Note: Close personal family ties; most came up from the ranks and had fought the battles necessary to form the ACW. Sixty ACW organizers assigned, full or part time, to TWOC. “Fundamentally this was the Amalgamated taking over the organization work lock, stock, and barrel.”
Tape/Side   2/1
Time   15:45
TWOC in the South - Steve Nance
Scope and Content Note: Nance, southern director, was very respected and expected southern employers to fall into line and bargain contracts with him personally after TWOC won an election because of the personal prestige he had in the South. It did not work that way and “that was the great disappointment of the southern campaign.” Nance died and his successor, Roy Lawrence, could not deliver the South either; could not “duplicate a northern show.” Southern employers just not susceptible to arguments in favor of responsible collective bargaining; did not want union intrusion no matter how responsible.
Tape/Side   2/1
Time   18:10
TWOC's 650 Organizers
Scope and Content Note: Because of existing ACW structure, this great number did not present any administrative problems. Hence, Barkin could concentrate on research, on educating people about the textile industry, about which few people knew much. Organizers came largely from the ranks of ACW, from textile workers who exhibited leadership during the 1934 Textile Strike (like John Chupka), from the Dyers Federation (Sol Stetin and others), and from southerners Nance knew. Payroll handled through national office.
Tape/Side   2/1
Time   23:50
Future TWUA Leaders Not Prominent in TWOC
Scope and Content Note: Rieve began to play a larger role during the months immediately preceding the May 1939 TWUA founding convention. No future leaders were stationed in New York or visited New York headquarters very often. Rieve did not really take over until elected president at the Convention. During the TWOC period, Rieve, Baldanzi and Pollock were all of local significance only.
Tape/Side   2/2
Time   00:00
Introduction
Tape/Side   2/2
Time   00:30
Anecdote about First TWUA Staff Meeting
Scope and Content Note: Held immediately after first convention, Rieve announced that henceforth all correspondence and communication should be with him, the President, and no longer with Barkin.
Tape/Side   2/2
Time   02:15
Characterization of Emil Rieve
Scope and Content Note: A “wonderful guy to work with”; derided the “intellectuals,” but surrounded himself with very bright people and always incorporated their ideas after careful personal analysis. TWUA had best staff in the Union Movement. Rieve gave Barkin considerable leeway, never limited him.
Tape/Side   2/2
Time   05:35
Barkin and the TWUA Research Department
Scope and Content Note: Extremely busy; the authoritative voice on the textile industry. Produced numerous works on the industry.
Tape/Side   2/2
Time   07:15
Anecdote about Baldanzi Challenging Barkin's Authority
Scope and Content Note: In 1941, Baldanzi asked for a group of statistics: Barkin asked why he wanted them, being fearful of an improper use of the statistics. Baldanzi, insulted, went to Rieve who quieted things down. Rieve always able to make light of things when Barkin had run-ins with staff or officers.
Tape/Side   2/2
Time   08:45
Rieve Expressed Appreciation for Barkin in 1958, after Retirement
Tape/Side   2/2
Time   09:50
Doctrinaire Socialists on TWUA Staff Suspicious of Barkin's Pragmatism
Tape/Side   2/2
Time   11:10
TWOC Organization of American Woolen Company an Outgrowth of Hillman's Organizing from the Top Down, Through Contacts with Businessmen
Scope and Content Note: Reinforced Hillman's theory that ACW organizing/bargaining tactics could be extended to the textile industry.
Tape/Side   2/2
Time   13:05
Organizing by Strikes in the North, by Election Victories in the South
Tape/Side   2/2
Time   14:20
1937-1938 Recession: Destroys TWOC Momentum, Never to Be Regained
Tape/Side   2/2
Time   15:30
1938 Bigelow-Sanford Strike to Prevent Ten Percent Wage Cut
Scope and Content Note: Very dramatic; the sheer force of accidents and coincidents makes a mockery of historians who search for causes and effects. Two plants, one organized and one friendly, but unorganized. Barkin in charge. Never having engaged in bargaining or running a strike, called in United Textile Workers' (UTW's) Milton Rosenberg. This strike brought William DuChessi into the union. Broad publicity and appeal; had more money after the strike than before. Carpet layers stopped work at Virginia Governor's Mansion. Hillman finally came in and settled it at the top. The times were auspicious for gaining public sympathy.
Tape/Side   2/2
Time   24:20
1938 Cotton Wage Cuts Unavoidable
Scope and Content Note: Knew they could not hold the wage line in cotton; hence, expulsion of New Bedford Textile Council for agreeing to wage cut actually a scapegoat action.
Tape/Side   2/2
Time   24:50
More on Bigelow-Sanford Strike
Scope and Content Note: Since President Roosevelt prevented railroad wage cuts and thereby established an informal anti-wage cut policy for first time during a recession, the public was sympathetic to strikes for maintenance of wage levels.
Tape/Side   2/2
Time   25:15
Bigelow-Sanford Arbitration Led Barkin to Develop New Theories of Corporate Cost-Accounting for the Purposes of Collective Bargaining
Scope and Content Note: Attacked the company's inventory valuation policy; convinced arbitrator that low inventory valuations in mid-year were not valid reason for wage cuts. Later develops into theory that, for purposes of collective bargaining, corporate accounting should be like national income accounting which uses the concept of distributive shares, showing who is getting what from the corporation.
Tape/Side   3/1
Time   00:00
Introduction
Tape/Side   3/1
Time   00:40
Continuation of Discussion of His Theory of Using the Concept of “Distributive Share Principles” in Corporate Accounting for Collective Bargaining
Scope and Content Note: Referred to by John R. Commons in his analysis of public utility evaluation, but not picked up by others in collective bargaining in the U.S., although Europe is now providing Barkin with such an audience. Basically means “who's milking the corporation,” how are the income streams being distributed. Lack of such innovative approaches in the U.S. reflects poorly on both American trade unionists and American labor relations schools.
Tape/Side   3/1
Time   03:05
Further Explanation of This Theory and Its Possible Use
Scope and Content Note: Distributive shares comparable to “value added” or “working capital.” In other words, how much income is the corporation generating and who is getting what. Such statistics can be marshalled to be used as tools or ammunition in bargaining for higher wages.
Tape/Side   3/1
Time   07:50
Early TWOC Initiation Fees Were Lower Than Those for UTW Because TWOC Abolished Initiation Fees; Paid Only after Contract Signed
Tape/Side   3/1
Time   08:50
Advisory Council of TWOC
Scope and Content Note: Set up in November 1938 in lieu of an executive council for the purposes of consultation. Set up at this time perhaps as a method of introducing Rieve into the operation in a more active way and perhaps also as response to Gorman's movement toward a return to the AFL.
Tape/Side   3/1
Time   11:30
Frank Gorman
Scope and Content Note: NRA saved face for him in 1934 strike. Hillman had no use for Gorman because of his personal habits, his radical wife, and his conduct of the 1934 strike. One of the reasons Hillman moved into the textile situation was to move Gorman and Thomas McMahon aside. Gorman would have become Executive Vice-president of TWUA in place of Baldanzi if he had not returned to the AFL. Wooed by AFL, but also felt frustration and anger for having been displaced by Hillman.
Tape/Side   3/1
Time   17:50
How Pollock Became First Secretary-Treasurer
Scope and Content Note: Carl Holderman was favorite of many, but he was member of American Federation of Hosiery Workers which was Rieve's union and this would have unbalanced the top offices in favor of the AFHW. Also, Rieve probably preferred someone other than Holderman because Holderman might have been too independent, since he was inventive, bold, etc. James Starr was ill, cut no figure, and was not considered for secretary-treasurer of the new organization.
Tape/Side   3/1
Time   20:35
Formation of Textile Workers Union of America
Scope and Content Note: Primarily to relieve Hillman of the responsibility of running TWOC and probably also in response to Gorman's return to AFL.
Tape/Side   3/1
Time   22:35
Reasons for TWOC and TWUA Comparatively Infrequent Use of Strikes
Scope and Content Note: Hillman and ACW philosophy of responsible collective bargaining a much greater factor than the fact that past textile unions had suffered such great defeats. Also, by this time the NLRB, which was basically friendly to labor, provided an effective way to avoid strikes.
Tape/Side   3/1
Time   27:50
Employer Allegations That NLRB in Its Early Years Was Very Favorable to Unions Were Justified
Tape/Side   3/2
Time   00:00
Introduction
Tape/Side   3/2
Time   00:40
More on the Pro-Labor Bias of NLRB
Scope and Content Note: People went to work for NLRB because they wanted to implement unionization and collective bargaining. Pro-labor attitude began to change after World War II, as staff make-up reflected public opinion and Congressional attitudes; court decisions against labor were also reflected in NLRB staff. Taft-Hartley Act was just an incident in the process of opinions shifting against labor.
Tape/Side   3/2
Time   04:15
TWUA Research Department and Its Broad Functions
Scope and Content Note: During TWOC period, there was no publicity department or education department or finance department. Barkin, as Research Director, therefore had to assume all these functions. Only people in TWOC office were Barkin's staff, some finance people (part of administration), and an attorney.
Tape/Side   3/2
Time   07:50
TWOC Staff
Scope and Content Note: Attorney Alfred Udoff not really independent, always had to consult with ACW attorneys. John Abt, counsel of “Wage-Hour Bureau,” not really permanent, just helped on wage and hour cases; stationed in Washington, D.C.; served as political consultant to Hillman. “National Representatives” Thomas McMahon, Horace Riviere, and John White were not in New York; McMahon still had job as Rhode Island Commissioner of Labor; Riviere in New Hampshire; they were UTW people for whom a place had to be found. Herbert Payne, Director of Synthetic Yarn Division, was a hosiery worker; he was not in New York either; came in only after Rieve became active.
Tape/Side   3/2
Time   12:10
Failure of TWOC in the South: “The Great Tragedy”
Scope and Content Note: Roy Lawrence, Lower South Director, never conceived the problem “in the great strategic dimensions” which were required; did not have the potential of Steve Nance. Never any specific debates about what was required in the South which would differentiate it from the North. Nance brought an element of differentiation, but after his death the Union never gave any formal thinking to “a grandiose strategy” for the South. Barkin feels that if he had had 50,000 jobs for skilled males in the Carolinas, created by war work, the temper of the Carolinas could have been changed.
Tape/Side   3/2
Time   15:00
The Southern Worker
Scope and Content Note: Does not appreciate gains won for him by the Union through legislation, because union allegiance not deeply seeded, not a given. Basic culture of Southern worker is non-supportive of collective action.
Tape/Side   3/2
Time   17:30
Barkin Attempted to Find a Solution to the Problem of Organizing the Southern Textile Worker
Scope and Content Note: In 1950s Barkin spent much time grappling with this problem. Hired Duke University sociologist, Don Roy, to study mill villages the Union was trying to organize. Also brought in Lou Harris, the pollster, to study a community in order to find out what the attitudes were. Neither could provide any clues as to how to break through in the South; only able to provide more testimony of the social pressures. Union even supported publication of a University of North Carolina dissertation on textile communities. Seminars, training courses, organizers' questionnaires - all supported by the Union as part of Barkin's search for a key to organizing the South. Worked also with University of North Carolina out-patient psychiatric department; high incidence of neurotic textile mill employees; led to Barkin's article “The Personality Profile of a Textile Worker.” Constantly groping for new techniques.
Tape/Side   3/2
Time   23:35
Barkin's Proposed Solutions to the Problem of Organizing the Southern Textile Worker
Scope and Content Note: Finally concluded that the culture problem of the South precluded success in the South simply by improving on old methods. Determined that a new approach was needed: had to concentrate on converting an entire community and forego the old method of concentrating on one company at a time. Hence, when the Union dropped the Burlington campaign, Barkin discouraged taking up the J.P. Stevens campaign. By 1962 he urged a completely new Labor Relations Act specifically for southern textiles; no support within trade unions for such an extreme measure. Because of this backward attitude, the “bastions of union power” no longer have much power except for the Auto Workers and the Teamsters.
Tape/Side   4/1
Time   00:00
Introduction
Tape/Side   4/1
Time   00:40
Current Decline of the Labor Movement
Scope and Content Note: While employer anti-unionism is spreading, trade union response is largely formal and legalistic rather than direct responses which might encourage public support. Unwillingness to accept the fact that unionism cannot be sold easily.
Tape/Side   4/1
Time   03:10
The Basic Problem in Organizing the South
Scope and Content Note: Religious and cultural aversion to collective action. Barkin does not agree with the TWUA line that southern workers want to be organized, that it is the community and the employers who prevent organization. To change the attitude of the southern worker takes a great traumatic and psychological experience, such as happened in 1934. Also needed is a nucleus of southerners who have left the South, experienced other cultures, and returned; this type of person in the past often provided a base for organizing drives. American trade unions do not recognize this imbedded cultural characteristic and thus continue to think in terms of winning NLRB elections on a piecemeal basis rather than trying to change the patterns of thinking and then attempting to organize. South lacks a base of organized skilled workers to build upon.
Tape/Side   4/1
Time   11:15
1937 Recession and Steve Nance's Death Halted TWOC Southern Drive, Momentum Never to Be Regained
Scope and Content Note: Inroads made previous to the recession, but recession prevented signing of contracts in many mills that had been organized. Nance and Hillman were probably overly optimistic; but Nance's successor, Roy Lawrence, was incapable of duplicating even Nance's modest gains.
Tape/Side   4/1
Time   12:45
Failure of Union Leadership to Recognize That the South Is Different and Requires Different Approaches Has Precluded Success in the South
Scope and Content Note: Ultimately, must change the total climate.
Tape/Side   4/1
Time   15:15
Southern Blacks and the Labor Movement
Scope and Content Note: Blacks, because of their religious and cultural experience, are more inclined toward collective action and thus more readily join unions. Blacks still largely confined to garment industry, still not particularly significant in textile industry, though numbers increasing.
Tape/Side   4/1
Time   16:50
TWUA Leadership Did Not Really Have Much Confidence That They Could Break Through in the South
Scope and Content Note: Emphasis was on the North.
Tape/Side   4/1
Time   18:25
Victory in the South Will Require Acceptance by the Trade Union Movement of Entirely New Approaches
Scope and Content Note: Finally gave up the Burlington campaign in 1950s once they realized the extent to which the company would go to resist the Union. Then repeated the mistake by moving into the Stevens chain. Breakthrough in the South will come only after an acceptance of new theories of collective bargaining that use the law in a radical manner which will impose employee representation through the power of the government. Similar to European “Works Council”; a vehicle through which the trade union movement could operate. American trade union leadership not prepared to even consider such extreme methods. “The continued advocacy of the traditional American system of voluntary collective bargaining only means continued shrinkage of collective bargaining in this country.”
Tape/Side   4/1
Time   22:50
Hillman Retained Very Little Influence over Textiles after Formation of TWUA
Scope and Content Note: Had practically withdrawn from the situation by late 1938 because of physical condition. Role as Chairman of TWUA Executive Council was only honorary.
Tape/Side   4/1
Time   24:10
Concentration of Power in TWUA International Office
Scope and Content Note: Probably more concentrated than other unions; this concentration reflected Rieve's philosophy. Rieve, in effect, appointed almost all Joint Board managers; appointed all staff; and organizational decisions were largely in his hands. Off-setting that, however, was the fact that Rieve allowed staff considerable leeway once they had been appointed to their position.
Tape/Side   4/1
Time   27:40
Rieve Had Great Insistence on Keeping the Union Solvent
Tape/Side   4/2
Time   00:00
Introduction
Tape/Side   4/2
Time   00:30
More on the Concentration of Power in the TWUA International Office
Scope and Content Note: Lack of International power in the UTW was celebrated. Autonomy of Hosiery and Dyers Federations respected by TWUA. New locals looked to the International to solve everything. Does not see local dependence on International as a weakness because the local mills are dependent on the condition of the industry. The interrelationship of units, the close competitive conditions, the uniformity of wage movements, and the similarity of conditions made a strong International Union, which could coordinate all this, a necessity.
Tape/Side   4/2
Time   06:05
In North, Locals More and More Identified with Industry Division
Scope and Content Note: This reinforced by TWUA industry meetings. A natural outgrowth of the UTW federation set up. This built a comprehension of the interdependence of locals.
Tape/Side   4/2
Time   08:00
Barkin Felt Very Comfortable with the Strong International Set Up
Tape/Side   4/2
Time   09:55
In 1939 TWUA People Firmly Believed That the Industry Would Someday Be 100 Percent Organized
Scope and Content Note: Weeding out of weak plants during 1930s depression, followed by wartime prosperity, and postwar boom reinforced and perpetuated this belief by providing a feeling that the industry might no longer be prone to cyclical depressions which formerly had thwarted organizational drives. General optimistic feeling because of general upward trend of all unions.
Tape/Side   4/2
Time   11:45
As Early as Late 1930s Barkin Realized That TWUA Success Linked to General Attitude of the Total Society to Labor Unions
Scope and Content Note: Noticed that TWUA made progress only when the rest of the labor movement was making progress. Example, 1941 saw an upswing in union successes and TWUA able to benefit in that climate by organizing Alexander Smith Carpet in Yonkers, N.Y.
Tape/Side   4/2
Time   14:30
Rieve, Like Many American Trade Union Leaders, Was Not Strong for New Organization
Scope and Content Note: Baldanzi much more devoted to organizing, but he not profound enough to really understand it. Rieve did not have the feeling or sense for it. Like most trade union leaders, primarily interested in institutional operation and collective bargaining. New organization always set off to the side. George Meany a prime example. Skilled as administrators, not organizers.
Tape/Side   4/2
Time   18:30
World War II Provided Labor Many Leverages Which It Was Never to Enjoy Again
Scope and Content Note: War Labor Board (WLB) machinery could be manipulated to force recalcitrant employers to bargain. TWUA made much organizational progress during the War; the total American collective bargaining scene “was solidified, formalized...by the War Labor Board.”
Tape/Side   4/2
Time   20:15
Most American Industrial Relations Experts and Labor Economists Still Living with a Design Created by the War Labor Board
Scope and Content Note: Talk of “free collective bargaining, voluntary collective bargaining” is meaningless today. Very few fundamental changes have come about since the demise of the WLB. American system of collective bargaining has been stagnant since the end of WLB.
Tape/Side   4/2
Time   23:10
Barkin Would Propose a War Labor Board Type of Control in the South in Order to Give Labor an Opportunity to Break Through
Scope and Content Note: “That kind of imposition of government power” is needed to force employers to bargain with labor. Such a proposition looks strange to the Wisconsin school of labor economists, who live on the myths created by the WLB bargaining atmosphere.
November 9, 1977 session
Tape/Side   5/1
Time   00:00
Introduction
Tape/Side   5/1
Time   00:35
More Biographical Background
Scope and Content Note: Born in Brooklyn, moved to Irish-Jewish neighborhood in Manhattan at early age. Father belonged to a union intermittently; belonged to a Jewish carpenters union, since Jews not permitted to join the regular Carpenters Union. Married 1940; three children. Wife is psychiatric social worker. Jobs before going to work for New York State Commission on Old Age Security: summer camp counselor; in winter, during college, in charge of playgrounds in cooperative housing projects in the Bronx, one of which was run by the ACW.
Tape/Side   5/1
Time   07:40
TWOC'S 650 Organizers
Scope and Content Note: Mostly part time; assumed to be a temporary position; hence, returned to the mill when Fall 1937 recession required cut in TWOC staff; many probably retained regular jobs while doing organizing. Throughout TWUA history, local, temporary organizers - sometimes paid no more than expenses - worked for the Union. Full time organizers not dropped from staff when 1937 recession hit.
Tape/Side   5/1
Time   11:00
Rieve Became More Involved in TWOC in Early 1939 But Did Not Move to New York
Scope and Content Note: Had no intention of taking over until his leadership formalized by Convention.
Tape/Side   5/1
Time   12:15
More on Pro-Labor Bias of the Early NLRB
Scope and Content Note: Staff of NLRB accessible to labor leaders, had common purpose and basic sympathy.
Tape/Side   5/1
Time   13:45
Group of Eight People in New York City in 1920s Who Had a Distinctive Orientation Toward Labor and Social Insurance
Scope and Content Note: Met near Gramercy Park to discuss labor problems and issues. Included Barkin, Edwin S. Smith (on first NLRB), Theresa Wolfson (concerned with women in trade unions), Arthur E. Suffern (Conciliation and Arbitration in the Coal Industry of America), and Paul Kellogg (Survey). This type of person flooded to the New Deal agencies, crusading to remake the world.
Tape/Side   5/1
Time   18:05
American Industrial Relations System Since 1933 Has Been Conditioned Not by a Philosophy but by Management Resistance
Scope and Content Note: This is a fundamental fact which industrial relations scholars forget. Prior to 1933 successful unionization occurred only where it was encouraged by management; management encouraged organization in order to stabilize the local labor market and in order to equalize competitive conditions. This practice of seeking stability through union contracts in a local labor market is common in Europe, partly because of the inherited guild system. In America, however, an individualistic, competitive orientation produced employers who resisted unionization, despite the stability it might bring. The 1933 Labor Relations Board of the NIRA was created as a vehicle to overcome this resistance and antagonism. In order to meet the resistance of individual employers, the NLRB brought the concept of organizing incrementally, by getting sole collective bargaining rights in each individual plant. Thus was lost the concept of organizing by geography, organizing a local labor market rather than of organizing each plant separately within that local labor market.
Tape/Side   5/1
Time   26:10
WLB and Other World War II Advantages Did Not Make TWUA Less Militant
Tape/Side   5/2
Time   00:00
Introduction
Tape/Side   5/2
Time   00:30
Continuation of Discussion of TWUA, World War II, and the WLB
Scope and Content Note: Labor knew how to utilize the WLB and it was usually futile for management to resist. Labor learned how to use laws and government to its advantage.
Tape/Side   5/2
Time   03:35
TWUA and Other Low Wage Industry Unions Had to Rely More on Legal and Governmental Aid Because Job Action Was Not an Attractive Alternative
Scope and Content Note: Sidney Hillman spearheaded drive for minimum wage legislation. Influenced Barkin to take up leadership within the CIO for minimum wage increases. Increases in minimum wage necessary to protect wage increases won by low wage industry unions. Heavy industry CIO unions not interested in minimum wage.
Tape/Side   5/2
Time   08:40
Walsh-Healey (Federal Government Contracts Law) Minimum Wage Act Derived From Section 7B of NIRA Which Barkin Used for Construction Industry Codes
Scope and Content Note: Based on European concept of stability in a competitive labor market. Provided that the prevailing wage in an area, which was usually a union wage, should be paid for all work on government contracts. Barkin able to implement this concept for construction industry in about 45 areas when he was drawing up NRA Codes.
Tape/Side   5/2
Time   13:25
TWUA Militancy
Scope and Content Note: Militancy, as traditionally defined, is almost suicidal in a low wage industry. Textile workers simply do not have the same kind of bargaining leverage as heavy industry, as proven by the sporadic and usually suicidal upsurges of militancy during the UTW period. Philosophy to save the union from such suicidal ups and downs is articulated in Barkin's 1939 convention report.
Tape/Side   5/2
Time   14:30
Digression Again into Discussion of the Change in American Industrial Relations Created by the NLRB
Scope and Content Note: Pre-1933 philosophy of providing stability by negotiating trade agreements was one articulated by Commons during his National Civic Federation days; perverted, however, by the National Civic Federation and the Metal Trades Association into anti-unionism. Barkin's focus begins with the NLRB when big business resistance to unionism forced the incremental process of trying to create individual units of bargaining. Labor never accomplished the task of “vanquish[ing] each bargaining unit separately” and this system now proving to be the undoing of labor. Friend of Bill Leiserson, who worked on the NIRA's NLRB, when this whole system was established on an ad hoc basis as the NLRB tried to force individual companies to comply with Section 7A of NRA. Interestingly, the main turning point in the labor history of that period was the unionization of the steel industry; and John L. Lewis did not organize Steel by unit, plant by plant, but by total company, by transformation of the company unions into independent unions, by employing the Sidney Hillman system of negotiating the transformation from the top.
Tape/Side   5/2
Time   19:35
TWUA Works within the Existing Oligarchic Structure of American Industry Whereby Key Oligopolistic Companies Set the Standards for the Rest of Their Industry
Scope and Content Note: Organized American Woolen Company, which was the trend setter in Woolen and Worsted. Similarly, in the South, TWUA organized Riverside and Dan River; bargained the contract; before the contract even ratified, Cannon announced the same agreement and the rest of the industry followed this wage leader; obvious implication is that Southern textile leaders had made prior agreement as to what would be conceded to the Union. Southern cotton industry dominated by Charles Cannon. This oligopolistic characteristic of American industry had been set as early as the turn of the century.
Tape/Side   5/2
Time   24:30
Options to the Unit Bargaining Concept Established by the NLRB
Scope and Content Note: Could have used the Section 7B option, the European system, which came out of the medieval tradition of setting industry standards for a given area in a milieu of small plants. Example: Germany before World War I where a powerful trade union movement was organized not by industry but by area. This system criticized by Americans because it does not enhance the position of large, national labor unions.
Tape/Side   6/1
Time   00:00
Introduction
Tape/Side   6/1
Time   00:30
Continuation of Discussion of European System of Trade Unions
Scope and Content Note: Unionization in Germany penetrated large plants only during World War I and then only with the aid of the military because labor was so important to the war effort. Admittedly, this European system of “Works Councils,” of regional organization, imposed to some extent by the government, does not redound to immediate union membership. In Europe this true to a certain extent; but the union orientation of the workers, growing out of the guild system, overcomes that. European employers favor this system because it keeps the Unions out of the plants, though often unions do take over the “Works Councils.”
Tape/Side   6/1
Time   05:40
Barkin's Concept of What Should Be Done in the South Is Based on This System
Scope and Content Note: Governmentally imposed and operated collective bargaining system in order to sink roots within the area which could develop into strong unionism.
Tape/Side   6/1
Time   06:05
Concept Not Entirely Foreign to the U.S.; Nor Is It Necessarily Inimicable to the Interests of Organized Labor
Scope and Content Note: Barkin concept unacceptable because it is designed to improve working conditions without guaranteeing improvement in the position of labor unions. Basically, a works council or industrial relations committee of workers would be set up and whether a labor union could take over control or acquire affiliation of this group is problematical. Such employee representation systems had been in existence in the U.S. for some time; did not come to be called company unions until the 1930s. When these employee representation systems became dominated by the companies, the employees revolted and formed labor unions - particularly in Steel. Also, unions could take advantage of this existing structure, as they are doing in Europe, to build more solid organizations.
Tape/Side   6/1
Time   11:35
Barkin Sees This Governmental Imposition as the Only Way to Break Through in the South
Scope and Content Note: J.P. Stevens Boycott not receiving acceptance by American public. Proposed changes in Labor Relations Law will have little effect.
Tape/Side   6/1
Time   13:30
Summation of Barkin Concept of Applying European System to U.S.
Tape/Side   6/1
Time   14:25
World War II WLB “Cotton Case”
Scope and Content Note: Revocation of the TWUA no-strike pledge primarily a public relations move. Rieve and Executive Council knew the case was to be decided imminently.
Tape/Side   6/1
Time   18:10
WLB'S “Little Steel Formula” Worked to the Advantage of TWUA
Scope and Content Note: Exceptions made for low-wage industries. These exceptions not difficult to attain in the war atmosphere and in the residual social reform atmosphere of the 1930s.
Tape/Side   6/1
Time   20:15
TWUA Research Department Focus on Raising Wages within Textiles by Government Intervention Through Use of the Argument That It Was a Low-Wage Industry
Scope and Content Note: 1944 study of the cost of living for a low-wage worker. Study conducted by Larry Cohen (now a Professor of Industrial Engineering at Columbia University), a member of TWUA Research Department.
Tape/Side   6/1
Time   21:50
Digression into Discussion of Quality of TWUA Staff
Scope and Content Note: Alumni of TWUA Research Department placed in important positions throughout the country today. Barkin hiring practice: if new employee survived a full year, required then to stay for five years, but had to leave at the end of the five years. Examples of successful alumni. Larry Rogin and Isadore Katz extremely competent in their departments as well.
Tape/Side   6/1
Time   24:55
More on TWUA and “Little Steel Formula”
Scope and Content Note: TWUA exploited the “Little Steel Formula.” Could never have closed the gap between textile wages and heavy industry wages without the Little Steel Formula, the Wage and Hour Law, and other uses of governmental power to continually raise the base wage from which the Union could bargain.
Tape/Side   6/1
Time   25:50
Because of Loopholes, President Roosevelt's 1943 Executive Order to Hold the Line on Wages Did Not Hurt Textiles Either
Scope and Content Note: Barkin saw his job during these years as largely a search for loopholes in the various laws, orders, and rulings. This ability to find loopholes ingratiated the Research Department to the rest of the staff; and the ability to understand, interpret, and implement the various rulings of the WLB impressed employers who did not have time to do the job themselves.
Tape/Side   6/2
Time   00:00
Introduction
Tape/Side   6/2
Time   00:35
War Experience and Wartime Agencies Solidified the Collective Bargaining Process and Provided It with a More Developed Structure of Contract Negotiations as Begun under the NLRB
Scope and Content Note: Legitimatized many union demands; stabilized unions and collective bargaining. Have been “living off the fat” ever since. Stabilized the system to which the big companies had to some extent assented, leaving unions with no real authority except as a grievance machine. The seat of power remained with the companies - grievance structure, records structure, benefits structure; in other words, unions negotiated things which the companies should be doing, a complete reversal of the traditional structure where these personnel matters basically were in union hands. This was welcomed by the unions; this was what they were aspiring to get; allowed them to concentrate on bread and butter issues and not have to bother with administering the contract; by so doing, conceded too much in management rights.
Tape/Side   6/2
Time   10:40
Communism and TWUA
Scope and Content Note: Problem solved in TWOC days by assigning the known Communists to difficult situations which kept them preoccupied. Never much of a problem for TWUA.
Tape/Side   6/2
Time   14:15
Labor, Foreign Policy, and Internationalism
Scope and Content Note: Barkin sees Communist countries' rejection of participation in the Marshall Plan as an overt declaration of Cold War. A stupid move by the Russians, as is the current decision by President Carter to withdraw from the International Labor Organization, which he did to make George Meany happy and also because he probably could not get American unions and employers to participate any more anyway.
Tape/Side   6/2
Time   19:05
CIO, Communists, and the Cold War
Scope and Content Note: Phil Murray was the pivotal figure in the movement to expel alleged Communists from the CIO. Interestingly, John Abt, a fellow-traveler, was very close to Sidney Hillman who was strongly anti-communist.
Tape/Side   6/2
Time   19:45
Barkin Almost Went to Paris to Work with Hillman on the International Confederation of Free Trade Unions (ICFTU)
Scope and Content Note: Hillman was to be a vice-president, but wanted Barkin to keep his eye on things full time since he did not fully trust the set-up. Hillman died, however, before convening of ICFTU. Barkin's function here would, like with TWOC, have been open-ended.
Tape/Side   6/2
Time   22:20
Communist Issue At 1948 TWUA Convention
Scope and Content Note: Two Paterson Communists appealed their discipline to the convention. Part of the mood of the times.
Tape/Side   6/2
Time   23:50
Issue of Local Autonomy in TWUA
Scope and Content Note: Raised only by the older locals; newer locals accepted centralized structure as a given, having been born into it, having been organized largely from the top down by International staff. Centralization common in all unions as illustrated by the Retail Clerks Union.
Tape/Side   7/1
Time   00:00
Introduction
Tape/Side   7/1
Time   00:40
Continuation of Discussion of Centralization of Power in Unions Since Beginning of CIO
Scope and Content Note: White collar workers, as an example, show how concentration of power in the International Unions has proceeded apace since World War II simply because of the better service that can be provided by the parent organization. Today cries of local autonomy are seldom heard; cries of dictatorship are more common.
Tape/Side   7/1
Time   03:10
Why TWUA Invested Fast-Accumulating Resources Rather Than Spending Them on Increased Organizing, 1948-1950
Scope and Content Note: Resources doubled in the two years. High level of organizing continued, but increased efforts were not pushed because of recession in the industry in 1949 and also because of Rieve's concern for keeping the Union solvent. Mainly, the building up of reserves was a longtime goal and this period finally presented the opportunity to do so.
Tape/Side   7/1
Time   07:05
TWUA Attempt, Circa 1944, to Enter Joint Program with Employers for Modernization of New Bedford Textile Industry
Scope and Content Note: Barkin met with Seabury Stanton, head of the Employers' Association, and his engineer, and offered to work with employers to modernize the industry in New Bedford so that it could continue to compete with the South. In order to make it acceptable to the workers, it would be done under the guise of improving the safety and health environment of the mills. Last major effort at industrial statesmanship. Could not sell the idea to the employers.
Tape/Side   7/1
Time   11:05
Digression Again into Discussion of the High Caliber of People on TWUA Staff
Scope and Content Note: Engineers, attorneys, publicists, etc. even into the 1940s would often yet be seeking to serve a cause. Hence, at that time unions could attract staff which were a cut above those attracted by industry; such is no longer the case. Names, activities, publications of TWUA Research Department, which were in advance of anything the industry was doing.
Tape/Side   7/1
Time   17:40
Why, by Late 1940s, TWUA Was Consistently Losing NLRB Elections in the Big Plants While Winning Rather Consistently in the Little Plants
Scope and Content Note: Unorganized big plants were largely in the South.
Tape/Side   7/1
Time   18:50
Expansion of TWUA'S Claimed Jurisdiction
Scope and Content Note: In order to survive, to maintain membership totals, Barkin urged TWUA to liberalize the definition of textiles. Sometimes required a considerable stretching of the imagination. One of the first unions to take such jurisdictional liberties. Did not cause many problems with other unions since usually expanded into industries that were not unionized. Was not really a deliberate selection by the National Office, but rather usually initiated at the local level. Often initiated as an effort by a Joint Board to survive or to grow; an attempt to replenish membership lost by mill closings, particularly in New England. Usually the new members were not working in new industries in the closed mills; only in Nashua, N.H., was there much of a concentrated effort to bring new industries into the closed mills.
Tape/Side   7/1
Time   24:25
Withdrawal of American Federation of Hosiery Workers from TWUA
Scope and Content Note: The issue of increased per caps was largely an excuse rather than a cause for the withdrawal.
Tape/Side   7/1
Time   26:00
Dissolution of Dyers Federation
Scope and Content Note: Dyers President Joe Knapik was under a cloud for his operations/relations with employers. Federation was faction-ridden. Key to dissolution lies within the internal politics and factions of the Federation.
Tape/Side   7/2
Time   00:00
Introduction
Tape/Side   7/2
Time   00:30
Rieve-Baldanzi Internal Dispute
Scope and Content Note: Barkin interprets it as having been initiated completely by Baldanzi's personal ambition, fired by his supporters, primarily Sam Baron. Rieve did not take Baldanzi's challenge seriously for some time, was quite cavalier about it. That is one of the reasons it became so serious.
Tape/Side   7/2
Time   04:00
1951 Southern Strike
Scope and Content Note: Would not have been called if there was no internal political fight in the Union. Rieve sanctioned the strike to show that he was a man of action, contrary to what Baldanzi was charging. Strike had no chance of succeeding. If the Wage Stabilization Board had been as effective as the War Labor Board, the strike would not have been a disaster. This strike “was the last great gasp of being a big factor in the South.”
Tape/Side   7/2
Time   08:05
After 1951 Southern Strike, Union Began Seriously to Question Its Strategy in the South
Scope and Content Note: Gave up the grand plan and began to search for piecemeal solutions. Barkin sees the strike more as a watershed than a blunder. The makings for disaster were there all along; the strike merely brought the situation into clear focus.
Tape/Side   7/2
Time   14:45
TWUA Staff, the Internal Dispute, and the Southern Strike
Scope and Content Note: The Education Department staff, which was pro-Baldanzi, were sensitive to the incapacity of the Southern leadership to lead the Union out of the southern morass. They were attracted to Baldanzi's pleas for a more dynamic attack on the South.
Tape/Side   7/2
Time   18:30
More on the Internal Dispute
Scope and Content Note: Barkin believes firmly that Baldanzi was out to get Rieve's job. Barkin was on the periphery of the political machinations of the time; does not claim an insider's view, perspective, or knowledge. Effect of the internal fight: galvanized the frustrations in the Union into personal conflict and thereby frustrated the possibilities of searching for new alternatives. Though Rieve was capable of thinking in more grandiose ways, of seeking new answers, he was incapable of fighting more than one major battle at a time. Hence, at a time when the Union should have been giving hard thought to and applying vast amounts of energy to solving the new, big problems it was beginning to face, energies were being expended instead on the political battle. The Union was stripped of its driving initiative in those years. After the fight, Barkin felt isolated; there seemed to be no one to talk to about new initiatives or grandiose schemes for advancing the Union.
Tape/Side   8/1
Time   00:00
Introduction
Tape/Side   8/1
Time   00:35
Role of the Education Department in the Internal Fight
Scope and Content Note: Involved in shop steward training; in the course of their work, Education staff discovered many young, promising people who they thought could bring more dynamism to the Union than the existing local staff was providing. Hence, Baldanzi had ready recruits amongst the young people on the Education staff when he put together his political organization. They saw in Baldanzi the vehicle for bringing into power the latent leadership they thought they were discovering around the country. These people were fired along with other Baldanzi supporters after the 1952 convention. Paradoxically, Education Department Director Lawrence Rogin was the most loyal person to Rieve.
Tape/Side   8/1
Time   05:05
Research Department Position in the Internal Fight
Scope and Content Note: Barkin told his staff that anyone who got involved in the internal dispute, who openly chose a side in the fight, would be fired immediately. Barkin's posture was one of open neutrality, even though he knew Baldanzi would fire him if Baldanzi won the fight. In midst of it all, Barkin maintained very good relationship with Charles Serraino and Sam Baron; they did, however, avoid discussion of internal union politics.
Tape/Side   8/1
Time   06:45
The Firing of Sam Baron
Tape/Side   8/1
Time   07:30
More on Barkin's Neutrality
Scope and Content Note: Maintained his neutrality while Isadore Katz chose one side and Rogin openly lined up on the other side.
Tape/Side   8/1
Time   08:45
TWUA and Barkin, 1951-1956
Scope and Content Note: Barkin and Research Department largely ran the Union after 1951 because Rieve was so sidetracked by the internal fight and the secession movement. Barkin was trying to find answers to questions Rieve was not even asking.
Tape/Side   8/1
Time   11:50
Pollock Brought Nothing Fresh to the Union
Scope and Content Note: The Union sank to a routine.
Tape/Side   8/1
Time   12:45
1950s “Bargaining From Weakness”
Tape/Side   8/1
Time   15:20
Barkin's Changing Role in 1950s
Scope and Content Note: Area redevelopment schemes, import problems, training of staff and changing techniques - a search for solutions to the economic problems of the industry and a search for solutions to the problem of a shrinking Union. Did not feel encouragement for such activities when Pollock became president.
Tape/Side   8/1
Time   18:30
Rieve Burned Out by Early 1950s But No One Really Available to Take Over with a Constructive, Fresh Approach
Scope and Content Note: Barkin thinks Sam Baron and Carl Holderman (who was no longer with the Union) were competent potentials, but the Executive Council really did not have anyone with good leadership potential. Mariano Bishop was merely “a good political leg man.” Because Executive Council members “were all dead people from the word go,” Rieve had always to depend very much on his staff and gave them free rein.
Tape/Side   8/1
Time   23:20
Rieve Never Very Interested in Organizing
Scope and Content Note: This is the one great charge that Baldanzi made that was true.
Tape/Side   8/1
Time   24:10
Barkin's Self-Analysis
Scope and Content Note: Never conceived of himself as one to break down doors; if one door was closed, he would go on to the next one. During 1950s, he was withdrawing into non-routine work, leaving the routine work of the Research Department to other staff.
Tape/Side   8/1
Time   26:20
TWUA in the 1950s: a Convergence of Bad Circumstances at a Time of Leadership Vacuum
Scope and Content Note: Leadership not prepared to take on new challenges, attempt new approaches. Barkin's Textile Labor Board, as an example, could find no audience within the Union.