United Packinghouse Workers of America Oral History Project Interviews, 1985-1986
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The Interviews

A clear majority of the interviews were with unionists who spent their working careers inside a packinghouse. While project interviewers did not adhere to a standard set of questions, they did pursue a number of general areas of inquiry in each interview session.

After soliciting some preliminary information, most of the interviews quickly move to a discussion of the subject's work career. Recollections about securing employment in meat packing generally are followed by information about working conditions in the plant before and after the establishment of the union. Most interviewees offered some commentary about company unionism, as almost all of them either had direct contact with such organizations or were influenced by hearsay. and rumor about them. Subjects were queried about their knowledge of unionism prior to employment in packing, and their awareness of the emergence of the CIO in the mid-1930's. Moreover, many of the interviews contain brief but insightful comments about the meaning of the CIO to industrial workers. Interviewers routinely asked about the subject's first contact with the local union, and attempted to coax out as much detail as possible about these initial encounters.

The bulk of each interview centers around the subject's experiences during the UPWA era. Information about the local union's organization inside the plant, especially the structure of the steward system and its functioning on the shop floor, can be found in most interviews. Similarly, recollections about job actions--slowdowns, stoppages, and more informal activities--run through the entire body of interviews. Testimony about contacts with other packinghouse locals, chain meetings and negotiations, and union conferences was solicited from each respondent. Since the UPWA operated in a highly charged political atmosphere, almost all interviews touch upon attitudes about the union's left-wing and about the internal political battles of which rank-and-file members could not help but be aware. The Packinghouse Workers' 1946 and 1948 strikes were national ones, and practically all interviews contain extended discussion about these conflicts, especially the latter one.

Each subject was asked about his or her views concerning the rival Amalgamated Meat Cutters and Butcher Workmen. Sometimes, these comments emerged at an early point in the interview, especially when the subject had some kind of contact with the AMC prior to the emergence of the PWOC. In many interviews, questions about the UPWA's 1968 merger with the Amalgamated provided the springboard for a discussion of the Meat Cutters organization and strikingly different style of unionism.

Most of the production workers interviewed (as opposed to union officials) retired involuntarily when their plants closed. This event often was a traumatic one for those involved, as union efforts to ease the burden of job displacement generally were ineffectual. All subjects were asked about plant closings, and many seized this as an opportunity to discuss the limitations and shortcomings of militant industrial unionism. This leads naturally into a standard set of evaluative questions which close each interview. Asked about their contributions and non-material gains realized through union activity, these closing remarks range from rather mundane, matter of fact statements to exceptional flashes of insight and philosophy.

Summary Chart of Interviews and Themes

The chart below comprises a complete list of the interviewees. They are classified by their primary urban area of residence and the packinghouse where they spent most of their working career. A few non-packinghouse workers who were interviewed because of other factors are listed as “other” under their place of residence. Union staff members who were not packinghouse workers are designated “union staff.” A “miscellaneous” category includes five interviewees who did not fit into the chart for various reasons. A list of interviewees in tape number order is at the end of this document.

To aid the researcher, there are several designations on the chart to provide information at a glance on each interviewee. These are:

  • * -- union founder
  • B -- black
  • W -- white
  • M -- Mexican
  • AD -- anti-discrimination
  • WA -- women's activities
  • IP -- internal politics
  • SF -- shop floor dynamics
  • TN -- tape number

The first group of designations appear immediately adjacent to the name of the interviewee. The second group of four are arranged in columns after the names. An “x” in the column indicates that the interview contains worthwhile material on that subject. The last column indicates the tape numbers of the particular interview. At the end of the chart there is a discussion of the information available in each subject category. The sex of each interviewee can be deduced from their first name.

AD WA IP SF TN
AUSTIN
Hormel
Winkels, John (W)* x 36-37
Winkels, Casper (W)* x 38-39
Halligan, Lyman (W)* x x 43-44
Casey, Marie (W)* x 45-46
MacAnally, James (W) x 40-41
Sissel, Rollo (W) x 42
Losey, Paul (W) x 97-99
Shatek, Richard (W) x 97-99
Taylor, Dave (W) x 97-99
Johnson, Bob (W) x 97-99
Godfredsen, Svend (W)* x x x x 143-150
Other
Rasmussen, Paul (W) x 281-283
CEDAR RAPIDS
Wilson
Lange, Ray (W) 104-107
Townsend, Louise (W) 110-112
Hammond, Jeanette (W) 110-112
Fields, Magnolia(B) x x 118-119
Zarudsky, Helen (W) 108-109
Carr, Earl (B) x 113-115
Rowena, Lester (W) 104-107
Hlavacek, Frank (W) x 104-107
Tickal, Louis (W)* x 104-107
Blumenshine, Don (W)* x 102-103
Melsha, Stella (W)* 100-101
Melsha, Jack (W)* 100-101
Fetter, Tony (W) x x x x 120-122
Achenbach, Lloyd (W)* x 116-117
Other
Gibson, Viola(B) x 141-142
CHICAGO
Armour
March, Herbert (W)* x x 1-2;293-298
Norman, Milton (B) x x 19-22
Samuel, James (B) 19-22
Tate, Todd (B) x x x 11-12;19-22;23-25
Saunders, Richard (B)* x x x 11-12;19-22
Swift
Starr, Vicky (W)* x x x 234-236
Weightman, Philip(B)* x x x 284-292
Wilson
Hayes, Charles (B) x x x 151-153
Collins, Annie J. (B) 11-12
Parks, Sam (B) x x x 30-31
Independent Plants
Wyatt, Addie (B) x x x 54-56
Taylor, Rosalie (B) 15-16
Allen, Ercell (B) 15-16
Vaughn, Jesse (B)* x x 32-33;299-300
Pierce, Eunetta (B) x x x 13-14
CUDAHY, WI
Patrick Cudahy
Nielsen, Harold (W) x x 3-5
Tarnowski, Leona (W) x 34
Thoenes, Ervin (W)* x 6;35
Becker, Joe (W)* x 6
EAST ST. LOUIS
Armour
Davenroy, William (W)* x 214-216
Madakitis, John (W)* x x 220-223
Condellone, John (W)* x x 220-223
Nash, William (B) x 209-211
Miller, Curtis (B) 219
Peoples, Clyde (B) x 217-218
Swift
Randall, Blackie (W) 212-213
FORT WORTH
Armour
Wallace, Frank (B)* x x x 75-78
Niedholdt, Kenneth (W) x 94-96;191
Salinas, Mary (M) x x x x 85-88
Jones, Hattie (W) 89-90
Williams, L.C. (B) x 82-84
Humphrey, Eddie(B) x x 79-81
Stockyards
McCafferty, Charles B. (W) x x 91-93
KANSAS CITY
Armour
Block, Finis (B)* x x 247-249
Fischer, Charles R. (W)* x x 263-266
Krasick, Thomas (W)* 275-277
Isom, Nevada (B) x 261-262
Houston, Virginia (B) x x 278-280
Wilson
Bailey, Walter (B)* x 273-274
Raspberry, William (B) x x 250-253
Cudahy
Simmons, Marian (B) x x x x 254-260
Other
Krasick, Ann (W) 275-277
OMAHA
Armour
Romano, Fred (W)* x 185-186
Peterson, Nels (W)* x 162-163
Watson, Betty (W) x 166-168
Dappen, Emerson (W) x 157-159
Moore, Rowena (B) x x x 175-178
Swift
Myers, Vic (W) x x 154-156
Graham, Max (W) x x x x 182-184
Early, Homer (B)* x 160-161
Harris, James C. (B)* x x x 172-174
Fletemeyer, George (W)* x x x 187-190
Cassano, Herb (W)* x 169-171
Cudahy
Salters, Steve (W) 164-165
Poe, Darryl (W)* x x 179-181
Mason, Walt (W)* x x 179-181
Dappen, Jeannette (W) 157-159
Other
Fletemeyer, Francis (W) 187-190
ST. JOSEPH
Armour
Chambers, Clyde (W)* 239-241
Thompson, Buford (B) x x 271-272
Crowley, Eugene (B) x x x 242-244
Carter, Marjorie (B) x x x 242-244
Webster, William (B) x 245-246
SOUTH ST. PAUL
Cudahy
Giannini, Henry (W)* x x 57-59;67-70
Swift
Nolan, William (W)* x x 57-59;60-63
Armour
Wicke, Chris (W)* 57-59;71-72
Cooper, Jake (W) 73-74
Winters, Don (W) 57-59
Other
DeBoer, Harry (W) 59
Hall, Douglas (W) x 64-66
SIOUX CITY
Cudahy
Shuck, Jenny (W)* x x 207-208
Nolan, Bruce (W)* x x 204-206
Holbrook, Grant (W)* x x 204-206
Armour
Wensel, Clyde (W)* x 194-196
Edwards, Alvin (W)* 199-200
Edwards, Mary (W)* x 199-200
Davis, Sam (B) x 201-203
Swift
Hilsinger, James (W)* 192-193
Callender, Loren (W) 197-198
WATERLOO
Rath
Lamb, Goldie (W) 140
Bremmer, Lucille (W) x x x 123-125
Jones, Viola (W) x 127-128
Porter, James (B) x 135-136
Pearson, Charles (B) x x x 224-227
Dietz, Everett (W) 126
Dietz, Vernon (W)* 126
Taylor, Lyle (W) x x x 133-134
Mueller, Charles (W) x x x x 139;232-233
Treadwell, Ada (B) x x x 228-229
Weems, Anna Mae (B) x x x 137-138
Schrader, Velma Otterman (W)* x x 131-132
Burt, Robert (B)* x x 129-130;230-231
Union Staff
Alston, Harry (B) x 51-53
Cotton, Eugene (W) 28-29
Dolnick, Norman (W) x 26-27
Fischer, Charles (W) x 49-50
Miscellaneous
Hill, Herbert (W) x x 8-10
Lefkowitz, Hy (W) x 237-238
Pittman, A. J. (W)* x 267-270
Schultz, Robert (W)* 7;17-18
Prosten, Jesse (W)* x x 47-48

a. Theme: Anti-discrimination

Among the richest areas explored in the oral history interviews are those pertaining to race relations in the packing industry in general and the civil rights activities of the UPWA in particular. All interviewees, both black and white, were asked about racial discrimination in hiring, job placement, and promotion before and after the establishment of the union. Likewise, segregation inside the plants and in the larger community forms an important concern in the interviews. The building of interracial solidarity during the PWOC era is explored in considerable detail in many of the oral histories, as is the early anti-discrimination efforts of the union. The changing racial composition of the packinghouse workforce during World War II and afterwards is an important topic which receives much attention.

Anti-discrimination activity varied greatly by both geographic locale and by local union. Information about “A-D” activity initiated by local unions in the plant and in the community was solicited wherever possible. Similarly, the implementation of the international union's civil rights program, especially in the period following the 1948 strike, formed a key area of inquiry in interviews with both union officials and local level activists. The UPWA sought to cultivate ties with other civil rights groups throughout its existence. Interviewees often offered valuable recollections about their union's relationship with local NAACP branches and chapters of the Urban League. Since aggressive civil rights activities often clashed with the sensibilities of white unionists, interviewers sought information on the opinion of the union's “A-D” program held by white workers. Especially interesting are the dramatic divergences between black and white views of the same phenomenon.

b. Theme: Women's Issues

The experience of female packinghouse workers differed in many significant ways from that of males. Information about women's issues and concerns was consciously sought at every opportunity. Women tended to be concentrated in certain departments in the plant, and almost all of the interviews with women include descriptions of women's work itself. In general, women played only a minor role in the initial organization of PWOC locals. Often (but not always) traditionally female departments such as sausage and sliced bacon formed major obstacles to organization. However, several of the oral history interviews are with atypical female packinghouse workers who were early supporters of union organizing drives, and who later emerged as leaders of the women in their plant. These interviews in particular explore the dynamics of female participation in the union.

Several interviews contain superb information on the specific problems facing women workers--sexual harassment, wage differentials, inequities involved in piecework, etc. Likewise, several interviews contain accounts about the organization of women's activities committees in the 1950's, as well as testimony about the other ways in which women organized to forward demands inside the union apparatus. The number of women employed in meat packing increased over time, as did the proportionate number of black women in the industry. This trend began with World War II, and many interviewees comment on it. The project interviewed several black women who broke the color line in previously all-white departments. A major topic in almost all of the female interviews and in a good number of those with male stewards and local leaders is the impact of mechanization on women workers in the late 1950's and early 1960's. Women bore the burden of job displacement due to new technology, and in most local unions this led to protracted and bitter conflicts over the seniority system. Several interviews contain detailed accounts about the struggle over plant vs. departmental seniority and over the related conflict which surrounded the merging of male and female seniority lists.

c. Theme: Internal Politics

One of the distinguishing features of the UPWA was its internal political diversity and democracy. The interviewees range widely in political outlook, from Communists on the left to strong conservatives on the right. There is a great deal of information on the role of the leftists in the union, primarily Communists but also Socialists, Trotskyists, and IWW members. The interviews are particularly informative on the contribution of the left to the initial formation of packinghouse local unions. The opinions of conservative interviewees on Communists and other leftists are especially important, as the vast majority of them do not exhibit the kind of anti-Communism which took hold in other CIO unions. A number of key actors on opposite sides of the factional struggles of 1948 and 1954 were interviewed and provided invaluable personal recollections on their motives as well as sober reflections on their strategy and objectives. The interviewees also discuss the particular influence of UPWA president Ralph Helstein on the liberal atmosphere which prevailed inside the union.

d. Theme: Shop Floor Dynamics

Virtually every packinghouse worker interviewee discusses his or her particular job and how it changed over time. The description of the work process ranges from accounts of the transition from pre-union to union conditions in the 1930's and 1940's to the changes caused by new technology in the 1950's and 1960's. In the better descriptions of shop floor dynamics, the interviewees discuss the relationship in their departments between the work gang, the stewards, and the supervisory personnel. Often these include extensive and precise descriptions of job actions, ranging from an informal slowdown to a carefully planned stoppage. A few interviewees also describe the union apparatus inside the plant, its internal lines of communication, relationship between departmental stewards and the local union officers, and plant-wide job actions. The interviewers took care to solicit the opinions of packinghouse workers on the role they saw the union organization playing inside the plant, especially its importance in securing initial support for the union.

HOW TO USE THE TAPE ABSTRACTS

The tapes for these interviews have two tracks: a voice track containing the discussion and a time track containing time announcements at intervals of approximately five seconds. The abstracts list, in order of discussion, the topics covered on each tape, and indicate the time-marking at which point the beginning of the particular discussion appears. For example, the second page of the abstracts lists the topics discussed during the first fourteen minutes or so of tape one, side one (see copy of page two of abstracts). The numbers (time-markings) on the left margin indicate the point on the second track of each tape where discussion of the distinct topic listed in capital letters begins.

Thus, the researcher, by using a tape recorder's fast-forward button, may find expeditiously and listen to discreet segments without listening to all of the taped discussion. For instance, the user who wishes to listen to the discussion on the topic “ORIGINS OF PWIU” should locate the place on the second track of tape one, side one where the voice announces the 08:40 time-marking (the voice says at this point, “eight minutes, forty seconds”), and at this point switch to the first track to hear the discussion. The discussion on “ORIGINS OF PWIU” continues until approximately 12:40 at which point discussion of the next topic (“IMPACT OF NRA ON UNION ORGANIZING”) begins.

Notice that in most cases sentences beneath each headline explain more about the contents of the topic. For example, the sentences underneath “ORIGINS OF PWIU” give further details on what appears on the tape between 08:40 and 12:40.

The abstract is designed to provide only a brief outline of the content of the tapes and cannot serve as a substitute for listening to them. However, the abstract will help the researcher easily locate distinct topics and discussions among the many minutes of commentary.