Title: Mark A. Stoler Oral History Interview
Inclusive Dates: 1974, 1976

Creator:

• Stoler, Mark A.

Call Number: Tape 984A; SC 637

Quantity: 0.1 c.f. (1 folder) and 1 tape recording

Repository:

Wisconsin Historical Society, Division of Library, Archives, and Museum Collections

Archival Locations:

Wisconsin Historical Society (Map)

COLLECTION MAY BE STORED OFF-SITE: see catalog entry to request materials and for additional information.

Abstract:

Interview conducted June 11, 1974, by Dale Treleven of the State Historical Society staff with Mark Stoler who, while a University of Wisconsin graduate student, helped found “Up Against the Wall,” Madison's first serious attempt to present alternative radio music progamming. Also present are related clippings from the Capital Times and Spread the WORT newsletter, 1976.

Language: English

URL to cite for this finding aid: http://digital.library.wisc.edu/1711.dl/wiarchives.uw-whs-tape00984a

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Mark A. Stoler, born in New York City in 1945, received his Ph.D. in history at the University of Wisconsin-Madison in 1971. While a graduate student in 1968, he and others highly critical of the musical selections played over Madison's and southern Wisconsin's commercial radio stations began to explore the possibility of launching a program that offered a wide variety of folk, blues, and jazz. Initially supported by volunteers, a few small businesses and, later, at least one retail record sales establishment, the small band of dissenters made arrangements with WMFM owner and general manager Earl W. Fessler to rent late-evening and early-morning time at his station located on Madison's east side. Sometime in late 1968, the group of highly amateur programmers and one of Fessler's engineers, whose services were included as part of the hourly rental fee, launched WMFM-”Up Against the Wall” radio. Named after the “Battle Cry of '68” and modeled after programs in other cities with which the volunteers were familiar, “Up Against the Wall” was Madison's and Wisconsin's first serious and sustained attempt to present “alternative” radio. As such, “Up Against the Wall” introduced thousands of listeners to scores of folk, blues, and progressive jazz artists whose talents were seldom, if ever, carried over radio stations in the Middle West.

While the life of “Up Against the Wall” radio was relatively short, it breathed new life into Wisconsin's airwaves. By the mid-1970's in Madison alone, commercial radio stations no longer could ignore the sounds of “alternative” programming. WIBA, for instance, began “Radio Free Madison.” WORT-FM (“Back Porch Radio”) began broadcasting later in the 1970's as another largely-volunteer, publicly-supported radio station located, ironically, in the same building that “Up Against the Wall” had rented in 1968 from Earl Fessler.

The Interview

Just two months after the State Historical Society began a formal oral history program, I [interviewer Dale Treleven] learned from a friend that Mark Stoler was in Madison for a short time. I contacted Stoler and he agreed to be interviewed in the oral history office located on the fourth floor of the Society building. The interview, conducted on June 11, 1974 was the first done for the Society's expanded oral history program.

At the time, I intended to hold a series of interviews with individuals who had been involved with the beginning of Madison's “alternative” radio stations. The plan was not feasible because many of those involved, like Stoler, had moved from Madison. When other tasks grew pressing, I dropped the idea completely. This was in retrospect very regrettable because the “alternative” radio programming which emerged in the 1960's and 1970's was not only a unique phenomenon but part of a larger movement characterized by growing restiveness and resistance to the involvement of the United States government in Viet Nam.

Abstract to the Interview

The tapes for this interview have two tracks: a voice track containing the discussion, and a time track containing time announcements at intervals of approximately five seconds. The abstract below lists, in order of discussion, the topics covered on each tape and indicates the time-marking at which point the beginning of the particular discussion appears.

Thus, the researcher, by using a tape recorder's fast-forward button, may find expeditiously and listen to discrete segments without listening to all of the taped discussion. For instance, the user who wishes to listen to the topic on “Fessler's Contact With 'Up Against the Wall'” should locate the place on the second track of tape one, side one, where the voice announces the 04:20 time-marking (the voice says at this point, “four minutes, twenty seconds”), and at this point switch to the first track to hear the discussion. The discussion on “Fessler's Contact With 'Up Against the Wall'” continues until approximately 04:45, at which point discussion of the next topic (“How 'Up Against the Wall' Was Named”) begins.

Notice that in most cases, sentences beneath each headline explain more about the contents of the topic. For example, the sentences beneath “Fessler Contact With 'Up Against the Wall'” give further details on what appears on the tape between 04:20 and 04:45.

The abstract is designed to provide only a brief outline of the content of the tapes and cannot serve as a substitute for listening to them. However, the abstract when used with the index will help the researcher to locate easily distinct topics and discussion among the many minutes of commentary.

Other Materials

“Underground by Stealth,” by Bob La Brasca in Spread the WORT, [1976], is also part of this collection; filed at call number SC 637.

Processing Information

Finding aid prepared by Dale E. Treleven, November 30, 1976.

Tape/Side   1/1 Time   00:15	Background of Mark Stoler Scope and Content Note: Born in New York City in 1945 where he resided until 1966; came to Madison in 1966 to do graduate work in history at University of Wisconsin; left Madison in the fall of 1969 for a nine-month research trip; returned in May 1970 and stayed until August of that year. Received Ph.D. in June 1971; began teaching the following fall at the University of Vermont.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   01:25	How Stoler Became Involved With “Up Against the Wall” Radio Scope and Content Note: In late 1968 or early 1969 informal meeting held at Joe Jackson's to discuss possibility of a radio station to play something other than the “garbage” then being played on Wisconsin radio. Many people who attended meeting interested in Folk Music, “Blues,” and Jazz.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   02:45	WHA Radio, University of Wisconsin Radio Station, Refuses to Give Students Air Time Scope and Content Note: “It seemed to fit in with the political analysis of the University going on around the time” that students were not permitted to use the University station, even on rental basis.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   03:30	WMFM Agrees to Rent Time to “Up Against the Wall” Scope and Content Note: Earl Fessler, owner and general manager of WMFM, agreed to rent time during late night hours to “Up Against the Wall.” Price set at about $22.00 which included an engineer. Fessler aware of type of music “Up Against the Wall” would be playing.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   04:20	Fessler's Contact with “Up Against the Wall” Scope and Content Note: While Stoler associated with “Up Against the Wall,” Fessler would sometimes listen to make sure announcers observed FCC regulations regarding identification every thirty minutes, within two minutes of the hour and half hour; profanity on the air waves; etc.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   04:45	How “Up Against the Wall” Radio Was Named Scope and Content Note: Derived from the “battle cry of '68” which was, “Up Against the Wall, Motherfucker”; program became “Up Against the wall FM.”
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   05:30	Who Financed “Up Against the Wall” Scope and Content Note: “Up Against the Wall” initially supported from donations raised by giving concerts, dances, and picnics, and issuing one dollar subscriptions to students.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   06:35	Conflict over Format Scope and Content Note: Conflict not only regarding musical content, but political content as well. Organization open to question; in first few weeks program was aired on a day-by-day basis.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   07:05	First Split within the Group Scope and Content Note: About the time of the Mifflin Street Riot, which WMFM - “Up Against the Wall” covered, there was disagreement over how organized programming should be; resulted in several people leaving. Thereafter “Up Against the Wall” settled down to a regular schedule, broadcasting a couple nights a week, from 10:00 p.m. to 3:00 a.m.; included some coverage of important news events.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   08:45	Audience Scope and Content Note: Aimed for the University community, workers as well as students, in the Greater Madison area. Felt there existed a musical counterculture. Many shows broadcast from Mifflin Street Coop.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   10:00	What WMFM Perceived Its Role to Be Scope and Content Note: Because a wide variety of music was included, WMFM sought to interest audience in several kinds of music. Although early organization chaotic, programming evolved into two nights of jazz, one night of blues, one of folk and rock.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   11:45	Composition of Programmers Scope and Content Note: Basically the same group who organized “Up Against the Wall.” They included Joe Jackson, Jan Rothbard, Mark Rohrer, Mark Stoler, Barry Chiad, and other people who left. Joe Jackson did not run an entire show; served as “master of ceremonies,” opened his shop for meetings, and supplied his address for mail.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   13:15	Similar Radio Stations around the Country Scope and Content Note: Programmer's model depended on where in the United States they came from. Stoler's models were WBAI in New York, and WNEW in its early days. WBAI never settled problem of whether it was a talk show or a music show. WNEW almost straight music.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   14:00	WMFM'S Political Content Scope and Content Note: Although generally went along lines of a straight music program, comments would be made at times about the Vietnam War. Sometimes a political show with music would be created; words of a song got message across. A belief that music in and of itself was revolutionary.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   15:10	Financial Sustenance Scope and Content Note: WMFM wanted to expand programming but couldn't do so with contributions alone. Corporation advertising opposed. Compromise made to solicit advertising from “the right kinds of places,” such as “head shops,” sandal shops, counterculture stores.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   16:40	Advertising Format Scope and Content Note: By consensus, programmers decided from whom they would solicit advertising. Announcers wrote the advertisements and read them live although format changed in August 1969.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   17:20	Conflict over Advertising Scope and Content Note: By August 1969, WMFM taking ads for “regular” stores, which resulted in big split among programmers.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   19:05	WMFM Audience Scope and Content Note: Personal contacts only revealed to Stoler who listened to show. However, not much learned this way; since people did not identify themselves fully over the air. The Daily Cardinal also wrote up some reviews of the show.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   20:10	WMFM As the First “Progressive” Radio Station in Madison Scope and Content Note: WMFM the first radio station in Madison to play what was being played on New York and Chicago FM rock stations.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   20:25	Composition of Programming Scope and Content Note: Stoler played “everything under creation.” Blues included Reverend Gary Davis, Albert King, B. B. King, Luther Allison, Muddy Waters, Howlin' Wolf, etc. Folk music included Pete Seeger, Bob Dylan, Phil Ochs, Tom Paxton, Eric Anderson. Rock music included Eric Clapton, Crosby, Stills and Nash, and others. First in Madison to play Chicago Transit Authority. No station in Madison up to that time played such music.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   22:15	Where the Record Collection Came From Scope and Content Note: Private collections used at first; later, arrangement worked out with Discount Records (record store) to let WMFM use any albums in exchange for free advertising. Records used for evening program and then returned. As station became more established, record companies sent disks.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   23:05	More on Rock Groups Played on WMFM Scope and Content Note: “The biggest of all, the Jefferson Airplane,” as well as a lot of Grateful Dead, and Rolling Stones. Not the AM cuts.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   23:30	Pressure to Play Particular Albums Scope and Content Note: No payola-type pressure; announcers listened to albums at home and decided whether or not to play.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   24:20	Advance Censorship of Record Cuts Scope and Content Note: If possibly objectionable record received, warnings on wrapper indicated which cuts were “not for air play.” If albums came from personal collection, announcers used own judgment, sometimes “sneaking something through.”
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   25:10	Compliance with FCC Regulations Scope and Content Note: No complaints from the FCC, although sometimes difficult to recite identification at 2:00 a.m.: “This is Up Against the Wall, FM, WMFM 104....”
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   25:35	Criticism from Fessler Scope and Content Note: Fessler listened between 10 p.m. and midnight, would call and ask engineer to tape an entire show, if he didn't like something about the show.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   26:35	Political Views of Announcers Scope and Content Note: “A fairly diverse group.” Within the sphere of radical politics, everybody had their own interests, “with good doses of just craziness and anarchy thrown in.”
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   26:50	Black Announcers Scope and Content Note: At first Joe Jackson the only black member; later two others.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   27:15	How Announcers Reimbursed Scope and Content Note: Announcers first worked at WMFM for enjoyment only; later changed.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   28:00	What Announcers Think People Are Doing While Listening to WMFM Scope and Content Note: Portions of show meant to jolt listeners out of what they were doing; attempts made to program based on what announcers thought they were doing. Stoler assumed, for instance, that on Friday nights at 11:00 p.m. people were getting stoned, so they'd play “soaring” music; at midnight they'd mellow it out with Blues. About 1 a.m., they'd play some “sex” music, and an hour later “crashing” music. Eventually realized they were creating a mythical person listening to the show, doing what they, the announcers, would rather have been doing. A general rule was not to play loud, screeching music at 3:00 a.m.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   30:25	How Sets Put Together Scope and Content Note: Set is a group of songs running for about 20 minutes with no commercial break. Sets put together in various ways, either chronologically, by subject matter, or of same artist showing his progression on the same theme. Set should make some sort of musical sense.
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   31:50	Freedom of Individual Announcers Scope and Content Note: Freedom in content and length of sets but announcers required to break every 30 minutes for identification; later, had to include minimum number of advertisements per hour. Announcers somewhat comparable to historiographers in that they assemble other people's works.
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   33:20	Special Holidays Influence Format of “Up Against the Wall” Scope and Content Note: Stoler played political protest music on Memorial Day and Independence Day. Frequently announcers responded to current events and played appropriate music, in order to establish a bond with the listener.
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   35:00	Influence of “Up Against the Wall” on the Founding of Radio Free Madison (WIBA-FM) Scope and Content Note: “Up Against the Wall” perhaps served as a model of counterculture radio for Radio Free Madison; however Radio Free Madison much “slicker” with soft-voiced announcers.
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   36:45	Relationship Between Counterculture Music and the Development of Counterculture Radio Scope and Content Note: Movement expressed in the music; playing the music a political act.
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   37:50	Mark Stoler's Comments on Announcing Scope and Content Note: “A tremendous kick at first.” Later, enthusiasm waned because he was unable to get feedback.
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   38:55	Who Mark Stoler Considers the Most Influential People in the Development of Rock Music Scope and Content Note: “You've gotta start with Black Blues”: Chicago, Muddy Waters, Lightnin' Hopkins, etc. In White music, where Whites began playing Black music and adding their own brand of Country and Western, important contributors were Bill Haley and Elvis. That form died out in the 1950's, and British groups such as the Beatles and the Rolling Stones brought it back. The important change in lyrics and style was with Dylan, who influenced important groups such as the Beatles and the Rolling Stones.
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   40:35	What “Up Against the Wall” Accomplished Scope and Content Note: In retrospect, “not that much,” but was fun at the time. Although the music was revolutionary and did come across, what was forgotten was the “co-optation mechanism” which tamed the music. In the sixties there was an “incredible outburst of new forms both lyrically and musically.” Music no longer speaks to a group, and has become a “thing to do at cocktail parties.” “I'm reminded of the last line in Easy Rider and the last line in the Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test: 'We blew it, we blew it, we blew it.'”