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Tape/Side
1/1
Time
00:00
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INTERVIEWER'S INTRODUCTION
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Tape/Side
1/1
Time
00:30
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BACKGROUND
: Born near farming community of Two Creeks in Manitowoc County on May 14, 1900, one of fourteen children. Father a commercial fisherman with forty-acre farm on shores of Lake Michigan. Children when old enough helped to operate farm. Wilbur Le Clair, the fifth from the youngest, attended one-room school with nine grades. Enrolled in Two Rivers high school after delaying for three years during World War I. Graduated from high school in 1921 at age 21, one year ahead of David Sigman. [See David Sigman interview conducted for the Wisconsin Labor Oral History Project in 1981 and 1982.]
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Tape/Side
1/1
Time
05:40
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ROUTINE ON FARM
: Le Clair fished with father for one year but rest of time took care of three cows and a large garden.
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Tape/Side
1/1
Time
06:10
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TAKES JOB ON CHRISTOPHER COLUMBUS, LAKE MICHIGAN STEAMER
: Passed coal with hard-working and hard-drinking crew on boat that ran from Decoration Day to Labor Day. Got job as oiler, then as water-tender during second and third seasons.
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Tape/Side
1/1
Time
08:10
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RETURNS TO SCHOOL AFTER FIRST SEASON ON CHRISTOPHER COLUMBUS
: Encouraged by mother, attended Marquette University Dental School, for three years. In retrospect Le Clair feels he should have pursued law but disappointed father denied further educational support.
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Tape/Side
1/1
Time
09:30
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EMPLOYMENT AFTER LEAVING MARQUETTE UNIVERSITY
: Drove sand and gravel truck before taking job at A.O. Smith Company in 1928, where he remained until his retirement, except for period of layoff from 1929-1933. Called back to work in 1933 when end of prohibition increased demand for Smith-manufactured beer barrels.
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Tape/Side
1/1
Time
10:45
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BEGINS TO WORK AT A.O. SMITH (AOS) IN 1928
: Difficult, but Le Clair had friend who worked at A.O. Smith who tipped him off and put in good word for him with management. Le Clair took job as apprentice welder.
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Tape/Side
1/1
Time
11:35
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WORK WHILE ATTENDING MARQUETTE UNIVERSITY
: “Busted dishes” at Ardmore Hotel for his meals.
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Tape/Side
1/1
Time
12:40
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WORK DURING LAYOFF 1929-1933
: Picked up job as helper at Standard Oil station at 35th and Burleigh before operating his own station at 4th and Center in Milwaukee. After two and one-half years, delivered pastries for Wehle Brothers Baking Co.
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Tape/Side
1/1
Time
15:15
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CONTACT WITH ORGANIZED LABOR UP TO 1933
: No contact or knowledge in area of state where born and raised.
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Tape/Side
1/1
Time
15:45
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WORKING CONDITIONS AT A.O. SMITH
: Worked at A.O. Smith a short time before realizing why labor organization was necessary. Smith had divisions and departments, with each department head foreman, as well as subservient night-shift foreman, having much autonomy in hiring and firing at random. Company concerned with maintaining profitable departments. Recalls how many farmers who worked at AOS brought eggs and chickens to curry favor of foremen. Le Clair felt anyone randomly discharged should have right to be heard, and that organization was only solution.
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Tape/Side
1/1
Time
17:55
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EFFORTS TO ORGANIZE AOS BY TRADE UNION UNITY LEAGUE (TUUL) BEFORE ENACTMENT OF NATIONAL INDUSTRIAL RECOVERY ACT (NIRA) IN 1933
: Unsuccessful attempt made by “group of outsiders.”
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Tape/Side
1/1
Time
18:55
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STEERING COMMITTEE FORWARD BY AOS WORKERS BEFORE PASSAGE OF NIRA
: Met in back room of tavern on 3rd Street to discuss how to organize a successful union. Company strongly against unions and warned that any discussions of organizing during working hours would result in discharge. Worker steering committee asked for meeting with management to air grievances over foreman structure, but they refused. After President Roosevelt's proclamation began to aid union organizing, sufficient number of signatures all that was needed to force management to talk with seven-member steering committee (Le Clair not a member), with Felix Reisdorf the main spokesman. No contract, but company offered statement of policy stating that workers could meet with personnel staff and that, if possible, company would hire and recall according to seniority. Statement of policy in effect for three years before first contract negotiated.
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Tape/Side
1/1
Time
23:05
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PERSONNEL DIRECTOR LAWRENCE PARRISH
: Parrish stated years later that AOS management was very opposed to any union telling it how to run the plant, but once union in place company forced to treat it like an illegitimate child: “nobody wanted it but after you had it, we learned to love it.”
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Tape/Side
1/1
Time
23:50
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WELDERS MOST SUPPORTIVE OF UNION ORGANIZING
: Welders in all divisions and departments most aggressive supporters; in a position to press hardest without fear of losing jobs immediately. Reisdorf, however, not a welder. Handymen also a potent force. Recalls how union used to be called the “welders union” after Federal Labor Union (FLU) 19806 organized. AOS not an all-union shop until 1951, by which time both office and factory workers had grown interested in union because of increasing wage differentials in the work force.
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Tape/Side
1/1
Time
28:30
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MACHINISTS AT AOS
: One of few groups, along with steamfitters and electricians, organized before 1933. None had strong contracts.
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Tape/Side
1/1
Time
29:05
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ASSISTANCE FROM AMERICAN FEDERATION OF LABOR (AFL)
: Received charter from AFL in March 1934. Steering committee had met previously with delegation from Milwaukee Federated Trades Council (FTC).
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Tape/Side
1/1
Time
29:45
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END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1
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Tape/Side
1/2
Time
00:00
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INTERVIEWER'S INTRODUCTION
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Tape/Side
1/2
Time
00:30
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MORE ON ASSISTANCE FROM AFL
: Steering committee met with Jake Friedrick and Herman Seide of FTC to discuss problems at plant. FTC assigned Otto Jirikowic to work with committee, talk with AOS management, and get organization drive underway.
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Tape/Side
1/2
Time
02:00
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FIRST CONTRACT AND RELATIONS WITH OTHER UNIONS AT AOS
: Incorporated existing machinists' contract into that of #19806 in terms of seniority and layoff provisions. Differed from electricians who had seniority within classifications. While all unions agreed contracts would come due on same date, had problems with technical engineers who wanted percentage increase all the time, which was opposed by FLU 19806. Finally, agreement made to negotiate one year for percentage increase, the next for cents-per-hour raise. Contracts no longer discussed with technical engineers after they withdrew from AFL.
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Tape/Side
1/2
Time
05:40
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WHY MANAGEMENT-UNION RELATIONS MORE HARMONIOUS AT AOS THAN AT ALLIS-CHALMERS
: Le Clair an FTC representative at same time Harold Christoffel insisted on coming to FTC meetings and had to be removed. Christoffel was a “real tough cookie to deal with”; forwardness and lack of diplomacy part of reason for friction between union and A-C management. AOS management bargained hard, but once agreement reached, management honest in upholding contract. Ted Smith, grandson of AOS founder, encouraged personal contact by workers if strike vote seemed imminent. Workers felt they could talk, if need be, to any management official including the president. At Allis-Chalmers, personnel man only individual responsible for negotiations and grievances, and union often left with no place to go but the street.
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Tape/Side
1/2
Time
10:00
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LE CLAIR'S INVOLVEMENT IN UNION ACTIVITY FROM 1934-1946
: Steward from time union organized in 1934 through World War II. Near end of war, Le Clair ran successfully for grievance committee and became chairman of contact board. Two contact men on east side of plant, two on west side, and Le Clair as chairman was the “floater.” Contact board mechanism evolved because large number of grievances helped stewards iron out problems. Offices in plant for full-time contact board members.
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Tape/Side
1/2
Time
13:35
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WHY GRIEVANCES PILE UP
: Many minor complaints possibly unjustified because of lack of knowledge about a new contract. Reisdorff as general secretary made clear that FLU 19806 duty bound to accept provisions of existing contract until renegotiation; Le Clair followed same principle.
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Tape/Side
1/2
Time
15:55
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CHANGING COMPOSITION OF WORK FORCE DURING WORLD WAR II
: Many AOS employees drafted at a time AOS had government contracts for bombs and propeller blades; blacks and women hired who were required to join union in thirty days. Women worked at presses at equal pay to men (“we wouldn't have it any other way”). In some cases, union asked that slightly-built women not be assigned heavy work. Union always had a policy of saving easier jobs on line for older workers, so not too many “soft” jobs to go around after more women hired. Some discontent occurred, but generally old-timers gave in to women.
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Tape/Side
1/2
Time
19:05
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BLACKS ON AOS WORK FORCE
: Assigned to same jobs as whites, distributed throughout plant. Recalls how Aaron Tolliver, active unionist, elected as FTC delegate at a time FTC had policy not to seat “colored people.” Le Clair told Frank Ranney he expected all FLU 19806 delegates to be seated and warned if Tolliver not seated union would withdraw. FTC relented and problem never arose again. Notes that today union membership (now DALU 19806) at AOS almost more black than white and president now black. Adds that he regrets union decision to allow dues check-off instead of personal payment, which has distanced workers from union.
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Tape/Side
1/2
Time
24:00
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WOMEN'S PARTICIPATION IN FLU 19806 ACTIVITIES
: During World War II, women began to run for various union offices, although none competed for grievance committee. One woman on executive board.
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Tape/Side
1/2
Time
25:05
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POST-WAR CHANGES IN WORK FORCE
: Agreement made when war started that returning military personnel would take old jobs, plus seniority, and resume same shop positions. Least senior employees laid off.
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Tape/Side
1/2
Time
26:35
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EFFECTIVENESS OF FELIX REISDORF
: Active from very beginning of union, Reisdorf always involved in socialist activities and carried much information back to union meetings. Effective speaker; small in stature; honest and forth-right; insisted that workers live up to contract. If Reisdorf had secret to effectiveness, it was fairness, making decisions after putting oneself in shoes of workers who filed a grievance. Reisdorf more than anyone else responsible for firm union-management relations; no strike at AOS until the 1970's.
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Tape/Side
1/2
Time
29:50
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END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2
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Tape/Side
2/1
Time
00:00
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INTERVIEWER'S INTRODUCTION
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Tape/Side
2/1
Time
00:30
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1948 WORK STOPPAGE IN SMALL FRAME DEPARTMENT BECAUSE OF CONTRACT MISUNDERSTANDING
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Tape/Side
2/1
Time
02:15
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MILITANTS IN FLU 19806
: Always quite a few after advent of “union politics,” with candidates for union positions resorting to half-truths and outright lies about opponents. Recalls one contact board member who was mute during meeting, but disagreeable with personnel manager, citing that as example of individual who was not a union representative but a politician who wants to remain in office. Reisdorf never allowed union politicians to push him around.
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Tape/Side
2/1
Time
05:40
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RAID ATTEMPTS DURING 1930's
: FLU 19806 leadership approached by CIO who argued industrial workers would be better off in CIO than AFL craft organization. Valid point but CIO image not as good as AFL, where 19806 stayed because “we knew what we had and we never knew what we might get [in the CIO].”
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Tape/Side
2/1
Time
07:55
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LATER RAID ATTEMPTS
: Recalls Harvey Kitzman of UAW-CIO always after such shop committee individuals as Robert Durkin to swing union towards his organization. FLU 19806 executive board never convinced such a move was sound, but decided to let Durkin “run his horns off.”
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Tape/Side
2/1
Time
10:50
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PAID ATTEMPTS BY UAW-AFL (AIW)
: “Cliff Matchey wanted us pretty bad.” Carl Griepentrog and Reisdorf, members of WSFL executive board, were very good friends, and both fought WSFL president George Haberman. Matchey tried to influence Le Clair into swinging 19806 to AIW, because of rumors in 1950's that AFL would throw out industrial unions. While Le Clair considered AIW to be good, solid, militant organization, he reconsidered after meeting with George Meany during which Meany got “madder than hell” over unfounded rumors.
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Tape/Side
2/1
Time
14:35
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GOOD IMAGE OF AFL
: Mild-mannered, reasonable AFL president William Green created image needed by workers trying to get along. Meany's “give me this or else” attitude was different and not as effective as Green's approach. Meany was completely out of line on many issues, and held presidency much too long.
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Tape/Side
2/1
Time
16:40
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WSFL SOCIALIST LEADERS CONTRASTED WITH HABERMAN AND WILLIAM NAGORSNE
: No first-hand knowledge, but when Haberman wanted something had people like William Cooper to steer it through a convention. Haberman powerful; Nagorsne a mild-mannered opposite. Haberman's toughness came from Navy years when he was a champion boxer; intimidated those who disagreed with him.
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Tape/Side
2/1
Time
20:50
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HABERMAN REMAINS IN POWER
: Had in his camp influential individuals with large delegations when he called upon to jump on bandwagon. Recalls Haberman's tavern threats of physical violence to those who disagreed with him.
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Tape/Side
2/1
Time
21:50
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1944 WSFL CONVENTION
: Reisdorf attended and reported back that he opposed Haberman, “but if anybody went against Haberman they had a problem....”
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Tape/Side
2/1
Time
23:40
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AFL, NOT WSFL, IMPORTANT FOR FLU 19806
: Seldom looked to WSFL for anything, except to participate in state conventions. Fairly treated by AFL.
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Tape/Side
2/1
Time
25:45
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IMPORTANCE OF SECRETARY-TREASURER POSITION IN FLU 19806
: Secretary-treasurer actually a business agent, serving as chief negotiator (although union president officially the head negotiator) in contract talks, the key to smooth union-management relations. As dues collector, secretary-treasurer closest to the rank-and-file.
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Tape/Side
2/1
Time
28:45
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PROBLEMS WHEN LE CLAIR BECOMES SECRETARY-TREASURER OF FLU 19806
: No real problems, although some changes needed that Reisdorf, “a conservative guy,” would not agree to. For instance, more space was needed than in small union office on 27th Street.
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Tape/Side
2/1
Time
29:45
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END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 1
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Tape/Side
2/2
Time
00:00
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INTERVIEWER'S INTRODUCTION
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Tape/Side
2/2
Time
00:30
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CRAMPED QUARTERS LEAD TO NEW UNION OFFICE
: In 27th Street building, committees forced to meet in basement; full membership elsewhere. With money in treasury, Le Clair convinced executive board of need for new building. Building Committee formed under Le Clair's chairmanship, negotiated to buy two houses on corner lot on corner of 27th and Nash. Houses removed, then new building constructed in 1952 with large meeting hall in basement and smaller meeting room and offices upstairs.
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Tape/Side
2/2
Time
06:50
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SMITH STEEL ATHLETIC CLUB
: Union felt workers should play as well as work together, with such events as annual picnic with raffle and prizes for entire family. Decided to form Smith Steel Athletic Club to sponsor variety of activities for membership.
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Tape/Side
2/2
Time
11:00
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AOS AS EMPLOYER OF MANY GENERATIONS OF SAME FAMILY
: “Relative-Reference” system effective for father-son continuity and augured well for job seekers “because Smith was...in my opinion, if you had to work in a factory, I don't think there was a better factory to work in than A.O. Smith.” Fair treatment after union created, good wages, and consideration from shop foremen who were “all for the union because every time we got a raise, they got one, too.”
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Tape/Side
2/2
Time
12:35
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CONTRACT PENSION PROVISIONS DURING 1950's
: Pension plan successfully negotiated in 1950's that guaranteed stipend for life of retired employee. Describes details of plan, based on fifty per cent of average best five years of the last fifteen; compares Smith plan to that of UAW. Insurance program also successfully negotiated, with reserve funds set up from ten cents per hour deduction which could not be withdrawn except for emergencies. Grievance procedure remained same during period Le Clair was secretary-treasurer as before; Le Clair disagreed with some 19806 members who wanted union to get involved in time-study rate-setting, which Le Clair viewed as interference with management's right to run a shop. Contract, in Le Clair's view, is the key to holding management responsible to the worker.
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Tape/Side
2/2
Time
19:40
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FLU 19806 SUPPORT FOR MILWAUKEE BREWERY STRIKE AND KOHLER STRIKE IN 1950's
: Father of John Schmitt, later Wisconsin State AFL-CIO president, worked at A.O. Smith so 19806 and brewery workers had special attachment; gave financial support and picketing assistance during strike. During Kohler strike, AFL organizer Charles Heymanns appealed to 19806 financial assistance. Remembers how 19806 rented three buses and picketed at Kohler during a weekend; recalls Herbert Kohler's bullheadedness. [See John Schmitt and Charles Heymanns interviews conducted for the Wisconsin Labor Oral History Project in 1981.]
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Tape/Side
2/2
Time
23:35
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FLU 19806 INVOLVEMENT IN PARTISAN POLITICS
: Very active political committee for fund-raising in behalf of favored candidates. Sold one-dollar tickets; always accompanied favorites to plant gates. In later years, membership seemed to grow increasingly dissatisfied with AFL-CIO-endorsed candidates. Can't recall an instance of Republican candidate receiving money from the union.
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Tape/Side
2/2
Time
29:10
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POLITICS OF GEORGE HABERMAN AND FRANK RANNEY
: Both were Republicans.
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Tape/Side
2/2
Time
29:45
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END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 2
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Tape/Side
3/1
Time
00:00
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INTERVIEWER'S INTRODUCTION
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Tape/Side
3/1
Time
00:30
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POLITICS OF GEORGE HABERMAN AND FRANK RANNEY (CONTINUED)
: Tells story about farmer who joined Republican Party after becoming successful. Same malady affects union business agents.
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Tape/Side
3/1
Time
02:30
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1960 PRESIDENTIAL PRIMARY ELECTION IN WISCONSIN BETWEEN HUMPHREY AND KENNEDY
: Humphrey always a favorite of labor and entitled to its support. Humphrey intelligent but had femininity which didn't appeal to rank-and-file worker, although Le Clair himself always saw Humphrey as a fighter. Muses how Kennedy was like FDR, with compassion for the poor even though a millionaire, but how Ronald Reagan, with humble roots, ignores the poor.
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Tape/Side
3/1
Time
05:40
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GEORGE WALLACE APPEAL TO RANK-AND-FILE WORKER IN 1964
: Attracted to promises Wallaces made in speeches; seemed to sympathize with poor, promising to give them a fairer shake.
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Tape/Side
3/1
Time
07:55
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SUPPORT FOR PATRICK LUCEY IN INDUSTRIAL LAKESHORE REGION OF WISCONSIN
: Friend of labor with frank opinions. Recalls how Lucey must have lost many votes over controversy surrounding route of Interstate Highway 43.
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Tape/Side
3/1
Time
10:30
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CHANGES IN WORKERS' ATTITUDES TOWARDS WORK
: In 1933 in midst of severe depression, people fed up with having virtually no money; decided if opportunity came to make money, they would. Members who got job at AOS in 1930's worked hard, characteristic which continued until new group arrived who hadn't gone through depression period. AOS management took advantage of workers who were so pleased to have a job, something which Reisdorf once reminded management of during negotiations. AOS management now claims it must have shop committees to increase productivity and compete successfully, possibly because of younger workers' attitudes.
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Tape/Side
3/1
Time
15:05
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CHANGE IN WORKER SUPPORT FOR LABOR UNIONS
: Organized labor benefited because in depression era workers wanted and obtained security through union-management negotiations, possible only through worker organization.
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Tape/Side
3/1
Time
16:25
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LE CLAIR'S MOST SATISFACTORY MOMENTS IN LABOR MOVEMENT
: Long service to FLU 19806 on grievance procedure and as secretary-treasurer. Recalls old employee John Farmer complimenting him on his good service on grievances. In 1960, Le Clair left secretary-treasurer position to go back to plant as contact man to qualify for pension.
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Tape/Side
3/1
Time
19:30
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BIGGEST DISAPPOINTMENTS
: Problems caused by union infighting, although such activity indicates that those involved were thinking. Critical of political unionists who disliked him as a mainstay. Refers again to controversy in union over proposed time-study procedures.
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Tape/Side
3/1
Time
25:35
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ABSENCE OF STRIKES AT A.O. SMITH
: Le Clair proud of no strikes and few work stoppages while employed at AOS, although many recent employees seemed to disapprove. Smith among the highest paying plants in Milwaukee and, as a result, the “membership made as much or more money at A.O. Smith than they would have made anywhere else in Milwaukee.”
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Tape/Side
3/1
Time
27:35
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INTERVIEWER'S CONCLUDING REMARKS
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Tape/Side
3/1
Time
28:20
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END OF INTERVIEW
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