Title: United Food and Commercial Workers Union Retired Leaders Oral History Project: Patrick Gorman Interview
Inclusive Dates: 1980

Creator:

• Gorman, Patrick, 1892-1980

Call Number: Tape 847A

Extent: 4 tape recordings

Repository:

Wisconsin Historical Society, Division of Library, Archives, and Museum Collections

Archival Locations:

Wisconsin Historical Society (Map)

COLLECTION MAY BE STORED OFF-SITE: see catalog entry to request materials and for additional information.

Abstract:

Oral history interview with Patrick Gorman about his experiences as a long-time (1920-1979) officer of the Amalgamated Meat Cutters and Butcher Workmen of North America. Interviewed by James Cavanaugh of the Historical Society staff, this interview is part of the United Food and Commercial Workers Union Retired Leaders Oral History Project.

Language: English

URL to cite for this finding aid: http://digital.library.wisc.edu/1711.dl/wiarchives.uw-whs-tape00847a

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Patrick E. Gorman joined Local 227 of the Amalgamated Meat Cutters and Butcher Workmen of North America in his home town of Louisville, Kentucky, in 1911. In 1920 he was elected Executive Vice-President of the Amalgamated. In the intervening years he served as business agent of Local 227, president of the Louisville Trades and Labor Assembly, a vice-president of the Kentucky Federation of Labor, and a special organizer for the Amalgamated. Also in that period he earned a law degree. President of the Amalgamated from 1923 to 1942, he became the union's chief executive officer, Secretary-Treasurer, in the latter year. He served in that post until 1976 when he retired to the post of Chairman of the Board. When the Amalgamated merged with the Retail Clerks International Union in 1979 to form the United Food and Commercial Workers Union, Gorman was honored with the title of Chairman of the Board Emeritus.

When Gorman became president of the Amalgamated, the union, having suffered two disastrous packinghouse worker strikes in the previous two decades, could claim a membership of but a few thousand. At the time of its merger with the Clerks, the union could claim a membership exceeding a half million. Gorman, a lifelong socialist and oftentimes maverick within the established labor movement, must be given credit for much of this growth. He truly deserves the title bestowed upon him--“Mr. Amalgamated.” Mr. Gorman died September 2, 1980, at eighty-seven years of age.

Interview

I [interviewer James Cavanaugh] interviewed Gorman for an hour and a half on August 5, 1980, and for about an hour and a quarter on August 6, 1980, in his office in Chicago. Because of Gorman's advanced age and declining health, Hilton Hanna, who served as Gorman's executive assistant for thirty years, sat in on the interviews. Hanna's interjections are evident from time to time during the interview. Unfortunately, also because of Gorman's health and age, this interview does not have a very high research value. Because of his frailty and poor hearing, he often did not answer the question that was asked. Mr. Gorman also had trouble with dates, details, and the sequence of events. Furthermore, he tended to go off on tangents, which, as an old story teller, had always been one of his characteristics. In short, Mr. Gorman ideally should have been interviewed four or five years earlier.

The best parts of the interview were when he discussed the merger of the Amalgamated with the Fur and Leather Workers and also the merger and merger talks with the Retail Clerks. The most disappointing aspects are the discussions of the United Packinghouse Workers and the Amalgamated's relationship with them. I was unable, for instance, to get Mr. Gorman to analyze the failed merger of 1956. Most of the anecdotes Mr. Gorman relates in the interview are covered in more detail in Hanna's Picket and the Pen. The careful researcher will compare all of Mr. Gorman's statements with other sources.

Abstract to the Interview

The tapes for this interview have two tracks: a voice track containing the discussion and a time track containing time announcements at intervals of approximately five seconds. The abstract lists, in order of discussion, the topics covered on each tape, and indicates the time-marking at which point the beginning of the particular discussion appears.

Thus, the researcher by using a tape recorder's fast-forward button may find expeditiously and listen to discrete segments without listening to all of the taped discussion. For instance, the user who wishes to listen to the topic on “UPWA - AMC&BW MERGER IN 1968” should locate the place on the second track of side one, tape one, where the voice announces the 07:30 time-marking (the voice says at this point, “Seven minutes, thirty seconds”), and at this point switch to the first track to hear the discussion. The discussion on “UPWA - AMC&BW MERGER IN 1968” continues until approximately 09:20 at which point discussion of the next topic (“WHY THE AMC&BW DID NOT AFFILIATE WITH THE CIO”) begins.

Notice that in most cases sentences beneath each headline explain more about the contents of the topic. For example the sentences underneath “UPWA - AMC&BW MERGER IN 1968” give further details on what appears on the tape between 07:30 and 08:20.

The abstract is designed to provide only a brief outline of the content of the tapes and cannot serve as a substitute for listening to them. However the abstract when used with the index will help the researcher easily locate distinct topics and discussions among the many minutes of commentary.

Index to the Interview

There is no separate index for this interview. There is an master index for all the interviews with UFCW leaders.

The State Historical Society's voluminous Amalgamated Meat Cutters collection documents Gorman's activities fairly thoroughly for the 1950's and 1960's, and much less thoroughly for earlier years.

Processing Information

Abstract prepared by James A. Cavanaugh, October 9, 1980.

Tape/Side   1/1 Time   00:00	INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   00:30	GORMAN ORIGINALLY JOINED THE AMALGAMATED MEAT CUTTERS AND BUTCHER WORKMEN OF NORTH AMERICA (AMC&BW) BECAUSE EVERYONE BELONGED TO THE UNION WHERE HE WORKED Scope and Content Note: His Louisville, Kentucky, local union survived the 1904 packinghouse workers strike because its contract did not expire until 1905.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   02:35	THE 1904 PACKINGHOUSE STRIKE Scope and Content Note: Four thousand policemen in Chicago to protect scabs. National Guard sent in elsewhere.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   04:40	HARDSHIP OF THE 1904 STRIKE MADE THE CHILDREN OF THOSE STRIKERS ANTI-UNION AND VERY DIFFICULT TO ORGANIZE IN 1920'S AND 1930'S
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   0:00	CREATION OF THE PACKINGHOUSE WORKERS ORGANIZING COMMITTEE (PWOC) Scope and Content Note: The CIO “was just the thing for the packinghouse workers; and they joined.”
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   06:45	RIVALRY BETWEEN THE UNITED PACKINGHOUSE WORKERS (UPWA) AND THE AMC&BW Scope and Content Note: It was constant. When one would have a strike, the other would try to lure the strikers.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   07:30	UPWA - AMC&BW MERGER IN 1968 Scope and Content Note: An unhappy union for a long time afterward because the UPWA did not think the AMC&BW was progressive enough. UPWA wanted “strikes, strikes, strikes.” AMC&BW wanted “contracts, contracts, contracts. That was the basic difference between the two.”
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   09:20	WHY THE AMC&BW DID NOT AFFILIATE WITH THE CIO Scope and Content Note: Large Catholic “foreign” membership. Gorman feels AMC&BW was able to remain neutral and to maintain friendship with unions in both the AFL and the CIO. Gorman has an autographed photo from John L. Lewis, signed “to my best friend, Pat Gorman.”
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   10:40	AMC&BW TRADITION OF MERGER AND OF RECONCILIATION WITH ITS OWN DISSIDENTS MADE MERGER WITH UPWA EASIER
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   12:15	HISTORY OF MERGER TALKS WITH THE RETAIL CLERKS INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION (RCIA) Scope and Content Note: Gorman and James Suffridge began talking shortly after Suffridge became RCIA President. Suffridge felt the chain stores would be very difficult to organize if the two unions remained separate. Suffridge, his Secretary-Treasurer Vernon Housewright, and Gorman and his President Earl Jimerson, would play pool in Suffridge's basement and discuss merger. When the RCIA moved from Lafayette, Indiana, to Washington, D.C., merger talks ended. Gorman hints that one hang up was who would get what office in the proposed merged union.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   17:05	MERGER OF THE RCIA AND THE AMC&BW Scope and Content Note: Serious merger talks resumed when the leaders of the two unions attended a legislative gathering in Washington, D.C., and AMC&BW vice-president Leon Schachter suggested AMC&BW leaders approach RCIA President James Housewright, since everyone was in an amiable mood. This occurred about 1970. When William Wynn became President of RCIA, he seemed more eager for merger than anyone else.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   21:45	ANECDOTE ABOUT GORMAN'S FORMER LAW FIRM TRYING TO LURE HIM BACK TO WORK WITH THEM Scope and Content Note: To keep him, the AMC&BW at its 1964 convention guaranteed Gorman his salary for life.
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   24:15	IMPORTANT ROLE OF VICE-PRESIDENT HARRY POOLE IN RCIA MERGER TALKS
Tape/Side   1/1 Time   26:50	ONE REASON FOR MERGER WAS RCIA HAD MORE QUALIFIED YOUNG LEADERS
	END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   00:00	INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   00:30	HOW GORMAN BECAME EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT OF AMC&BW IN 1920 Scope and Content Note: Secretary-Treasurer Dennis Lane had lined up the delegates to dump President John Hart, but Gorman gave a speech which turned the balance to Hart's favor. Hart then insisted on creation of the office of Executive Vice President and gave the post to Gorman as a reward.
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   04:35	INTERNAL POLITICKING IN AMC&BW DURING THE 1920's Scope and Content Note: Hart's resignation (1921) and Cornelius Hayes' elevation to the presidency. Lane was still in control and prevented Gorman's succession to the presidency as punishment for his role in the 1920 convention. By the time Hayes resigned (1923), however, the balance of power had shifted to Gorman and German hints that Lane would have been removed if he had attempted to prevent Gorman's succession to the presidency.
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   09:25	RELATIVE PEACE WITHIN THE AMC&BW Scope and Content Note: While the union had internal animosities between the various divisions of the industry, it did not have the severe internal fights that other unions suffered.
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   10:50	GORMAN DID THE SAME THING FOR LANE IN 1940 THAT HE DID FOR HART IN 1920 Scope and Content Note: Lane was sick and unpopular, but Gorman stopped the attempt to refuse Lane re-election.
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   12:40	LANE'S SCHEME TO MAKE THE AMC&BW THE RICHEST UNION IN THE COUNTRY Scope and Content Note: He bought 80,000 oil-rich acres in South Dakota, but the union lost the land before it could be developed.
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   15:35	BECAUSE OF WORKING PROXIMITY, LANE AND GORMAN DEVELOPED A GOOD WORKING RELATIONSHIP OVER THE YEARS DESPITE EARLY ANIMOSITY
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   17:15	AMC&BW LEADERS HAVE ALWAYS MAINTAINED A CLOSE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE RANK AND FILE
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   18:20	ANECDOTE ABOUT GORMAN'S ROLE IN SIOUX CITY, IOWA, DURING 1921 STRIKE Scope and Content Note: When he arrived in town, the strikers insisted he give a speech despite the presence of National Guardsmen and a great deal of tension. The mass rally ended up with the sheriff shot and three people killed.
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   21:50	VIOLENCE IN CHICAGO DURING THE 1921 STRIKE Scope and Content Note: Some strikers would mug scabs on pay day.
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   23:45	DESPITE LEADING “ILLEGAL” PARADES AND GIVING INFLAMMATORY SPEECHES, GORMAN WAS NEVER ARRESTED
Tape/Side   1/2 Time   24:15	GORMAN'S TRADE UNION PHILOSOPHY Scope and Content Note: Collective bargaining the only defense for workers. Favored industrial organizing from the first. Lifelong socialist and solid Roman Catholic.
	END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   2/1 Time   00:00	INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   2/1 Time   00:30	GORMAN ON CIVIL RIGHTS Scope and Content Note: He was more advanced than most labor leaders because he lived in an integrated neighborhood until he was fourteen years old and his mother used to walk to church with a black woman every Sunday.
Tape/Side   2/1 Time   03:00	FELLOWSHIP AND GAINING MEMBERS' CONFIDENCE WERE THE KEY FACTORS IN ORGANIZING IN THE 1920's
Tape/Side   2/1 Time   04:25	ORGANIZING PIGGLY WIGGLY Scope and Content Note: Gorman helped Clarence Saunders of Piggly Wiggly save face in resolving a sticky grievance and this helped solidify their relationship.
Tape/Side   2/1 Time   09:50	THE SAFEWAY MASTER AGREEMENT Scope and Content Note: Gorman and Safeway's personnel man played three games of horseshoes. Gorman won two out of three and Safeway agreed not to oppose the union's organizing efforts.
Tape/Side   2/1 Time   14:25	A & P Scope and Content Note: Won over by Gorman's efforts to defeat anti-chain store legislation (the Patman Bill). Gorman spoke against a pro-Patnam Bill resolution at an AFL convention, winning over AFL President William Green and defeating the resolution.
Tape/Side   2/1 Time   17:55	ANECDOTE ABOUT SETTLING NINE MONTH STRIKE IN LOUISVILLE'S LARGEST PACKINGHOUSE PLANT Scope and Content Note: Gorman had a striker rough up the boss so that Gorman could come to the rescue, thus providing an entree for resuming talks. Although the strike was lost, Gorman convinced the boss that the union would go back to work without a pay raise if all strikers were returned to their old jobs.
Tape/Side   2/1 Time   22:20	ANECDOTE ABOUT SETTLING ANOTHER VERY LONG STRIKE BY PERSONALIZING THE WORDING OF THE PICKET SIGNS
Tape/Side   2/1 Time   24:40	GORMAN'S UNIFYING SPEECH BEFORE THE BRITISH TRADE UNION CONGRESS Scope and Content Note: The Congress was split bitterly between communists and anti-communists. Gorman brought about unity by chastising the delegates for putting politics before the workers. His speech made the front pages of the London newspapers.
	END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 1 Note: Tape 2, Side 2 is blank.
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   00:00	INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   00:30	WHY THE AMC&BW DID NOT JOIN THE CIO Scope and Content Note: Loyalty to the AFL. AMC&BW was not anti-CIO.
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   01:55	ANALYSIS OF AFL WEAKNESSES Scope and Content Note: Gorman sees some truth in Eugene Debs' claim that AFL President Samuel Gompers was partially responsible for defeat of the Pullman Strike. Gompers changed from an old socialist to an anti-socialist.
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   04:35	IN SOME CASES THE EXISTENCE OF THE CIO WAS AN AID TO AMC&BW ORGANIZING Scope and Content Note: Particularly in the beginning when John L. Lewis ordered the CIO not to organize workers eligible to join the AMC&BW, particularly meat cutters in the coal regions.
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   05:45	PWOC AND AMC&BW RAIDING WAS CONSTANT
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   06:05	STRONG SENTIMENT AMONGST AMC&BW PACKINGHOUSE WORKERS FOR AMC&BW TO JOIN CIO
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   07:05	COOPERATION BETWEEN UPWA AND AMC&BW Scope and Content Note: Less cooperation after World War II, but also less interference in each other's activities.
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   09:50	1948 UPWA STRIKE Scope and Content Note: Gorman did not want the packers to give UPWA any more than the AMC&BW had settled for. He did not expect the defeat of the strike to hurt the UPWA much because its members were put back to work in the industry; the union was not busted.
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   12:00	UPWA AND AMC&BW UNITED IN THEIR DISLIKE OF PRESIDENT TRUMAN'S SECRETARY OF LABOR, L. SCHWELLENBACH
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   13:00	AMC&BW PACKINGHOUSE WORKERS HAD MIXED FEELINGS ABOUT UPWA 1948 STRIKE
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   15:55	AMC&BW AND UPWA COOPERATION IN 1960'S Scope and Content Note: In the years just prior to the merger AMC&BW, when possible, would aid UPWA strikes by refusing to handle struck goods.
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   16:25	REUTHER, MEANY, AND THE AFL-CIO MERGER Scope and Content Note: Reuther could out talk Meany. Meany was critical of everyone who would not agree with him.
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   18:35	ANECDOTE ABOUT UPWA - AMC&BW MERGER ANNOUNCEMENT AT THE AFL-CIO CONVENTION Scope and Content Note: AFL-CIO Secretary-Treasurer William Schnitzler put them up to it for the symbolism involved. In fact, the merger talks were not at all that far along. “It was all a fake.”
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   20:25	AMC&BW - UPWA MERGER Scope and Content Note: Close to merger on more than one occasion. The merger convention in 1968 was a “hot convention.” Tensions continued for sometime afterward. It was never “a merger of love.” The UPWA felt the AMC&BW “belonged to a different age.” AMC&BW felt there were too many people in the UPWA who favored communism. Arguments in the halls of the headquarters building continued for some time.
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   23:40	RALPH HELSTEIN, PRESIDENT OF UPWA Scope and Content Note: Highly educated, “an excellent trade unionist.” “Did a damned good job for the labor movement.”
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   24:15	MARRIAGE WITH THE UPWA NEVER WAS SMOOTH Scope and Content Note: Meat cutters continued to believe UPWA was communist.
Tape/Side   3/1 Time   25:20	AMC&BW MERGER WITH THE FUR AND LEATHER WORKERS UNION Scope and Content Note: AMC&BW came very close to being thrown out of the AFL because of this merger. AFL Executive Council met to determine AMC&BW's future relationship with the Federation. Meany said the AMC&BW would be thrown out of the AFL if it insisted on merging with the communist-dominated Fur and Leather Workers. Gorman responded with an emotional, tear-filled farewell speech.
	END OF TAPE 3, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   3/2 Time   00:00	INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   3/2 Time   00:30	CONTINUATION OF STORY OF AFL APPROVAL OF AMC&BW MERGER WITH FUR AND LEATHER WORKERS Scope and Content Note: Meany was moved by Gorman's speech. David Dubinsky, who was closer to Meany than anyone else on the Council, then spoke in favor of the merger and in favor of keeping the AMC&BW in the AFL. Meany then told Gorman that the AFL removed all objections to the merger, but he did not give formal approval and never did.
Tape/Side   3/2 Time   05:35	GORMAN'S BATTLES WITH MEANY OVER EXPULSIONS FROM THE AFL-CIO, PARTICULARLY THE TEAMSTERS Scope and Content Note: Teamsters helped organize many AMC&BW members.
Tape/Side   3/2 Time   07:25	TEAMSTERS AND AMC&BW BATTLE WITH BANQUET BRAND FOODS Scope and Content Note: Teamster President James Hoffa refused to settle with Banquet unless the company also recognized the AMC&BW.
Tape/Side   3/2 Time   14:05	AMC&BW'S LACK OF A SEAT ON THE AFL-CIO EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Scope and Content Note: For a long time AMC&BW did not care; Gorman personally did not really want to be on the Council. AMC&BW finally pushed the issue just to test the democracy of the AFL-CIO. Meany offered to give Gorman the next vacancy if he would withdraw his candidacy, but the AMC&BW, particularly President Thomas J. (“Jack”) Lloyd, would not permit it. Although Gorman lost, his strong showing surprised everyone. Gorman knew then he would never be offered a seat on the Council. After Gorman retired, AMC&BW President Harry Poole was finally put on the Council.
Tape/Side   3/2 Time   20:40	GORMAN AND MEANY DIFFERENCES ON INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS, PARTICULARLY THE INTERNATIONAL LABOR ORGANIZATION
Tape/Side   3/2 Time   21:50	GORMAN'S ANTI-COMMUNISM BASED ON HIS BELIEF IN CHRISTIANITY
	END OF TAPE 3, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   4/1 Time   00:00	INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   4/1 Time   00:30	OPPOSITION TO MERGER WITH UPWA Scope and Content Note: Opposition was stronger amongst the meat cutters, but also existed amongst AMC&BW's packinghouse workers. Felt the UPWA was too radical and hard to control, too willing to strike. Vice-president Leon Schachter held out against the merger until the end.
Tape/Side   4/1 Time   02:10	MUSINGS ON THE CONDITION OF MAN AND THE WORLD Scope and Content Note: Things are not good, but Gorman is optimistic that a better world is coming.
Tape/Side   4/1 Time   05:40	CREATION OF THE UNITED FOOD AND COMMERCIAL WORKERS UNION Scope and Content Note: “The best thing that ever happened,” provided the leadership retains a feeling for the membership.
	END OF INTERVIEW