Subseries: Heslip, Robert L.

INTRODUCTION

BIOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Heslip's father a railroad section foreman. Born and raised in the La Crosse area. “In those days, you worked at what you could get.” Worked on the railroad and on farms in summers; worked two years in the Civilian Conservation Corps; worked in a sawmill in Stoddard, Wisconsin. Father died when he was 12. Quit school at age 16 to help support the family. He was the oldest of five children. Moved to La Crosse in 1940; worked for a cement block manufacturer. Married in 1941. Drafted in 1942.

FIRST FOOD STORE WORK, A & P, LA CROSSE, 1942
Scope and Content Note: “When I went to work for the A & P clerking in the winter of '42..., I was just marking time until they drafted me.” Times were tough. Had applications in at most factories in the area. “One thing, I had made up my mind real early, I was never going to be a farmer.”

WHEN HESLIP RETURNED FROM THE ARMY, HE DID NOT RETURN TO A & P IMMEDIATELY
Scope and Content Note: “When I went down to talk to the manager, he had put on some people during the war who weren't drafted, and you had to force him to go to work. He discouraged you as much as he could.” Heslip did not force the issue; “I didn't want to work some place where I wasn't wanted.” Went to work as a locomotive fireman on the Burlington Railroad for the winter of 1945 and 1946. Was laid off in the spring, “so I went back to the A & P with my cap in my hand, and the man took me back.” Had intended to return to the railroad in the fall because he was making three or four times as much money there. Did not like the work situation offered by the railroad in the fall, so stayed with A & P. “This was still, as far as I was concerned, a stopgap until I got something better. And things never came better.... And after a couple or three years, you started getting rights....”

WHY HESLIP DECIDED TO STAY WITH CLERK WORK
Scope and Content Note: “Being poor when I was young...and working for little or nothing and working on these short-time jobs..., I had a fear of not working. Job security was one of my biggest goals in life.” The store was unionized, so the hours were not bad, and “you had a job guarantee, if you did your work. So, it didn't pay me to jump jobs.”

MORE ON FIRST JOB WITH A & P, 1942--THE BEGINNINGS OF SUPERMARKET AND SELF-SERVICE IN LA CROSSE
Scope and Content Note: Got the job through his brother who had been working at this store. It was the only A & P store left in La Crosse. It was a supermarket. A & P had closed all its little stores and was concentrating all its effort in the one supermarket. “It was something really new.” Had specialists come from out of town to help with displays and the like. “It was still in the first wave of this changeover (to self-service supermarkets). You had to go and wait on people. They'd come in, and they wouldn't take a shopping cart to start with.” With a shopping cart, “they can carry more than they can in their arms. They're going to buy more.... They could never find anything; they had signs all over.”

CUSTOMER RELATIONS
Scope and Content Note: The manager was not an easy man to work for, but “politeness was rule number one.” The manager and A & P believed “the customer was always right. The customer was your boss. I still believe this.”

DIGRESSION INTO WORKS PROGRESS ADMINISTRATION AND 1930s-1940s VERSION OF FOOD STAMPS
Scope and Content Note: Had a brother-in-law who worked in Onalaska, Wisconsin, making clothes which were given to people on welfare. Pay was poor and came partly in cash and partly in stamps.

MORE ON CUSTOMER REACTION TO INTRODUCTION OF SELF-SERVICE
Scope and Content Note: Heslip started at the store in early January 1942 and went into the Army in November 1942. “But in that time, things got better as far as you helping people out.” Those who worked there before him said things were much worse before he came. Clerks complained they could get no stocking done because they were always helping customers. The store did a very good business, despite customer resistance to self-service; a steady flow of customers.

DESCRIPTION OF HESLIP'S FIRST A & P IN LA CROSSE
Scope and Content Note: Had been an old garage. Had four checkouts; maybe five aisles wide and a half block deep. Remodelled frequently after the war.

HESLIP'S WORK AT THE FIRST A & P
Scope and Content Note: A back-room man. Did very little bagging. Checked in deliveries and took them out for others to stock shelves.

END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1

INTRODUCTION

MORE ON HESLIP'S WORK AT THE A & P, 1942
Scope and Content Note: Anecdote about getting in a big shipment of oil-base products which were in short supply. Store closed at 6 p.m., and clerks stocked until 10 p.m. He quit at 10 p.m., even though not everything had been stocked. At 9 a.m. the next morning, the manager was at his door bawling him out for not finishing. Went to the store and worked for four hours without pay to finish the job. “I could have complained probably to the union, but then it would have caused a stink again, see. Like I say, he wasn't being unjust. But that was the kind of a person we had.”

HOURS OF WORK IN THE 1940s
Scope and Content Note: In 1942, closed the store at 6 p.m. and were scheduled to clean up until 7 p.m. When he came back from the Army, the union contract had cut the hours from about 56 per week to about 50 or 48. “The guy came around there at 5:30 p.m. and said, 'Hey Bob, you better start sweeping the floor.... We got to get out of here at six o'clock. I always sweep the floor when the customers are still in the store.' Well, that was unheard of before. I found out a lot of things (to) which the customer had been educated while I was gone. The companies had educated the customers to do things our way now.”

WAGES IN 1942
Scope and Content Note: Worked five nine-hour days and 11 hours on Friday for $18. “I considered myself lucky to have a job.” Rented a three-room apartment at the time for $15 a month. “So we got along real good.”

NUMBER OF EMPLOYEES AT A & P IN 1942
Scope and Content Note: Quite a few, though nothing compared to the 85 or 90 who worked in the large Madison A & P later in his career. Six butchers; full service meats. Three in produce department. Six checkers.

NEAR STRIKE AT A & P IN 1942
Scope and Content Note: Dispute over hours and wages. Contract was ratified but not signed until after he left for the Army in November. Got a retroactive check when he came home for furlough in June 1943.

THE LOCAL UNION (RETAIL CLERKS INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION LOCAL 640) DURING WORLD WAR II
Scope and Content Note: “I don't think that they had too many contracts during the war. As a matter of fact, the union, the local, kind of went to pot.” Union lost most of its nonfood stores during the war. Contracts lapsed; employees were given raises without a contract and felt they did not need a union. Right after the war, “we used to have union meetings where ten people would come.”

NATURE OF THE UNION IN THE 1940s
Scope and Content Note: “I'd never been in a union before; I'd never worked in a union shop before. They told me when I went to work there, they said, 'You got to join the union.' At that time, unions were a big thing, of course you know they were new; it was very secret. The night I went into the union, we all stayed out in another room--all the apprentices or whatever, the initiates--we stayed out in one room and then after they had the meeting, then they called us all in there, and you took an oath.... Unions in those days were kind of like a club, a fraternal organization.” Had belonged to a union when he worked for the railroad, but was so busy, getting only eight hours off between shifts, he was never able to attend a union meeting.

LOCAL 640 AFTER THE WAR AND HOW HESLIP BECAME ACTIVE IN THE UNION
Scope and Content Note: The union was in poor condition after the war, so the La Crosse Trades and Labor Council contacted the RCIA in Milwaukee. Murray Plopper, an organizer, was sent to La Crosse; he served as business representative and did quite a bit of organizing. The recording secretary of the local left town. “Some guy said, 'I nominate Bob Heslip.' And five people were there.... So I was recording secretary for a year or two.” Plopper attended every meeting and guided the local officers. Plopper looked at the books after awhile and decided the secretary-treasurer was doing a poor job. So, Heslip was elected to that post. The local began to grow. Plopper tried to convince Heslip to become a business representative, “but I had a sure thing with the A & P.... It didn't look secure enough to me to quit and go to work as a business agent for the union. So I didn't.”

HOW HESLIP BECAME INACTIVE IN THE UNION
Scope and Content Note: He was assigned as a manager in a small store (in Waukon, Iowa) for a short time. Shortly after that he became an assistant manager. “Let's put it this way. The company came around and said, 'It isn't nice to have our assistant manager be a strong union man. If you want to make anything of yourself, forget it.' Maybe not in so many words, but that was the drift.... If I ever wanted to be a manager, I could forget about union work. It all goes back to job security.” Remained pro-union and slightly active; was a shop steward and on the bargaining committee. “It was always in the back of my mind that I don't want to antagonize A & P.... They scared me, let's put it that way. It all comes back to this thing of job security. I want to better myself; I don't want to take any chances of losing out.... It's not the greatest thing in the world to admit; but, let's face it, that's the story.”

(RECAPITULATION OF CERTAIN CHRONOLOGY COVERED IN THE INTERVIEW TO THIS POINT)

REMODELLING OF HIS A & P STORE AFTER THE WAR
Scope and Content Note: One of the first things done was to put in new checkouts and cash registers. Changed from the old carts to more modern shopping carts. Old carts folded up, and customer placed two separate baskets in them--one above and one below. Many people were carrying the baskets instead of putting them in the carts. Concern about mothers putting children in these baskets in the old carts, which was very unsafe. “You had a few...men who still wouldn't push that cart around.”

HESLIP'S WORK AT A & P AFTER THE WAR
Scope and Content Note: He was a stocker in the aisles. Did stocking during the day, except on the two delivery days each week when they would stock until 10 p.m.

END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2

INTRODUCTION

MORE ON HESLIP'S WORK AT A & P AFTER THE WAR
Scope and Content Note: Stocking during the day, except on weekends when only depleted items were stocked. After a couple years, the store was remodelled and a large dairy department was put in, and Heslip was placed in charge of it. He was sent to school for a week to learn how to run the dairy department, how to cut and wrap cheese, the kinds of cheese. Coffee and tobacco products were included in the dairy department.

CHANGES WROUGHT BY THE CREATION OF A DAIRY DEPARTMENT
Scope and Content Note: Previously all cheese was in the meat department by the sausage, except cream cheese or other small pre-packaged cheese which were with the milk. The new dairy department had an open dairy case. “People couldn't feature how you could leave a case open refrigerated and not have to close the doors on it.... For about the first year, I'd stand around explaining to people how the air flowed around...and would keep it cold.” Top of case had cheese, butter, margarine; bottom had milk, eggs, cottage cheese, etc.

WORK OF THE DAIRY DEPARTMENT--CHEESE
Scope and Content Note: When the cheese was taken from the meat department and put in the dairy department, many new types of cheese were added. Many of these, being new and strange, did not go over well with the customers. “You had to talk a lot of this cheese up.” Cheese still came in bulk. Heslip would cut, package, sometimes slice, and display the cheese. Description of the sizes and shapes the bulk cheese came in and how he would cut various kinds. Cut the bulk cheese with a piano wire. The more expensive the cheese, the smaller the piece he would cut. If something was on sale, he would cut it in larger chunks. Tried to have a variety of sizes of each type of cheese. “I just cut it to suit myself.” Would do custom cutting for a customer. Cheese companies provided recipe booklets to educate people to eat cheese in forms other than sandwiches. “June Dairy Month” promotion started; prizes for the best decorated store. Introduction of dips; “had demonstrators there like they got pizza demonstrators today.”

ALL CHEESE CAME OUT OF THE A & P WAREHOUSE EXCEPT FOR A COUPLE VENDORS
Scope and Content Note: Could not buy cheese locally direct from cheese factories. “The stuff was made in Viroqua, but it was shipped to Milwaukee and back.”

EXAMPLE OF INEFFICIENCY OF GETTING EVERYTHING THROUGH A & P's MILWAUKEE WAREHOUSE
Scope and Content Note: When he worked in Madison, the store carried bagels which were made in Madison. At first, the store had the bagels delivered directly from the manufacturer. Then, A & P changed its policy and required that the bagels be shipped from Madison to the warehouse in Milwaukee and then back to the store in Madison.

WORK OF THE DAIRY DEPARTMENT--EGGS
Scope and Content Note: For awhile, could buy eggs directly from farmers. Farmers would bring in ungraded eggs. Heslip would buy them with a cash voucher. He would have to candle them. A & P had a big egg candling operation in Plymouth, Wisconsin, which served the whole state. Sold grade A, B and C eggs for awhile, but grade C eggs were old eggs and were dropped after numerous customer complaints. After that A & P sent the grade C eggs to its bakery. Heslip carried only grade A eggs. Would pay farmers whatever the commission house in La Crosse was paying. Description of how he candled eggs. A membrane holds the yolk in the center of the white. As the egg ages, air gets in through the shell and weakens the membrane. If you can see the yolk when candling, then the egg is old. The larger the dimple in a hard boiled egg, the older the egg; the dimple is really an air pocket; this air pocket can also be seen when candling. The grade of an egg is a measure of its age, not its size.

HESLIP'S DAIRY TRAINING IN MILWAUKEE
Scope and Content Note: Downtown Milwaukee. Only about ten people being trained when he was there.

END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 1

INTRODUCTION

MORE ON PURCHASING EGGS DIRECTLY FROM FARMERS
Scope and Content Note: Heslip did not grade the eggs; he just candled them to see if they were spoiled. Nine times out of ten, the farmer would spend right in the store the money paid for his eggs. Heslip did not candle the eggs at the time of purchase. If he did not know the farmer, or if the farmer brought in a small quantity, which usually indicated the eggs were old, he would either candle them immediately or make an excuse that he did not need any eggs. With his regular suppliers, if he found a bad egg, he would deduct it from the next batch brought in. Sometimes, as a service, he would buy eggs from regular suppliers even if he didn't need them; he would then sell the unneeded eggs to the commission house. “Probably sometimes you're wrong, but, you know, some people come in, and just by the clothes they've got, the manure on their clothes..., they don't look too fresh themselves.... I'd say, 'I'm sorry, I got too many eggs.'”

A & P SET THE PRICE FOR EGGS AND CHEESE EVEN IF PURCHASED LOCALLY
Scope and Content Note: The only time Heslip would set the price was if the store was running short on an item. Then he would raise the price to slow sales, “but that was forbidden by the company.”

A & P BILLED THE STORES THE RETAIL PRICE FOR GROCERIES
Scope and Content Note: “When you get your grocery load in, you don't know what it cost.” Stock inventory every three months.

MEAT AND PRODUCE WORKED ON A GROSS PROFIT STRUCTURE WITH WEEKLY INVENTORIES
Scope and Content Note: “They raise and lower produce and meat prices from headquarters by what your grosses have been running.”

IF A & P DID NOT SET THE EXACT PRICE, IT WOULD SET THE PERCENTAGE MARKUP

USED TO BUY PRODUCE LOCALLY, BUT THE INTRODUCTION OF INSECTICIDES ENDED THAT
Scope and Content Note: When Heslip was managing his own store in Portage, he always bought his sweet corn locally because A & P would be buying from the same source, shipping it to Milwaukee, and then sending it to him. Thus, the sweet corn from the warehouse was a day and a half old; he could sell sweet corn picked that same day.

MORE ON PRICING OF LOCAL PURCHASES
Scope and Content Note: The store had to tell A & P the price it paid for any local purchases. A & P would dictate the markup, and it was against company policy to mark-up any more than that, although stores would mark it up higher to insure that inventory was in the black.

MORE ON DAIRY DEPARTMENT--MILK
Scope and Content Note: Customers did not readily accept milk in paper cartons. When paper cartons first introduced, they were not all that strong; often would get bumped and leak. Milk in paper cartons first appeared in quarts and half gallons in the late 1940s. Took some time before gallon-size cartons appeared because the technology was not advanced enough for paper to withstand the pressure of a full gallon.

MORE ON WORKING WITH CHEESE IN THE DAIRY DEPARTMENT
Scope and Content Note: Wrapped in a type of cellophane and sealed with a heating iron. “Whenever you touch cheese (with your fingers), in a day or so you're going to find...a round spot of mold. The bacteria from your fingers gets on the cheese.” Thus, tried never to touch the cheese with his bare hands. On Monday he would trim and rewrap any cheese with mold on it, and then cut up more to begin a stockpile for the weekend.

WHEN HESLIP WAS DAIRY DEPARTMENT HEAD, HE DID NOT GET ANY EXTRA PAY LIKE THE PRODUCE DEPARTMENT HEAD DID
Scope and Content Note: He was good friends with Murray Plopper, and they often worked together organizing stores. Plopper tried to get a new category in the contract for dairy department heads, but he was unsuccessful.

MEAT DEPARTMENT DID NOT LIKE LOSING CHEESE AND BUTTER TO THE NEW DAIRY DEPARTMENT
Scope and Content Note: Also used to carry tub butter in the meat department. “I think I had a bigger fight when we took that away.”

END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 2

INTRODUCTION

MORE ON TAKING TUB BUTTER FROM THE MEAT DEPARTMENT AND PUTTING IT IN THE DAIRY DEPARTMENT
Scope and Content Note: “Old-time managers didn't get along with their meat department heads.” When Heslip was a manager, he did not interfere with his meat department head at all, but his manager in La Crosse was an “old-timer manager.” The manager was responsible for the meat department losing its tub butter to Heslip's dairy department, but the meat department head blamed Heslip. “We sold a terrific amount of tub butter.” Tub butter also cut with a piano wire.

RELATIONS BETWEEN MEAT CUTTERS AND CLERKS
Scope and Content Note: Meat cutters looked down on clerks; were paid about twice as much; had better hours. “This thing changed.... For years the Clerks...International tried to merge with the butchers' union, and the butchers' union wouldn't have nothing to do with them. They were a poor cousin. Here in '79 they did merge. But you know who came and asked them to merge? The meat, because the clerks in this time had gotten that much clout that it paid the butchers to go along and to merge.” For years there was ill feeling. “Probably that was one of the reasons why the old-time managers didn't like the meat department. Probably the meat department (head) was getting more than the store manager.” When Heslip was going to manager's training school in 1960, a meat cutter there told the personnel people that the meat department heads in Chicago were making more money than store managers. “So the next day we had a meeting on this thing, and he (the personnel man) said, 'I checked into that, and you are right.' But he said, 'Starting Monday, it's going to be different.'”

BY THE TIME HESLIP LEFT THE DAIRY DEPARTMENT IN 1951, THE STORE WAS ALREADY RECEIVING SOME PRE-PACKAGED CHEESE
Scope and Content Note: Sliced processed cheese, brick and longhorn was coming pre-packaged.

SLICED CHEESE
Scope and Content Note: When Heslip sliced cheese himself in the store, it would be piled in steps and wrapped. Not much could be done at one time because piling the slices in steps required handling it with fingers, and this led to mold. Sliced by a meat slicing machine. Unlike the chunk cheese which could be cut several days ahead, the sliced cheese could be sliced only on the day it was expected to be sold.

OUTLINE OF HESLIP'S CAREER AFTER LEAVING THE DAIRY DEPARTMENT
Scope and Content Note: Became produce head, 1951-1952; store manager in Waukon, Iowa, 1952; Winona, Minnesota, produce head, 1952-1954.

ORGANIZING GROCERY STORES IN LA CROSSE
Scope and Content Note: Best arguments were: “One of the biggest things to say, 'This is how much money I make. How much do you make? This is how many hours I work. How many do you work?'”

HOURS OF STORE OPENING IN LA CROSSE
Scope and Content Note: Plopper was concerned that when Piggly Wiggly came to town, it would be open nights. The local contract already had premium pay for evening work and a limit of one night per week that an employee could be required to work. Friday night was the only night any food stores were open in La Crosse. Piggly Wiggly did stay open every evening. Never did have Sunday opening while he was in La Crosse; in fact, never had to work Sundays until he came to Madison in 1969.

ORGANIZING ERNIE GRINDLER'S INDEPENDENT STORE IN LA CROSSE
Scope and Content Note: Grindler had been manager of the A & P when Heslip returned to the store after the war. Opened his own store, and the union organized it. First union meeting after organizing the store, the male employees came and complained that the owner was making them wear white shirts and black ties. “The spokesman for the group, he said, 'Grindler told us, “You guys want to act like them bigshots uptown in them big chain stores, you can dress like them.”'”

ORGANIZING PIGGLY WIGGLY IN LA CROSSE
Scope and Content Note: Before the store was open and the employees were in stocking shelves, the union was in trying to organize them. “The guy came out and moved us out. It was on this causeway between the north and the south side of La Crosse, and we had to stand out on the road to catch these guys as they went to work and came out. Freezing our ears off. We stuck with it. We signed them up; before they even opened the store, we had an election.”

RETAIL CLERK UNIONISM IN LA CROSSE
Scope and Content Note: Local 640 organized all the major food stores in town. Got big enough to have its own business representative. “Now, they're starting to break the union up there.... People are probably disillusioned with a lot of the union goings on now. But the only thing I can say is they've always did me good.”

SETTING UP DAIRY DEPARTMENTS IN OTHER A & P STORES
Scope and Content Note: Probably the dairy supervisor was supposed to be doing it, but Heslip often went to other stores to train a new dairy head or to set up the dairy department in a remodelled store. No extra pay for doing this but did have a good expense account.

COMPARISON OF DAIRY HEAD WORK TO PRODUCE HEAD WORK
Scope and Content Note: More pressure in produce because the cash registers had a department key for produce and “in produce, you were fighting a produce gross.” Gross profit had to be 30% to 35%. “And there again, they'd send out grapefruits 10 for 49 cents and if you could get 10 for 59, fine and dandy, if the company didn't catch you.” This was necessary in order to compensate for shrinkage.

END OF TAPE 3, SIDE 1

INTRODUCTION

PRODUCE DEPARTMENT PUSHED HARD ITEMS BECAUSE THERE WAS SO MUCH SHRINK IN SOFT ITEMS
Scope and Content Note: In order to compensate for shrink, produce department marked up items more than A & P instructed them to do. This was against company policy. If the produce department had a good week and sold a lot of hard items, “you'd come up with too good of a gross, and they'd holler at you. They knew what the hell you were doing.”

PRODUCE DEPARTMENT HAD ABOUT 15% TO 18% OF GROSS SALES, AND MEAT DEPARTMENT HAD ABOUT 25% OF GROSS SALES

GROSS PROFIT FOR THE WHOLE STORE WAS ABOUT 18%, FOR MEAT ABOUT 28%, AND PRODUCE ABOUT 30% TO 35%
Scope and Content Note: In groceries, because there is so little shrink, “you worked on increase in business, because you got a steady gross.” In produce, prices fluctuate greatly.

ORDERING AND PRICING IN THE PRODUCE DEPARTMENT
Scope and Content Note: Heslip did his own ordering. If the warehouse had a big special going, then each store would be told it had to take so much. Otherwise, the produce head determined how much of each item he could sell and ordered that much. Had much less freedom in pricing. “You got a price list. The only time (you could deviate from the price list was)...if you got hung with it. If it's going to go bad on you, you reduce it, and then you worry about raising something else to make up the gross on it.” A & P did not want merchandise to spoil and be thrown away; preferred that it be reduced and sold. On the other hand, A & P did not want other prices raised to make up for those that were reduced. “They want you to watch your ordering so you don't get stuck with it. But if you are stuck with it, get rid of it and get what you can out of it. The first loss is always the sweetest.” The produce head does not get as much money as he deserves, “because you got a hell of a lot to worry about.” Have to keep an eye on competition in order not to order too much of what the competition is featuring at a low price.

PRODUCE DEPARTMENT ADVERTISING
Scope and Content Note: Generally feature what the warehouse is pushing that week, but attention must be paid to the local market and its tastes.

LOCAL AND ETHNIC TASTES
Scope and Content Note: “In Viroqua..., you can take lutefisk..., and you can put that in the paper and you can drive the people in by handfuls. You put lutefisk in the paper in Portage, and they'll look at you like you're crazy. I mean one out of every thousand people know what lutefisk is.” Near Portage there are a lot of muck farms with Mexican labor. Thus, Heslip would carry avocados and other items to suit Mexican tastes.

LOCAL PURCHASES OF PRODUCE HAVE VIRTUALLY DISAPPEARED
Scope and Content Note: “As the laws got more stringent on these insecticides, the A & P backed off.” To protect itself, A & P would have had to have every farmer sign a bond for his produce. When Heslip was in Waukon, he could not carry the products of the local dairy because the dairy owner could not afford the required bond. “So if somebody found a piece of glass in the bottle, you know who's at fault.” At one time purchased a lot of local produce.

HESLIP'S JOB AS MANAGER OF A & P IN WAUKON, IOWA
Scope and Content Note: A & P closed the store after he had been there only eight months. “Here I am, I'm a produce head, and gullible maybe.” Supervisor offered him the job, even though he had never been an assistant manager. “Before I went down there, I never checked in a register. I didn't know how to check out a register.” It is possible the company was just trying to get him out of the store because his brother was assistant manager, and company policy opposed having relatives working in the same store. Store in Waukon was small--about three or four aisles wide, a concession meat market. He did not know at the time, but the lease on the building was up the following fall, and A & P had no intention of renewing it. Very small store, doing only about $1,000-a-week business. Heslip and three part-timers were the entire staff. He worked from before 8 a.m. to about 7 p.m., and until 10 p.m. on Friday. “So I wasn't happy that it was closed, but it was a feeling of relief.”

NEXT JOB WAS AS PRODUCE HEAD AT A & P IN WINONA, MINNESOTA
Scope and Content Note: Was not given a choice of jobs; simply assigned to Winona. Liked the manager there. “You see, I was just glad I had a job.”

WHY WAUKON STORE WAS CLOSED
Scope and Content Note: The Des Moines unit had gone broke, and Iowa was split up among three other units. Waukon was in the Milwaukee unit, but it was very far from Milwaukee. Heslip's groceries were delivered by Gateway Transit, not by company trucks; thus he had to pay greater cartage costs than other A & P stores. “So you see, I was fighting a losing battle.”

WINONA STORE LASTED LONGER THAN A & P WANTED
Scope and Content Note: The store did such good business, it was difficult to close it. “It was the only store they had in the state of Minnesota, and Minnesota's got some weird laws.” For instance, Minnesota had outlawed glass jars for baby food.

END OF TAPE 3, SIDE 2

INTRODUCTION

THERE WERE SOME SMALL A & P STORES LOCATED IN MINNESOTA'S TOURIST AREAS
Scope and Content Note: Closed in the early to mid-1950s. About 1960, A & P was considering buying out a local chain in Minneapolis and St. Paul in order to re-enter that market, but the deal fell through.

HESLIP RETURNED TO HIS LA CROSSE STORE AS ASSISTANT MANAGER IN 1954
Scope and Content Note: His brother, Earl, had gone to manager's training school, and a new assistant manager was needed. The manager of this store had changed while Heslip was in Iowa, but they had worked together when Heslip closed down the Iowa store. The manager liked the way Heslip worked and requested him from the supervisor. One of the requirements to become an A & P manager was to have had produce experience. While assistant manager, Heslip would serve as vacation relief manager at smaller stores in the area.

HESLIP'S MANAGER'S TRAINING
Scope and Content Note: It was a 13-week course, including a week of bookkeeping. Because he had already been a manager and had served as relief manager in small stores where the managers all did their own bookkeeping, he knew the system already. The others in training were all assistant managers from large stores which had their own bookkeepers. “So I spent a week being bored while these guys were all learning something.” One of the exercises was to do the bookkeeping for a week's receipts. “I did the whole thing in my head. The personnel manager said, 'You can't do that.' I said, 'There it is.' He proved it out, and he couldn't find anything wrong. So I said, 'In these small stores, some of them don't even have an adding machine.'”

DUTIES AND RESPONSIBILITIES AS ASSISTANT MANAGER IN LA CROSSE
Scope and Content Note: Made out orders. Supervised the stocking crew. More or less a grocery head. Manager took care of the front end. “If you wanted to get into a big tangle, an assistant manager could tell a meat manager what to do. He does, as a matter of fact, check up on the produce real often.” Like a sergeant in the Army, “the assistant manager runs the store practically.”

CHANGES IN THE LA CROSSE A & P--LESS EMPHASIS ON COURTESY
Scope and Content Note: “Mostly it was getting impersonal.” More of a drive to get work done; courtesy suffered. “The managers took this attitude. Every year when the contract come up and you got another quarter an hour raise, you better be worth that much more. You better work that much harder.” An additional checkout was put in.

CHANGES BETWEEN THE TIME HESLIP FIRST STARTED IN THE GROCERY BUSINESS AND TODAY--NONFOOD ITEMS
Scope and Content Note: “When I first went to work in a grocery store, it was a grocery store. Today, people come through that register and they probably got, out of a $50 order, they probably got $20 of stuff that years ago you didn't buy in a grocery store.” Anecdote about a male customer looking for sanitary napkins before Heslip's store carried them. The man was acting so strange, Heslip thought he was shoplifting. Anecdote about stopping after church to check the store on a Sunday in about 1954 or 1955. Wife was with him and was surprised at all the nonfood items available in the store because he, since he worked in the store, did all the grocery shopping. “Why didn't you tell me you had all this stuff. I could get this here, and I could get that here, and I wouldn't have to go to the dime store.”

MECHANIZATION IN THE LA CROSSE A & P
Scope and Content Note: Never got conveyor belts at the checkouts while he was there. Got gravity-fed roller conveyors for unloading trucks before he came back to La Crosse in 1954. In Winona, where the store warehoused in the basement, there was a motor-driven conveyor for unloading trucks.

WHY HESLIP BECAME A MANAGER
Scope and Content Note: The potential transfers from one location to another did not bother him because, as a child, he moved a lot because his father was a railroad section foreman. The long hours did not bother him either. In fact, he used to sometimes work off the clock. His main reason for agreeing to become a manager at Waukon was more money. “It never occurred to me I should say no.” The prestige argument meant little to him; “I'd rather have a low profile.” After attending manager training school, Heslip returned to his old job and waited for a manager's position to be offered to him. One day, the supervisor asked him whether he really wanted to be a manager or not because he was never asking about it. Heslip said of course he did, and that relocation was not a concern. Shortly after, he was offered the manager's job in Portage.

END OF TAPE 4, SIDE 1

INTRODUCTION

WHEN HESLIP'S STORE IN PORTAGE CLOSED, HE WAS KEPT ON A MANAGER'S SALARY AND USED AS A VACATION RELIEF MANAGER FOR SEVERAL MONTHS, WORKING IN A MADISON A & P BETWEEN RELIEF STINTS
Scope and Content Note: After Heslip had worked in Madison as a regular clerk for awhile, he told the supervisor he did not want to be a manager again. The supervisor asked why, and Heslip responded, “I found out what it's like to work 40 hours a week again.” With night premium in the Madison store, he was making almost as much money as he had made as manager in Portage.

MANAGER TRAINING SCHOOL
Scope and Content Note: Supervisor suggested it to Heslip. Attended in the fall of 1960. He had not asked for it or applied; rather, A & P approached him. Thirteen weeks. First week in Chicago, lectures. A week in meat training. Two more weeks in Chicago. Rest of the 13 weeks spent in Milwaukee. One week in which each day was spent in a different office of the headquarters--personnel, accounting, etc. Tour of the produce warehouse, bakery, coffee roasting plant, grocery warehouse, etc. Then a week back at home store. Then shifted around throughout the Milwaukee unit, supposedly for additional on-the-job training, but actually the stores were just getting some free help, since he was being paid by the central office. “It was kind of a farce, actually. I didn't learn a hell of a lot of anything.” He was about 40 years old, and most of his fellow trainees were much younger. Did learn a few things about meat in Chicago. “But then I had another week's meat training in...Milwaukee that consisted of me bagging up chickens for a whole week. We had a chicken sale.... So, this meat department head could care less. He's got two free guys that he can really work.” Learned how others operate and picked up some ideas on displays, but not much more. The training was probably fine for the younger fellows who had not had much on-the-job experience. The fact that he did not have a high school diploma was never mentioned. “Apparently they were looking for more hands than they were brains. They wanted somebody to work rather than think.”

DESCRIPTION OF THE A & P IN PORTAGE WHICH HESLIP MANAGED, 1961
Scope and Content Note: Five aisles wide; less than a half block deep. Three checkouts. Most of the equipment was old; no refrigeration in produce; sprinkled water on produce to try to keep it fresh; put in a cooler every night. Had just switched to self-service meats, “and we were fighting a losing battle there.” Only store in town with self-service meat; even National and Eagle had service meat. Al Gunther, the butcher, had a sign out saying he was glad to cut to order. “They'd come in and push the buzzer..., and 'I want two pork chops, and I want this and I want that and I want that.' And they'd be standing looking right at them.” Customers reacted pretty well to self-service hamburger, but not to anything that had a bone in it. “They swore to God that the bottom was a bigger bone.” No union in the store. Had a meat department head and another fellow who worked part-time in the meat department and part-time in groceries. Three full-time clerks and five part-timers. Manager did the bookkeeping and checked in the third checkout. Most of the cheese came precut and pre-packaged; still had tub butter. No assistant manager. A & P told him they were going to remodel the store, but aside from painting and some new shelves, not much was ever done.

OLD EQUIPMENT AT HIS PORTAGE STORE
Scope and Content Note: Chest freezers. “You can't even find them in small stores anymore. They were about eight times as big as they should be.... I wouldn't be lying too much if I said at least once a week we had the refrigeration man in there....” Meat department was using an old dairy case for self-service display and was getting a lot of shrink because he had to cut too much meat to make the case look full. Supervisor suggested switching this case to produce where there was no refrigeration. New supervisor came along and reversed the decision because he was “an old meat man.”

IN ADDITION TO ALL HIS OTHER DUTIES, HESLIP HAD TO RUN THE ANTIQUATED PRODUCE DEPARTMENT

END OF TAPE 4, SIDE 2

INTRODUCTION

WHEN BUSINESS GOT BAD, A & P SAID TO CUT EMPLOYEE HOURS
Scope and Content Note: This led to less service, which led to fewer customers, which led to more decline in business.

STORE HOURS IN PORTAGE
Scope and Content Note: 8 a.m. to 6 p.m.; 8 a.m. to 9:30 p.m. on Friday. At one point A & P wanted him to reduce hours of opening and suggested not opening until 9 a.m., but he pointed out that he did a good business between 8 a.m. and 9 a.m. because of farm trade. Farm wives had more time to go shopping in the morning after the children had gone to school than in the afternoon. He suggested cutting the 5 p.m. to 6 p.m. hour.

WHEN HESLIP WAS A & P MANAGER IN PORTAGE, THERE WERE ABOUT FIVE MA AND PA STORES; THERE IS ONLY ONE LEFT NOW

HESLIP'S STORE IN PORTAGE AND THE RETAIL CLERKS UNION
Scope and Content Note: The store in Baraboo was union and occasionally, the business representative would stop at Heslip's store when he was in the area. “I would never fight him because they (unions) only did me good. Managers, if they had half a sense, they wouldn't pay any attention to their head office. The head office hates unions for the simple reason they take a little bit of their authority away. As far as money goes..., you get better help; you get better work out of the help if they are union people.” Heslip did not have a big enough crew to make it worth the union's effort to organize the store. Really only had one full-time clerk in the later years.

DECLINE OF BUSINESS AT PORTAGE A & P
Scope and Content Note: About a month after he took the managership, there was a big dish promotion. The store was real successful during that period and steadily slipped after that. “I blame myself; the easiest one to blame is me. I'm blaming myself, and the supervisor says 'it isn't your fault.'” Business was slipping before Heslip came to Portage, however. Remodelling or new equipment might have helped.

CLOSING OF HESLIP'S STORE IN PORTAGE
Scope and Content Note: The owner had wanted for years to sell the building the store was in.

A & P SUPPOSEDLY OWNED ONLY ONE BUILDING IN THE WHOLE CHICAGO DIVISION--THE COFFEE ROASTING PLANT
Scope and Content Note: “And when I went through that, I could see nobody else would've owned it.” Even the colonial style supermarkets were built and owned by someone other than A & P; A & P signed 99-year leases on these. Anecdote about one of these colonial style supermarkets built in Madison off East Washington Avenue. He spent a half hour looking for it one time; “nobody even knew it was back there.”

RAISES FOR HESLIP'S EMPLOYEES
Scope and Content Note: He could recommend pay increases but had no authority to give them. His people always got pay increases when the union store in Baraboo got them, although the supervisor tried to take credit for it. His employees could work more hours in a day than union clerks could, but split shifts were against company policy.

HESLIP HAD ONE CHECKER WHO WORKED FOR HIM THE WHOLE TIME HE WAS MANAGER IN PORTAGE
Scope and Content Note: He was never in a position where he had to hire any full-time help. She worked 15 years for A & P; rumor is now her pension is to be halted. The employees never put any money into A & P's pension plan; thus A & P can end it.

HESLIP HAD TO FIRE ONLY ONE EMPLOYEE
Scope and Content Note: Technically he laid him off. The fellow owned a farm in addition to working at the store. “I can't fault someone for moonlighting; but I'll say this, I don't believe that man that moonlights is doing either employer a favor. Somebody's going to lose. He isn't putting out 100% one or the other place.” This fellow would take a nap when Heslip was out of the store. The second time Heslip caught him, he laid him off. “I hate to do that. A lot of people get a vicious thrill out of firing somebody.” At one point the supervisor told Heslip a week before Christmas that he had to lay off his part-time butcher. Heslip told the supervisor he would have to do it himself because he would “not tell a guy with two little kids the week before Christmas that he's laid off. He wouldn't do it either, that sucker.”

HESLIP'S METHOD OF HIRING
Scope and Content Note: “I've always been heavy. If a kid comes in and wants to talk about a job, and I say, 'Okay, come on into the back room,' and I start walking. I'll walk back into the back room, and I'm not going to stand back there and wait for him. I don't need him.” When he needed someone, he would call the high school counselor and have him send down about three boys. He would have them fill out applications. The first one to follow up later and ask him if he had made up his mind, “that's the guy I want. The other guys I don't need. They're not that interested.”

THERE WAS NOT MUCH A MANAGER COULD DO TO IMPROVE HIS STORE

END OF TAPE 5, SIDE 1

INTRODUCTION

ANECDOTE ABOUT A COOLER THAT BROKE DOWN AND COULD NOT BE FIXED, AND HESLIP COULD NOT GET PERMISSION TO JUNK IT
Scope and Content Note: “Every year you take an inventory of all the equipment; I had to put it on the inventory every year.” When they finally closed the store, most of the equipment he was using was taken to the junkyard.

ALL THE OTHER STORES IN PORTAGE WERE MORE MODERN

CLOSING OF HESLIP'S STORE IN PORTAGE
Scope and Content Note: The local real estate man had informed Heslip that the building would be sold. The next day, the head of personnel for the Milwaukee unit came to Portage and told Heslip about the closing and said it looked like Heslip would be sent to manage the store in Platteville. The day after that, the president of the Milwaukee unit came by and chewed out Heslip because the store was not adequately stocked. It was not stocked because Heslip had been on vacation for two weeks, and his replacement had done no stocking, leaving all deliveries in the back room. “'I come up,' he said, 'to make up my mind if I'm going to close this store or not. By God, I believe I will.' He's working himself into a rage, see. And I thought to myself, 'Are you nuts?' Now maybe he expected me to say something so he could fire me, but I'm not about to.... I'm worried about a job. So, I said, 'Oh, okay.' ...I never give him a bit of argument.” A & P had talked about building a new store in Portage but never acted on it.

AFTER THE CLOSING, HESLIP BECAME NIGHT MANAGER AT THE HILLDALE A & P IN MADISON
Scope and Content Note: The supervisor offered Heslip a choice of night foreman at the produce warehouse in Milwaukee or night manager in Madison. “I'm not too fond of big cities, period, so I said I'll take Madison; Later I found out I was glad I did. They change night foreman in the produce warehouse about once a week.” This night “manager” position was mainly a paper title; he was paid regular clerk's wages, plus the night premium, plus the premium for carrying the keys.

WORK AT THE HILLDALE A & P IN MADISON
Scope and Content Note: All stocking was done at night until the premium pay got too high. Did a very big business at this store. A good week in Portage had been $8,000. $100,000 “was nothing” in Madison. “They had more in one day down there in one register than I had in a whole week.” When he first went to Madison, he was still on a manager's salary and worked days. Did a little stocking and several other chores. His duties were not set; “I hated it.” Would work at this store and then go out and relief manage. Seriously considered an offer to become grocery manager for the man who owned the Super Valu store in Beaver Dam. “Everything was so fast.” Kept getting shifted from one department to another. Was supposed to be in charge of the frozen food but spent most of his time filling in for others who were taking breaks or lunch hours. “But then I started working nights, and I got to like it. There was nobody around to rush it. We did a lot of work, worked hard and fast, but there was nobody bugging you.” He was in charge of the night crew but had no real supervisory authority. It was a good crew, so he had no problems with this arrangement. Most of the crew were university students.

MECHANIZATION HAS MADE THE WORK EASIER PHYSICALLY, BUT “IT MIGHT BE A LITTLE HARDER ON THE NERVES”
Scope and Content Note: Price marking much easier and quicker. Used to have ink pad and a stamp; now have jump stamps. Price marked on the boxes now so do not have to check price book for every item. “Physically it isn't as hard..., but the pressure is there. You're on the run all the time.”

UNION CLERKS ARE BETTER WORKERS THAN NON-UNION
Scope and Content Note: Heslip currently works in a Super Valu which voted down union representation. “I can see why..., because these guys they got working here wouldn't be working in a union store because about the first day they'd be written up.... Stand around and not working and working slow when they're working; I'm not used to that. That's why I say sometimes I think that...management is wrong in playing down unions.... Union ties them down, I'll grant you that; and makes them toe the mark, and it's good for the guy that's working because management will run all over you if they get a chance. But by the same token, they can get a hell of a lot better caliber of help with a union man.” The union people I know work harder, or they're not around.... The union won't stand still for anybody standing around. Murray Plopper used to stand there night after night saying, 'You give a dollar's worth of work for a dollar's worth of pay. And don't try to cheat the employer out of it, because he deserves it.'”

CLOSING OF A & P STORES IN WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: When the German investors bought into A & P, “we got a lot of propaganda about how much good they were going to do.” At the time they closed the Milwaukee unit, they also closed Pittsburgh, Cleveland and New England. Kansas City was closed the year before that. Nobody ever told him why these units were closed. He has read that the German investors have lost $100 million on A & P. “They don't know what to do.” They tried no-frills stores--few labels and no perishables--which have gone over great in Germany but have flopped in the United States. “They never told us a thing.... Somebody heard it on the radio; word's around the store all that Friday afternoon. I come home Friday night, and my wife said it was on television.”

END OF TAPE 5, SIDE 2

INTRODUCTION

MORE ON THE CLOSING OF A & P STORES IN WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: Came in on Monday morning. The windows were soaped up and signs said all purchases were to be cash. Out of the 40-some stores in the Milwaukee unit, only three were making money, including the one Heslip worked in. Heslip feels one big mistake A & P made was hiring young people from outside the company for top management positions. “They had been moving people around in the higher echelons for five years.”

AFTER A & P CLOSED, HESLIP WENT TO WORK PART-TIME AT JOHN'S SUPER VALU
Scope and Content Note: The owner was interested in Heslip as soon as he heard A & P was closing. I went around to the other stores and put in my application, too. I didn't go to anything but grocery stores, because that's what I know.” Anecdote about applying at Pierce's new supermarket in Portage. His wife had applied there because she was looking for work and had had experience working in his store on Saturdays, usually for no pay. She interviewed and found out Pierce's was paying only $3 an hour. When Heslip filled out his application, he put down that he needed $5 an hour. He did not want Pierce to offer him a job at $3 an hour because he was getting $149 a week unemployment. Applied elsewhere as well. “They all looked at my white hair--they don't tell you that but--they said, 'We'll let you know.'” Eventually hired at $4 an hour to work part-time running the frozen food department at John's Super Valu.

DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WORKING IN UNION A & P AND NON-UNION JOHN'S SUPER VALU
Scope and Content Note: The pace is much slower. “They're not that conscientious as far as stocking the shelves. But now we're talking about part-timers. And most of them are high school boys.”

MORE ON MAJOR CHANGES IN FOOD STORES SINCE HESLIP BEGAN HIS CAREER
Scope and Content Note: The addition of so many nonfood items. “The pressure is on. Competition is a lot keener.”

WISCONSIN'S MINIMUM MARK-UP LAW
Scope and Content Note: Compares sale prices his sister-in-law recently noted in Minnesota to what those same items would sell for in Wisconsin on sale. Law was passed at the time chain stores were started in order to preserve the ma and pa stores.

MORE ON MAJOR CHANGES DURING HESLIP'S CAREER--CUSTOMER COURTESY
Scope and Content Note: “It probably comes back to pressure. You haven't got time to stand and talk to the customer. I'll take time. Not some nonsense, but if a customer comes along and I say, 'Hi, how are you?' and she says, 'I just had a heart attack,' I'm going to stand there and listen to her. Years ago a woman said to me down here--come down the aisle and I'm in a hurry, and I'm making out an order--and I said, 'Hi, Ann, how are you?' She said, 'Bob, are you asking me or are you just being polite?' Now I wish I'd of kept my mouth shut, but I said, 'I'm asking you.' She said, 'Well, here.' And she gave me a big story, see. But at least she felt better. Maybe she come back the next day.”

WHAT HESLIP LIKED MOST ABOUT THE GROCERY BUSINESS
Scope and Content Note: “When I started out, the hardest thing for me was saying thank you. The hardest thing for me was to talk to people. And the thing that I like best about it, that I've grown to like best about it, is meeting people and talking to people.... My wife probably isn't too happy with me being in the grocery business because when I come home, I'm all talked out.”

WHAT HESLIP LIKED LEAST ABOUT THE GROCERY BUSINESS
Scope and Content Note: “You know, I can't think of a thing that I don't like about it. I'll tell you what, between the 7th of April and the 29th of May in 1979 (right after A & P closed), I was very low-spirited.... I missed the business. The thing I'd like least about it is not being able to do it. When I was laid up with my broken hip here, I, geez, I'd give everything if I could go to work. Even just, like yesterday, I worked two hours..., but it was something.”

END OF INTERVIEW