Subseries: Toelle, Raymond E.

INTRODUCTION

BIOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND: YOUTH AND WORLD WAR II SERVICE
Scope and Content Note: Father a cheesemaker. Toelle grew up in Arpin, Wisconsin Rapids and Rudolph, Wisconsin. Graduated from high school in 1941 but was not yet 18 and thus could not get full-time work at first. Took machinist training in summer and finally got a job with Nekoosa-Edwards Paper Company a few months before entering the Air Force in January 1943. Received airplane mechanic and tail-gunner training. Was a tail-gunner on a B-29; flew 24 missions from Saipan to Japan; shot down on 24th mission. Badly burned on his hands escaping from the plane. Spent the rest of the war as a POW. After the war, spent a year in the hospital “getting repaired.”

WENT TO WORK IN WISCONSIN RAPIDS KROGER STORE, 1947
Scope and Content Note: Because of war injuries, could not go back to work in the paper mill; had to have lighter work. Got work with Kroger through a newspaper ad. Worked for this store for three years before it was closed. Kroger was closing all its little stores in the northern part of the state because these stores were outdated, and transportation costs of deliveries were rising.

WORKED FOR NATIONAL TEA IN SEVERAL LOCATIONS
Scope and Content Note: Store in Wisconsin Rapids was new. Went from there to Escanaba, Michigan, and then to Green Bay and Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

GOT INTO THE GROCERY BUSINESS BECAUSE OF HIS WAR INJURY
Scope and Content Note: The work was inside, and “people got to eat.”

NATIONAL TEA, GREEN BAY
Scope and Content Note: Went to Escanaba as a vacation fill-in. Then went to Green Bay, a new store with modern equipment and completely self-service. He was not exactly an assistant manager, but more like a number three man. The store did not “pan out,” despite National's high hopes for it. Red Owl controlled the Green Bay market, and National was not able to crack that market. Because the store was not doing well, Toelle was offered work with National in Milwaukee. Since he was still unmarried and there were greater promotion opportunities in Milwaukee, he accepted the offer. The Green Bay National was a full-fledged supermarket with five checkouts, both service and self-service meats, and a bakery. It closed after about three or four years.

KROGER, WISCONSIN RAPIDS--DESCRIPTION AND DEMISE
Scope and Content Note: When he first went to work there, the store had only two checkouts. It was old and had been there as long as he could remember. Meat and produce were service; one small frozen food chest. Similar to a ma and pa store. It was remodelled during his second year of employment. A third checkout lane was added; produce became semi-self-service (customers picked out their own items, but clerks weighed). Meat still full-service because customers still expected that for meat. Had now a manager, assistant manager (Toelle), a bookkeeper, a produce head and a meat department head. A good week now was $10,000 to $12,000 in sales. Deliveries from the Kroger warehouse were getting slower. Then Kroger truck drivers had a strike, which, because Wisconsin Rapids was a good union town, hurt business quite a bit. The manager left to open his own store in another town. His replacements were younger men and were not Wisconsin Rapids natives. The customers wanted to discuss local affairs when in the store, and these newer managers could not relate to that. Then the head meat cutter, a native of Wisconsin Rapids, left. Business dropped to about $5,000 or $6,000 a week, and the store was closed.

NATIONAL, WISCONSIN RAPIDS--DESCRIPTION AND DEMISE
Scope and Content Note: Toelle then went to work for National in Wisconsin Rapids. A new store, with self-service, four checkouts, and a larger frozen food area. Business was good at first but soon tailed off. Downtown location was very poor--limited parking; located on a main exit from town and people did not stop for groceries; population was moving to little suburban areas. Also, Copps came to town and drove both National and A & P out.

FURTHER DESCRIPTION OF THE KROGER STORE IN WISCONSIN RAPIDS, 1947
Scope and Content Note: Shopping carts and self-service groceries, but produce and meat were service. Three aisles; 30 by 50 feet in size. Two checkers, a manager, Toelle, a part-time stocker, and two men in the meat department. Toelle hired as a stocker but became a sort of assistant manager after awhile, concentrating on ordering and stocking. Open 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. except on Fridays, when the store stayed open until 9 p.m. Closed Sunday. All work accomplished during hours when the store was open. Friday the big day for shopping. Grocery deliveries once a week; produce and meat twice a week. Did not buy produce from Kroger warehouse but from a wholesaler near Oshkosh and sometimes locally.

THE WORK AT KROGER, 1947
Scope and Content Note: Stock was stored under the shelves. Very little business when it first opened in the morning, so stocking was done then. Perishables were stored on ice in a barrel overnight. Ordering, carry outs. Milk man stocked milk. Price changes. Part-time stocker worked only Friday night, Saturday, and when orders came in. Orders usually came Sunday night, and stocking was done largely on Monday and Tuesday, which were slow days. Carried only the Kroger label. Very little variety of merchandise. Like A & P, big on fresh ground coffee, which was one of Toelle's chores. Customers usually bought coffee in three-pound bags; ground individually for each customer. Everything rotated.

CHANGES AT KROGER AFTER REMODELLING
Scope and Content Note: Different shelves; everything stood up instead of lying on side. Checkouts put at the end of the customer's route through the store. Size about doubled. Added a produce head and another checker. Part-time stocker made full-time, and other part-timers were hired.

END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1

INTRODUCTION

MORE ON CHANGES AT WISCONSIN RAPIDS KROGER STORE AFTER REMODELLING
Scope and Content Note: Still worked six days a week, about 50 hours a week. Bookkeeping system more complicated; made one checker a head checker/bookkeeper. Added an office. Toelle was now classified as an assistant manager and went up to about $43 or $45 a week. Had started with Kroger at $27 a week. Annual raises determined by Kroger.

KROGER STORE, RIO, WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: Toelle did vacation managing for Kroger in small-town stores. The store at Rio had only one checkout. “And I was the checker. I was the checker, the meat man, the stocker and everything.” Only he and two women employees. Store was open from 7 a.m. to 6 p.m.; 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. on Fridays.

MORE ON CHANGES AT WISCONSIN RAPIDS KROGER
Scope and Content Note: Was making about $55 a week for about a 55-hour week when the store closed. After the remodelling, they did stocking at night on the night the deliveries came. Would work 24 hours with only a few hours off. Stock still arrived early in the week so the store would be all stocked by the weekend. Frozen food was stocked by the truck driver, as was dairy and bread. Canned goods were still mainly Kroger brand, but would sometimes run big sales on other brands. Kroger “had a very good label.” Actually had two labels, one which said “Kroger” and a second one which was of lesser quality.

TOELLE HIRED BY NEW NATIONAL STORE IN WISCONSIN RAPIDS
Scope and Content Note: When Kroger closed, he went on unemployment. Unemployment office informed him National was coming to town. He was hired, and the personnel man agreed he would not have to work in produce which was very bad on his hands. Also a checker from Kroger was hired by National.

KROGER'S CHANGING PHILOSOPHY
Scope and Content Note: When the manager at Kroger left, the company sent in an outsider, a young fellow. “It didn't affect me, but it affected all the checkers.... He came up there with an attitude that just didn't work in a small town. The help just wouldn't work for him at all.... The friendliness had gone out of the store.” The old manager and all the employees knew all the customers by name and their shopping schedules. Customers trusted the employees. “But things were changing for Kroger's at the time. They were getting hard-nosed.... They had slave drivers more or less..., and that just don't work out.”

COMPARISON OF NATIONAL WITH KROGER IN WISCONSIN RAPIDS
Scope and Content Note: Toelle hired as a stocker. The manager had had a sports shop in Madison. He was friendly, which was National's way of doing business. The manager was there to manage and maintain customer relations. Toelle was hired at $43.50 for a 45-hour week. Store was open 8 a.m. to 6 p.m.; had Sunday and one other day off. Four or five checkers. Self-service meat and a big produce department with refrigeration. Conveyor belts at the checkouts and also for unloading deliveries. Stocked during the day. Stamp-pad markers.

TOELLE'S FIRST JOB WITH NATIONAL IN MILWAUKEE
Scope and Content Note: Went to work at the headquarters store at 37th Street and Villard Avenue. Factory worker clientele. Toelle worked as many hours as he wanted; store was open nights; he sometimes made more money per week than the manager. Had been making $45 a week in Green Bay; got a $10 raise. Even though he was not the assistant manager, he was being paid special development store assistant manager wages. Though closed on Sunday, he often worked Sundays. The district manager liked him. “They didn't worry about payroll in those days.” Had no real specific duties other than taking care of the first aisle which had glass items.

AFTER A YEAR, TOELLE BECAME ASSISTANT MANAGER AT THE 52nd AND CAPITOL DRIVE STORE
Scope and Content Note: Got a raise to $70 a week. Largest National store in the Milwaukee branch. Open every night until 9 p.m.; closed Sunday. Store had a head stocker. Toelle only had to work one night a week, stocking night. Deliveries every day. “A privileged store.... We could call in the morning and get groceries in the afternoon.” Eight checkouts. Big produce department with two aisles. Eight full-time checkers; six or seven part-time stockers.

END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2

INTRODUCTION

MORE ON THE NATIONAL STORE AT 52nd AND CAPITOL DRIVE, AND TOELLE'S WORK THERE AS ASSISTANT MANAGER
Scope and Content Note: Did $25,000 per week business in the 1950s. Had four or five meat cutters and three or four meat wrappers; the meat department was all self-service. “It was a good store.” Toelle's main responsibilities were ordering groceries for the entire store and building displays. The sales manager for National liked big displays, and that store got all the good sales and new products. “So we had a lot of display stuff to do. We had beautiful displays. I used to like to build displays.”

EMPLOYEE TRAINING AT NATIONAL
Scope and Content Note: Toelle received no special training for display construction. Checkers went to National's checker school, located at the main office, for two or three days. They then worked for awhile at a less busy cash register, and the manager or Toelle would keep an eye on them. Had only three department keys at the time.

SUPERVISING DUTIES OF TOELLE AS ASSISTANT MANAGER
Scope and Content Note: Was the boss when the manager was not there. Did not hire but had a say-so in whether an employee made it off probation. Most hiring was handled through the main office, which was on Water Street on “commission row” at first, but later moved to Silver Spring Road where there was a large warehouse. Part-time baggers were hired locally by each store. Never had a problem being a boss and being in the same union with the employees. “All the while I was with National, I had a very good relationship with everybody--with management and with the help. In fact, they used to come to me before they came to the manager a lot of times.” Had more contact with the employees than the manager did.

MORE ON TOELLE'S ASSISTANT MANAGER RESPONSIBILITIES AT THE 52nd AND CAPITOL DRIVE STORE
Scope and Content Note: Ordering responsibilities were the main difference from the manager's duties. Worked closely and well with the manager.

MORE ON DISPLAYS
Scope and Content Note: “We'd make fancy displays. Some of them we didn't even want anybody to buy off of because they looked too good.” Produce head was a good artist, and he would make signs.

EMPLOYEE RELATIONS AT THE 52nd AND CAPITOL DRIVE STORE
Scope and Content Note: “They said in that store there 'you could walk in and walk out, and they wouldn't know if you were working or not because they had so many people coming and going....' We had a real good crew.” The manager was good to work for, and he would sometimes give an employee “an extra 10 to 15 minutes” because he knew the work was going to get done. There was also room for promotion. One of Toelle's stockers later became the branch manager. Toelle worked at this store for seven or eight years.

TOELLE'S EMPLOYMENT AFTER THE 52nd AND CAPITOL DRIVE STORE
Scope and Content Note: Whitefish Bay store for six or eight months. Then 23rd and Capitol Drive for about six months. Then back to 52nd and Capitol Drive, but that store was now suffering because of the construction of Capitol Court Shopping Center which had a big Kohl's store; it closed in the early 1960s. He left before it closed, going to 76th and Hampton Avenue, which was a new, modern, large store in a shopping center. He served as assistant manager there for five or six years. Would sometimes substitute manage during summer vacations, but could remain in the union during those times. Became involved in the Retail Clerks International Association (RCIA) when he first came to 52nd and Capitol Drive. “And after that, they never bothered me to be a manager....” Next, Toelle went to National's newest store, “the elite” store, located in Whitefish Bay. Stayed there for about ten years, at which time the store was closed. This store declined in part because it was located on such a busy street, it was difficult to get in and out of the parking lot. Also, Kohl's built a store about six blocks away.

DESCRIPTION OF WHITEFISH BAY NATIONAL
Scope and Content Note: Panelling, plants, the most modern equipment, a delicatessen, a bakery, and both service and self-service meat. “They were going to cater to the rich....” Much service. “The people couldn't carry out a loaf of bread; we had to carry it out for them.” It went pretty well until a new branch manager came in and decided the store was spending too much money and had to cut the number of employees.

NATIONAL'S TOP STORES IN MILWAUKEE AREA WOULD BE THE STORE FOR SIX OR SEVEN YEARS AND THEN A NEWER AND BETTER STORE WOULD OPEN
Scope and Content Note: Paralleled population movement.

TOELLE'S EMPLOYMENT WITH NATIONAL AFTER THE WHITEFISH BAY STORE
Scope and Content Note: Went to 27th and State Street. Good hours--only one night a week, but open four hours on Sunday. He and the produce head would trade Sundays. A nice, clean store, but in a rough neighborhood. Successful until the street it was on was changed to one way, and that way was out of town. This was followed by urban renewal which left many open spaces in the area. Closed after three years. Then he went to another new store, at 76th and Mill Road. Located in a shopping center; did $85,000 to $90,000 a week business; big, modern, in-store bakery, large delicatessen, large meat department, beautiful produce department, and large frozen food area with upright freezers. This store had a manager, a co-manager, an assistant manager, and a second assistant manager, which was the job Toelle held. “They had no place to put me any more because they were closing up all the stores, and my rate of pay was high.” Spent two years there.

NATIONAL'S DOWNFALL IN THE MILWAUKEE AREA CAME IN THE 1970s WHEN IT GOT INTO TIME-STUDY
Scope and Content Note: Toelle's store at 76th and Mill Road was the target store for the time-study program. “It all looked good on paper, or back at the office...how much money they could save. Each guy had to put so many pieces of merchandise on the shelf. They had a guy who would sit right there and check you out.... I think that's what killed National.” Had cut the help down drastically because of the time-study. “Each store is different. I don't care where you go..., there isn't two stores alike. You can't run them both alike.” The union opposed the time-study because it resulted in shortened hours. National 'found out it just didn't work out after they spent all that money; and they finally quit. They tried to get things. back to the way they were going....” Meanwhile, Kohl stores were booming, giving the good service National had been known for. As business got poorer, National cut help, and the service, price changes, and cleanliness suffered. Toelle's store had always kept up with its work, “but after time-study, we were three to four weeks behind price changes. And you can't make money that way.” Time-study also led to less autonomy for store managers in scheduling employees. This whole time-study program originated with an eastern university. Eastern stores had tried it and discarded it, but others did not learn from those experiences. National actually lost money on the study because the study itself was so expensive.

TOELLE LEFT THE STORE AT 76th AND MILL ROAD
Scope and Content Note: “I was working goofy hours.” Was working midnight to 8 a.m., then one day 4 p.m. to midnight, and then a day 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. “I couldn't see myself with that many years of service with the company to get stuck with this night work.” Could not sleep during the day. “By the time the end of the week came around, I was dead. I couldn't sleep at all. I was getting nervous as heck.” So, he took a job as dairy department head in the National store on Villard Avenue.

END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 1

INTRODUCTION

TOELLE'S JOB AT THE NATIONAL STORE ON VILLARD AVENUE
Scope and Content Note: Worked 7 a.m. to 3:30 p.m. with Saturdays off. Took care of the dairy department and did ordering of frozen foods. Did not have to do much frozen food stocking because deliveries arrived late in the afternoon.

ABOUT 1977, NATIONAL CLOSED ITS MILWAUKEE OPERATIONS, SELLING SOME STORES TO A & P
Scope and Content Note: In preparation for the sale, Toelle's store was remodelled the way A & P wanted it, but the employees did not know the sale was being planned. A & P kept all the National employees in the stores it bought. “We lost nothing,” except one week vacation for one year.

SENIORITY IN NATIONAL WAS CHAINWIDE WITHIN THE MILWAUKEE BRANCH
Scope and Content Note: By non-written agreement between the union and National, an effort was made to keep women who bumped “within decent driving distance or bus service, but with the fellows, it didn't make any difference.”

MORE ON THE TAKEOVER OF NATIONAL STORES BY A & P
Scope and Content Note: A & P bought only five or six of the Milwaukee National stores. National employees in those stores were hired by A & P and meshed into A & P's seniority lists, but employees at other National stores at the time of closing were simply out of jobs.

MAJOR CHANGES IN FOOD STORE WORK DURING TOELLE'S FOOD STORE CAREER
Scope and Content Note: Biggest change was when ordering was computerized. Another change was when merchandise started coming from the warehouse with the price marked on the case.

PRICE CHANGE PROBLEMS
Scope and Content Note: Became a real problem with A & P because cuts in the number of employees made it very difficult to keep up with price changes, which occurred sometimes as often as two or three times a week during the mid to late 1970s. Items shelved with the old price were supposed to have the new price marked on them.

MORE ON CHANGES IN FOOD STORE WORK
Scope and Content Note: Cash registers got more complicated, but they also did more things, and this made it easier for checkers.

MORE ON PRICE CHANGES AT A & P
Scope and Content Note: The warehouse had a system whereby it was assumed a certain sized store would have a certain amount of each item in stock at any particular time. If a price changed, each store was charged the new price for what was presumed to be in stock, whether it actually had that amount in stock or not. “That's why we got into so much trouble.... On the books, we were in trouble because the price changes weren't getting done.... You could be billed for 20 or 30 cans that you never even had in your store.”

A & P WOULD SEND STORES A & P PRODUCTS WHICH WERE NOT ORDERED
Scope and Content Note: “And it never sold. You just kept piling up A & P products.” The older generation “lived by Ann Page,” but the younger generation wanted name brands.

PRICING AT NATIONAL
Scope and Content Note: Shortly before closing in Milwaukee, National closed its Milwaukee warehouse and used the Chicago warehouse for the Milwaukee area. At that time, National went to A & P's system of marking prices on the cases at the warehouse. Before that, while National determined prices centrally, store managers were allowed some discretion, especially in ethnic foods and especially in the “core area.”

NATIONAL'S “CORE AREA” STORES
Scope and Content Note: Business was good, but shoplifting took quite a toll. “They stole as much as they bought.” Had security guards at the stores. “They'd steal right in front of you. They'd dare you to do anything about it. You wouldn't dare touch them because, when you walked out of the store at night, you were the only whitey down there.” At the store where Toelle worked on the edge of the “core area,” a security guard was employed at night. “He was a big, black guy, and nobody would monkey with him. So, we felt we were pretty secure down there.”

STORE MANAGERS NEVER HAD AUTHORITY TO CHANGE PRICES OR RUN SPECIALS ON THEIR OWN
Scope and Content Note: At one time had authority to buy produce locally but still needed permission from the warehouse.

MEAT AND PRODUCE
Scope and Content Note: Meat made the highest profit and produce second. At National, meat had to average 18% profit companywide, but the percentage in the “core area” where cheaper cuts were sold was considerably higher. Similarly, the produce department profit was supposed to be 15%, but the percentage was much higher on greens in the “core area.”

SUNDAY OPENING
Scope and Content Note: Started by independents. At first, featured hot ham, hot rolls and potato salad. “Then, as more stores started opening up, it was just like another day.”

COUPONS
Scope and Content Note: “They were a nuisance.” Slowed up checkers, especially on busy days. Helped business, however. Sent from the store to the warehouse to a clearinghouse where they were sorted.

NATIONAL'S S & H GREEN STAMPS
Scope and Content Note: “That got us going.” Did not cause any problems with checkers because the stamps were dispensed from a machine. Customers would go to Waukegan, Illinois, to redeem the stamps in merchandise, since in Wisconsin, stamps could only be redeemed for cash. The Kohl Company prevented S & H from establishing merchandise redemption centers in Milwaukee because Kohl had department stores with which the redemption centers would have been in competition. “If we would have got a redemption center in Wisconsin, it probably would have changed the whole National scene.”

END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 2

INTRODUCTION

POLYGRAPH TESTS
Scope and Content Note: National did not push their use. “I would say it would probably have been the A & P if anybody because they were more strict with their employees.”

IN THE EARLY TO MID-1960s, NATIONAL AND KOHL WERE DOMINANT IN MILWAUKEE
Scope and Content Note: A & P had many stores but not much of the market.

HOW AND WHY TOELLE BECAME AN OFFICER OF LOCAL 1469, RCIA
Scope and Content Note: At that time, the early 1950s, A & P was the largest chain in town and dominated the union. A woman from National decided National should have more representation in the union and asked Toelle to run for treasurer. Usually the union had no contests for office, but at this election meeting, the National employees packed the meeting, and Toelle beat the incumbent of many years by a substantial margin. Toelle had belonged to the union at the paper mill in Wisconsin Rapids, and his father had also. “After I came down here and I found out the difference between working conditions of a non-union shop....” Main differences in working conditions were hours and “you had a little somebody backing you up.”

LOCAL 1469 (LATER LOCAL 444) STEWARD DUTIES
Scope and Content Note: Sign up new members, collect dues, make sure no one was working off the clock, make sure there were no non-union people doing work in the stores, and fill out monthly reports on the number of hours each employee worked. Because of this latter function, many stewards were store bookkeepers who did this work on company time.

GOOD RELATIONS BETWEEN THE RCIA AND THE FOOD CHAINS IN MILWAUKEE

THE PROCEDURE FOR NEGOTIATIONS
Scope and Content Note: Forms for bargaining suggestions were sent to the members. The leadership would evaluate these responses and also compare good provisions of contracts from elsewhere in the country. At the bargaining table, there would be the local leadership, a rank-and-file representative from each chain, RCIA International representatives, and the chain store negotiators. At first, Local 1469 would always bring in an RCIA vice president to help negotiate. Almost always wound up taking a strike vote “to put a little scare into the companies.” Would hold big contract meetings in the ballroom of the Eagles Club. “They'd turn out a lot of people. That was the only time you saw them--once every three years.” Only got close to a strike one time. Kroger, which was anti-union, was holding up negotiations as the strike deadline drew near. The strike was averted at the last minute when the A & P negotiator announced that his company wanted to settle. Kroger was not big in Milwaukee, but it seemed “to run the show” in negotiations. This was probably because Kroger was so important in Chicago, and the two cities used to pattern-bargain.

THE RCIA AND THE AMALGAMATED MEAT CUTTERS AND BUTCHER WORKMEN (AMC&BW) IN MILWAUKEE DID NOT GET ALONG WELL
Scope and Content Note: The Clerks honored the Meat Cutter picket lines but worried whether the Meat Cutters would do the same. The Meat Cutters struck when Toelle was working in Whitefish Bay. They struck one store from each chain, including Toelle's National. The Clerks honored the picket line but most were able to work in other National stores. It was only a one-day strike.

DIFFICULTIES AT THE 1970 CONTRACT RATIFICATION MEETING
Scope and Content Note: Disruption caused by a vocal and inebriated group from A & P. A & P was having troubles, and these people were fearful of layoff and upset over frequent transfers. They were insisting on a very large pay increase.

MAJOR CONTRACT GAINS OVER THE YEARS
Scope and Content Note: Health and welfare. Pensions, however, were the most important gain for people who intended on making the grocery business a career.

LATE 1950s AND EARLY 1960s WERE BIGGEST GROWTH PERIOD FOR LOCAL 1469
Scope and Content Note: The chains were building many new stores, and all were union.

END OF TAPE 3, SIDE 1

INTRODUCTION

ORGANIZING KOHL'S
Scope and Content Note: Given a deal whereby the terms of the chain contracts would be phased in over a period of years. It was a difficult chain to organize.

ORGANIZING KRAMBO
Scope and Content Note: The Krambo chain had an independent union which was unable to make the same contract gains as Local 1469. So the employees eventually voted to affiliate with Local 1469.

ORGANIZING RED OWL
Scope and Content Note: When Red Owl came to town, many former A & P and National employees went to work for it. “So they were union people..., and they knew how things were in the stores that they had worked in. So, we had no trouble with them at all.”

MERGER TO FORM LOCAL 444 IN 1961
Scope and Content Note: Three non-food RCIA locals merged with Local 1469 to form Local 444. “That was done mainly for those guys to survive.” The other locals did not have very good leadership and did not have much money. “It was done through the International, let's put it that way.” The jurisdictions of these smaller locals were limited. One local had non-retail “drug houses.” Another local had furniture stores.

ORGANIZATION OF DISCOUNT STORES BY LOCAL 1469
Scope and Content Note: “That was organized through the International.” These discount stores were organized in the East, and the International followed them west. The smaller Milwaukee locals did not have the manpower to handle discount stores, so Local 1469 got them.

MORE ON THE MERGER TO FORM LOCAL 444
Scope and Content Note: The smaller locals had only one man on staff--Eugene Weishan. He was a good friend of Local 1469's secretary-treasurer, E.M. Stadelmann, and he also had friends in the International. “So they helped him out.”

MERGER OF LOCAL 444 AND LOCAL 1401 IN 1980
Scope and Content Note: In 1979, when Toelle was still active in the union, the two locals were not even talking about merger. It was probably brought about because of the death of Local 444's two top officers within a year of each other. “And they had to bring somebody in who had some good union experience.” Also, felt they could cut down on some expenses by consolidating the unions.

MORE ON BAD RELATIONS BETWEEN THE RCIA AND THE AMC&BW IN MILWAUKEE
Scope and Content Note: Much of it was jealousy. Meat Cutters had better wages and working conditions. After Michael Burtak became secretary-treasurer of Local 444, the relations improved considerably. “It was the Meat Cutters members mainly that didn't want nothing to do with the Clerks locals here.”

GOVERNANCE OF LOCAL 1469 (AND LATER, LOCAL 444)
Scope and Content Note: The Executive Board pretty much ran things, not the business representatives.

COMPARISON OF MIKE BURTAK AND ED STADELMANN AS LOCAL LEADERS
Scope and Content Note: “Mike did the best, most for us.” Stadelmann was “a hardliner.” Burtak was able to foresee and head off problems.

BURTAK'S ELECTION TO SUCCEED STADELMANN
Scope and Content Note: Challenged by James Romeo, who was mainly out looking for a job. “They had trouble with him. Oh, God. If we'd of had him, I think the whole union would have went haywire.” The local's only female business representative, who had been fired, was Romeo's friend. “Her and Romeo were in a deal there. They were no good.” She was just in it for herself.

FEMALE BUSINESS REPRESENTATIVES
Scope and Content Note: Local 444 had another woman business representative later on, but she did organizing only. Not many women want the job because of the hours. “And a lot of husbands didn't want their women out.”

RCIA 1968 ELECTION AND LOCAL 444
Scope and Content Note: Milwaukee was considered a key to the election “for some reason or other.” Both sides in the campaign did electioneering in Milwaukee. The local ran an extensive campaign for presidential candidate Jim Housewright who had been friends with Stadelmann and was a friend of Burtak. Local 444 voted heavily for Housewright. Anecdote about hoodlum-looking men from St. Louis who came in as poll watchers for the opposition slate. The local had a party after the election and invited the men from St. Louis. They were very surprised how smoothly Local 444 ran. In St. Louis, “They'd burn stores down down there if...the companies wouldn't talk.”

LOCAL 444 AND THE EAGLES CLUB
Scope and Content Note: Stadelmann and Burtak both held high office in the Eagles Club. Also, many important politicians belonged. The Eagles Club was the only centrally located place in town that could handle large crowds. Eagles clubs had problems in the mid-1960s with its all-white membership policy, but blacks in Local 444 had no problems at the Club. “(They would) even go into the bar with us after meetings and stuff. Nobody had any trouble.... Nobody complained at all.”

GRIEVANCES AND WRITE UPS
Scope and Content Note: All the chains had “shoppers.” No one knew when they were coming. The union did not object to chains using shoppers. The union would not object to store discipline unless it was unreasonable. “We had very little trouble with people.... With the amount of people we had in the union..., we had very little grievances...until towards the end when things were getting tighter....” Then managers began “suspending people for piddly-annie stuff that didn't amount to nothing....” Discharges were about the only grievances that went to arbitration. Did have troubles with Sentry on the issue of long hair and white shirts.

END OF TAPE 3, SIDE 2

INTRODUCTION

LONG HAIR AND WHITE SHIRTS AT SENTRY FOODS
Scope and Content Note: The union agreed to permit Sentry to require the wearing of white shirts if Sentry would pay for them. Also came to agreement on the issue of long hair and beards--permitted if kept clean and trimmed. Sentry pushed these issues, but they did not go to arbitration. “But in the store, the union figured that you should be neat. You're working around people.”

LOCAL 444 EXECUTIVE BOARD DETERMINED WHETHER A CASE SHOULD GO TO ARBITRATION
Scope and Content Note: “They all had store experience.... You could tell if somebody was giving you a line....”

WAGES AND PRIDE IN FOOD STORE WORK
Scope and Content Note: “When I first started, we were like a ditch digger..., about the lowest you could get.” Later, as wages climbed, the public still figured anyone working in a grocery store must have had a second job; they did not realize how high the wages had become. With higher wages came greater pride in the work. “There was nothing nicer than to come in in the morning and see a store all set up....” Because of pride in the work, Toelle would sometimes work off the clock, but that time would usually be made up later by going home early.

THE WORK DID NOT GET HARD FOR TOELLE UNTIL HIS LAST YEAR
Scope and Content Note: This was because A & P was cutting back on employees. His store was doing $100,000 a week business when A & P bought it. That required a large work force, but A & P cut the number of employees and forced the remaining people to work much harder. “It was no pleasure any more going to work because you knew you weren't going to get done. No way. And you were going to get bawled out because things weren't getting done. And the district managers were terrible.”

UNION REACTION TO THE SPEED UP
Scope and Content Note: The workers would call in the union when the managers and district managers were pushing time too hard. Things would improve for a couple weeks and then revert. “They were noted for that.” Toward the end, A & P did not want stockers to even say hello to the customers because that would waste time. Toelle feels A & P knew it was going to close and hoped that being rough on the workers would force them to quit, thereby avoiding the inevitable severance pay and unemployment compensation.

WHY THE MAJOR CHAINS CLOSED IN MILWAUKEE
Scope and Content Note: “Kroger didn't make it in Milwaukee here because of the union. They were anti-union.” Kroger had left Milwaukee once before because of difficulties with its truck drivers and their union. Kroger came back by buying out Krambo. “National...had bad management toward the end.” Was making money in Milwaukee, but not in Chicago, “so they just closed the whole works up. After they closed, they were sorry they closed it because they said they should have left Milwaukee open because they had a good operation here in Milwaukee.” A & P pushed their own products too much and also pushed large quantities, especially in the meat department, which was very inconvenient for people without large families. When A & P closed, most of their workers were former National employees because A & P's big stores were the ones it had bought from National.

SENTRY AND KOHL'S PICKED UP MUCH OF THE BUSINESS ABANDONED BY KROGER, NATIONAL AND A & P
Scope and Content Note: Total membership of Local 444 is probably down from its peak, however.

LOCAL 444 INDOCTRINATION FOR NEW MEMBERS
Scope and Content Note: Had to come to a union meeting for initiation. “Tell'm what the company expects and what the union expects.”

MEMBER PARTICIPATION IN LOCAL 444
Scope and Content Note: When Toelle first came to Milwaukee, whole stores would go to the union meetings. The National stores used to be really close-knit, holding joint parties, etc. A & P was similar.

PART-TIMERS
Scope and Content Note: Part-timers were much less likely to attend union meetings. They were mainly working to get through school or for a second income. When Toelle first came to Milwaukee, baggers were about the only part-timers. Today there is a trend for workers to try to get more hours, to aim toward full-time employment in the stores.

CUSTOMER RELATIONS
Scope and Content Note: “We're getting out of that public work now. You don't have the contact with people now anymore like you used to. The only ones that do are the checkers really, and these new stores with the scanners, you don't have it.... They push you through and you're done.” Customers never see the butchers anymore. Stocking is done at night. Produce is about the only place outside of the checkouts where clerks and customers still meet.

THE VOLUME IS GREATER AND THERE ARE MANY MORE ITEMS, BUT THE SHELVES ARE STILL STOCKED PRETTY MUCH THE SAME TODAY AS THREE DECADES AGO

END OF INTERVIEW