Subseries: Dubinski, Henry

INTRODUCTION

BIOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Dubinski came to work full-time for the Amalgamated Meat Cutters and Butcher Workmen (AMC&BW) Local 73 in Milwaukee in 1958. He has been secretary-treasurer since 1965. Born in Detroit, Michigan, in 1921.

REMINISCENCES OF DEPRESSION YEARS
Scope and Content Note: In 1931, neighborhood billboards with “Re-elect Hoover” were all defaced. He learned about politics reading editorial pages as a newsboy. He looked up “politics” in a dictionary and found two definitions: “The science of government,” and “the manipulation of government.” “That was some sort of benchmark for me ever since.” Recalls seeing Franklin Delano Roosevelt in Cadillac Square on Labor Day. He saw “mounted police using clubs on workers when they were trying to organize.”

CONTINUATION OF BIOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: His first job was with A & P in 1937, the same year he joined the AMC&BW. He was in the service during World War II. Owned his own store in northern Wisconsin briefly after the war, then began work for A & P in Milwaukee in 1952. Dissatisfied with how Local 73 was being directed, he ran for the vice presidency and was elected. He then became business representative and was elected secretary-treasurer when Harry Sutherland retired from that position (in 1963).

MORE ON HIS FAMILY HISTORY, THE 1936 SIT-DOWN STRIKE, AND OTHER SOURCES OF HIS BELIEF IN THE IMPORTANCE OF UNIONS
Scope and Content Note: He has one sister. His father was a tool-and-die maker in General Motors' Fisher Body plant. He took apples and sandwiches to his father, who was inside the plant during the strike, and tossed them through the window in a weighted paper bag which had his father's name on it. A “dedicated union member,” his father told him that “F.D.R. could do no wrong.” The city and his neighborhood were solidly pro-union. “I don't think I ever met a Republican until I went into the Army.”

FIRST JOBS WITH A & P AND KROGER
Scope and Content Note: He worked in the meat department, waiting on customers and cleaning up. There were 12 meat cutters in the store. Started work at 25 cents an hour and learned the trade by asking questions because there was no formal apprenticeship. Seven months later, he got a job with Kroger at 45 cents an hour. He worked from 7 a.m. until 6 p.m. Monday through Wednesday. On Thursdays, he worked from 7 a.m. until 7 p.m., and Fridays and Saturdays from 7 a.m. until 10 p.m. He learned how to break down quarters of beef mostly “by trial and error,” although a Kroger manager taught him much. He became a meat department manager at a Kroger store at age 20, shortly before entering the Army. When he first entered the trade, he had planned to work long enough to earn enough money for college, but he never was able to do it.

DURING THE WAR, DUBINSKI WAS A MEAT AND DAIRY INSPECTOR

AFTER THE WAR, HE TOOK OVER HIS FATHER-IN-LAW'S STORE FOR A FEW YEARS

GREAT CHANGES IN FOOD STORES JUST BEFORE WORLD WAR II
Scope and Content Note: Not much difference in meat departments after the war, except that shortages and rationing stamps continued. But before the war, “the little stores became big stores.” These stores were called “supermarkets.” Grocery departments became self-service, though meat departments had service departments.

WOMEN WORKED AS MEAT CUTTERS DURING AND JUST AFTER THE WAR
Scope and Content Note: He worked with some women meat cutters for a few years after returning from the service. Few women remained as meat cutters by the time self-service meat counters were introduced in the 1950s.

HOW HE BECAME BUSINESS REPRESENTATIVE FOR LOCAL 73
Scope and Content Note: When he became business representative in 1958, Harry Sutherland was secretary-treasurer, and Paul Hampel was president and business representative. Hampel was defeated as president in a re-election bid and left for a job in the AMC&BW's Education Department. The secretary-treasurer and president became full-time business representatives. The union grew in size and strength after World War II.

WHY HE CHALLENGED LOCAL 73 LEADERSHIP
Scope and Content Note: He thought more organizing was needed, and “better contracts could have been negotiated” and administered, especially “handling of grievances.”

HIS WORK AS A BUSINESS REPRESENTATIVE IN 1958
Scope and Content Note: Collecting dues “probably took 80% of our time.” Winning dues check-offs in the late 1960s enabled union officials to work on organizing and grievances. He serviced some 100 stores. Another business representative was added to the staff when Oshkosh, Appleton and other smaller locals merged with Local 73. He could visit 10 or 12 Milwaukee stores in one day, though perhaps 7 or 8 when just collecting dues.

LOCAL 73 WAS IN RECEIVERSHIP FROM 1960 TO 1963
Scope and Content Note: He thinks the primary cause was that grievances were not processed. Business representatives Dubinski and Paul Fricke passed grievances to Harry Sutherland, who failed to press them through step three of the grievance procedure. Members became frustrated when grievances were not resolved by 30 to 60 days.

END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1

INTRODUCTION

MORE ON LOCAL 73's RECEIVERSHIP
Scope and Content Note: Another reason for the receivership was that Harry Sutherland used money from the strike fund to operate the union instead of asking the membership for a dues increase. Sutherland did not use funds for himself. So a group within the union, including Dubinski, asked for a friendly receivership.

HOW THE UNION WAS OPERATED DURING RECEIVERSHIP
Scope and Content Note: International Vice President Ray Wentz became deputy receiver. Wentz appointed Emil Schuette from Sheboygan to manage the union. When Schuette died about 18 months later, Wentz appointed Kenneth Nolte to replace him. The membership did not like Nolte's appointment, but “we tolerated it.”

DUBINSKI OPPOSED NOLTE FOR SECRETARY-TREASURER POSITION IN 1963
Scope and Content Note: Dubinski won by a two-to-one margin. “The issues in that election were that Ken Nolte did not have the experience or the ability.” Dubinski's slate included Alex Mitchell, who was elected president, and a candidate for every office. Nolte's slate was not that complete. “It was the biggest political campaign we ever had. I think about 80% of the members voted.” Union elections formerly were held at a union meeting. Dubinski insisted--”and prevailed”--that this election be conducted by mailed ballot. He emphasized the need for democratic participation. A letter mailed to members on behalf of Dubinski's slate called for, among other things, “a complete financial report at every meeting,” reports from the executive board at general membership meetings, faster processing of grievances, uniform contracts, and a stewardship system.

INFLUENCE OF HIS ATTENDANCE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN SCHOOL FOR WORKERS
Scope and Content Note: He attended the School for Workers for four semesters before running for union office. Jack Barbash, who taught there, and his readings and education generally helped prepare him for union leadership.

CHANGES IN LOCAL 73 PRESIDENTS SINCE HE BECAME SECRETARY-TREASURER
Scope and Content Note: Alex Mitchell was the first president, then William Danielson, then, when Local 73 merged with Madison's Local 502, Danielson stepped down to enable Eugene Meyers to become president. When Meyers retired, Paul Fricke became Local 73 president.

MERGERS OVER THE YEARS HAVE ADDED CONSIDERABLE GEOGRAPHICAL TERRITORY AND MEMBERS TO LOCAL 73's JURISDICTION
Scope and Content Note: The union now has jurisdiction over the entire state except for the extreme northwest corner and Racine and Kenosha counties. Membership has increased from about 1,000 in 1958, to 4,500 today. The merger with Madison added about 1,000 to Local 73's numbers. Another 1,000 was added when sausage and packinghouse Local 248 merged with Local 73. Local 248s long packinghouse strike resulted in its membership declining from 2,200 to 1,100. Reasons for the mergers: “Better service, greater strength, efficiency.”

HE BEGAN WORKING FOR UNIFORM CONTRACTS WHEN HE BECAME SECRETARY-TREASURER
Scope and Content Note: He thinks the union has been “98% successful” in obtaining uniform contracts. Unions in some southern states were never to establish uniform contracts. Locals in Kenosha and Racine counties negotiated jointly with Local 73. Paul Whiteside, the local president there, was sometimes able to obtain even better contracts than Dubinski negotiated.

BLACKS DID NOT BECOME RETAIL MEAT CUTTERS IN MILWAUKEE UNTIL THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT OPENED MORE OPPORTUNITIES
Scope and Content Note: Blacks were prominent in packing houses. Few blacks work in food processing plants, which are located in more rural areas, and in wholesale companies.

WOMEN AND BLACKS ARE PLAYING MORE PROMINENT ROLES IN UNION ACTIVITIES

MOST UNION MEMBERS HAVE WORKED FOR CHAIN STORES, ALTHOUGH MANY CHAINS HAVE LEFT MILWAUKEE AND WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: In 1958, “about 80% of our membership worked for chains.” Most were national chains, though Kohl's (a Milwaukee-based organization) grew quickly throughout the state. A & P, Kroger, National, Jewel have all closed their stores. Now, Sentry and Kohl's are the major chains in the city and state. “Sometimes it appears to me like it's almost a manipulated game of musical chairs.” Most have left because the stores which remained were operated better. Kohl's and Sentry especially out-performed other chains. The local chains were managed better. Meat cutters who lost their jobs due to store closings formerly were able to find jobs, but it is much more difficult to do so now.

THE UNION SELDOM GRANTED CONTRACT CONCESSIONS TO INDEPENDENTS AND SMALLER MARKETS
Scope and Content Note: His philosophy has been that labor costs should be relatively fixed from employer to employer to avoid giving a competitive edge. Some consideration was given to meat markets employing “counter-hoppers”--people who waited on customers but were prohibited from cutting meat unless they were paid the union scale.

END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2

INTRODUCTION

SELF-SERVICE MEAT COUNTERS WERE INSTALLED IN MOST MILWAUKEE STORES BETWEEN 1950 AND 1955

HOW SELF-SERVICE MEAT COUNTERS AFFECTED MILWAUKEE'S APPRENTICESHIP PROGRAM AND THE WORK OF MEAT CUTTERS
Scope and Content Note: The formal apprenticeship program was ending when he became active in Local 73. “There was not enough interest from the employer's side.” The union's position was that employers could train meat cutters in stores if they so desired, but that in 36 months, the apprentice moved into the journeyman wage scale regardless of how well trained he was. He thinks store management wanted meat cutters trained in stores because self-service meat counters altered the traditional work of meat cutters. Instead of having to learn all meat-cutting tasks, meat cutters now became specialists: one worked on fish, another on poultry, another on beef, another on pork and lamb. “I've seen journeymen meat cutters who worked for A & P for 20 years and only worked on chickens.” “So they became mechanics.” “Today, journeymen, as we used to know them, are extinct. I don't think that 5% of our journeymen remaining today would know how to skin a calf.” Many others do not know how to break down a carcass into primal cuts because many stores receive meat only in primal cuts. There are proportionately fewer meat cutters than in previous years. Although the International had once urged locals to discourage young men from becoming apprentices, this was not done locally to Dubinski's knowledge. Store managers often preferred to train their own apprentices because companies had different ways of cutting and merchandising meat.

THERE HAVE BEEN FEW WOMEN MEAT CUTTERS IN MILWAUKEE
Scope and Content Note: The trade has been dominated by men. Contract provides that openings for journeymen meat cutters must go first to current employees who are not yet journeymen. Perhaps not more than five women have applied for apprenticeships during the last ten years in areas under Local 73's jurisdiction. Today, there are only two women “journeywomen.” Employers do not discriminate. “It's not appealing to women.” “It's hard work, and a woman would have to be pretty robust.” Even today, primal cuts are difficult to lift, weighing as much as 130 pounds.

WOMEN AND SELF-SERVICE MEAT COUNTERS
Scope and Content Note: Dubinski confirms an account given by Paul Hampel in another interview for this project that Harry Sutherland had urged Local 73 to insert language dealing with job duties in self-service meat departments in the 1950 contracts after seeing such departments operating in Detroit, and before they were introduced in Milwaukee. Language specifically defining the kind of work to be done by meat wrappers and deli employees was inserted “because of the wage structures. We didn't want the duties of the journeymen to be eroded.” Women could be employed to do any kind of meat department work as long as they were paid journeymen wage rates. In the 1950s and 1960s, he often saw women deli workers cutting beef who were not paid union scale. He had to insist they either be paid journeymen rates or not be allowed to cut meat.

THERE WAS MUCH CONCERN IN THE 1950s ABOUT UNION JURISDICTION IN STORES
Scope and Content Note: Lengthy clauses detailed which cuts of meat could be sold by which employees during certain store hours. This also reflected concern about the effects of self-service meat departments. Numerous grievances resulted from these concerns. Poultry used to arrive at stores with head and feet still on. Then they came eviscerated, “oven-ready.” Years ago, meat department employees made overtime wages during Thanksgiving week; now, many are given vacations that week because turkeys enter the stores ready for sale. “That was a tremendous erosion of jobs on the store level.”

DELI DEPARTMENTS ASSUMED ABOUT 25% OF WORK FORMERLY DONE BY MEAT DEPARTMENT PERSONNEL
Scope and Content Note: Contract language specifying that “women may be employed in delicatessen” departments reflected this shift and the need to protect remaining meat department jobs, and also led to union demands for health and welfare and other benefits to compensate for shifting work formerly done by meat department employees to another department.

THE UNION WON HEALTH INSURANCE FOR ALL MEMBERS IN THE 1961 TO 1963 CONTRACTS
Scope and Content Note: Only A & P had health and welfare provisions for employees when he came to Milwaukee. To get it for all members, employees had to take a pass on wage increases. A & P employees, which comprised about one-half of Local 73's membership, balked because they already had health insurance. “And we had to lecture on fundamental unionism.” The vote, at a “tumultuous” meeting, was very close and “tilted” on the strength of talks by “three or four good unionists from A & P who were meat managers.”

SELF-SERVICE MEAT COUNTERS CREATED OPPORTUNITIES FOR THE INDUSTRY AND THE UNION BUT ALSO FORCED SMALLER INDEPENDENTS OUT OF BUSINESS
Scope and Content Note: Contract provisions expanded enormously during the 1960s, in part because of self-service counters, across the nation.

DELI EMPLOYEES BECOME UNION MEMBERS
Scope and Content Note: Kohl's was a national leader in installing delicatessen departments. Max Kohl got Local 73 Secretary-Treasurer Harry Sutherland to agree that full-time deli workers would become union members, but that part-timers would not. Sutherland did not insist on a ratio of full-time to part-time workers. The wage differential between full- and part-time deli workers was vast. Dubinski tried to organize all deli employees when he became a local officer. It was difficult. “Kohl fought us.” It took a year to organize them. “I'll never forget that.” “It was not unusual for us to talk to one girl five times. We would talk to her three times, and then we felt (if) we couldn't convince her, we then would go and talk to her parents. For several months, every night, I was making house calls.” Two teams worked on this drive. Dubinski worked with Phil Paar, a volunteer organizer from the Fur and Leather Department in Chicago. Ken Nolte and Emil Schuette comprised the other team. Some women feared they would be fired if they signed a union card. Some parents were anti-union. Kohl threatened to put in self-service delis.

END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 1

INTRODUCTION

MEAT WRAPPERS
Scope and Content Note: Meat wrappers automatically became union members and did not have to be organized. Only 1% or 2% of wrappers are men. There is little turnover among wrappers, or among grocery store employees generally. Piggly Wiggly employees are not at the top of wage scales because of low turnover.

NUMEROUS PROGRESSION PERIODS IN CONTRACTS AFFECTING MEAT WRAPPERS WERE ADDED AT EMPLOYER INSISTENCE
Scope and Content Note: “It was to keep the cost down.” Union compromised on this. Early 1950 contracts contained six progression periods within the first two years. “We also felt--I cannot just blame management--that people should be rewarded for staying.” Some wrappers and deli employees upstate make more than their husbands.

HE DOES NOT THINK EMPLOYERS WANT TO ELIMINATE WOMEN FROM MEAT DEPARTMENTS
Scope and Content Note: “I hear that all the time.” But he thinks stores merely “want to get meat wrapped at the minimal amount of cost.” Men also tell him they fear women will replace them in meat departments.

HE SEES MANY ADVANTAGES IN CENTRAL MEAT-PROCESSING PLANTS
Scope and Content Note: Workers in these plants “break the carcass down into primal and sub-primal cuts.” They also remove certain bones. Trimmings are freshly ground there instead of in a store several days later. Quality control is better. Stores can order certain cuts of meat that sell better in their neighborhoods instead of having to buy entire carcasses. “If I were a superintendent of an operation of this sort, it's very likely I would go into a centralized cutting facility....” Nationally, perhaps 40% of major employers had such plants.

THE UNION'S RESPONSE TO CENTRAL MEAT-PROCESSING PLANTS
Scope and Content Note: “As long as they are in our jurisdiction, we don't care. If they are not of our jurisdiction, then we scream to high heaven.” The union forbids importation of boxed beef unless the employer had its own plant in the area under Local 73 jurisdiction. Job classifications are somewhat different in a central processing plant. Ninety percent of employees in the Kohl's plant make journeymen wages, a scale higher than most plants in the nation.

DUBINSKI DIFFERS WITH THE INTERNATIONAL ON ALLOWING KROGER'S CENTRAL MEAT-PROCESSING PLANT TO OPERATE IN MADISON
Scope and Content Note: Local 73 filed an unfair labor practices complaint against Kroger because the company operated its plant in Madison, Wisconsin, which was outside the local's jurisdiction and in violation of contract provisions prohibiting trucking in of meat in such cases. International Retail Director Marvin Hook opposed Dubinski's position. “He thought I was obstinate in not permitting them to bring that product here.” Kroger management tried to skirt Dubinski because of Hook's position. “I wouldn't succumb to that.” The International did not oppose central meat-processing plants as long as locals had jurisdiction over them. The plant was closed at about the same time as Kroger closed its Wisconsin stores.

HOW THE UNION STRIKES A BALANCE WITH AUTOMATION
Scope and Content Note: Thinks the union cannot stand in the way of progress, but that jobs have to be protected as best as possible. “We're not going to stop automation. But I think in America we are very remiss with what happens when people are displaced.” Some displaced European workers are quickly retrained. The problem with new machines and production process is not knowing how many will lose jobs. Management should pass along some of the savings arising from automation to customers. “We still don't know, oftentimes, how much and how well we can trust management, because management changes.” Job displacements from automation have not been as great in the food retailing industry as in others.

DIFFICULTIES IN TRYING TO MEASURE PRODUCTIVITY IN RETAIL MEAT DEPARTMENTS
Scope and Content Note: Some time-study people from the International talked to him about productivity. “To me, they sounded incoherent. I think they rambled just because they were being paid.” Different neighborhood buying habits make it very difficult to measure productivity. “It takes much more work to work in a suburban store than it does in a ghetto area.” People in ghetto areas buy “offal” meat products (a trade term), including liver, kidneys, pig's feet, leg bone, and other items requiring little processing. Wealthier neighborhood residents buy products requiring “the maximum amount of processing.” Other stores fall somewhere in between. Meaningful comparisons among stores based on pounds per man hour or pounds per dollars could not be made. It may require only five man hours to sell 1,000 pounds of canned hams, but 50 hours to sell that much beef. When he was in the industry, sales per employee hour varied from $15 to $30; clerk-hire-rate was from $4 to $10.

THE INTERNATIONAL'S PERFORMANCE AND COST EVALUATION (PACE) PROGRAM TRIED TO ESTABLISH A WORK STANDARD IN MEAT DEPARTMENTS
Scope and Content Note: Guy Pinney was in charge of the program. It was not very successful.

STORES TRY TO INCREASE PRODUCTIVITY BY CUTTING HOURS
Scope and Content Note: Weekly work schedules in chain stores sometimes are drawn up by central offices. Work loads often fluctuate. “I've seen people in extreme stages of exhaustion.”

END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 2

INTRODUCTION

ATTEMPTS TO INCREASE PRODUCTIVITY BY SALES
Scope and Content Note: These sometimes do not work if meat has been “overcut,” and a sale fizzles because of poor timing or bad weather. In such cases, meat may have to be re-ground or re-packaged, which adds more work and distorts productivity figures.

STORES HAVE USED TIME-STUDY MEASUREMENTS
Scope and Content Note: Sentry and Kohl's have used them in the past, but he has never seen results of such studies. “I conclude that at best, they are inconclusive.”

THE UNION'S ROLE IN EMPLOYEE EVALUATION PROCEDURE
Scope and Content Note: Store managers occasionally will send a constructive advice form to the union, complaining about an aspect of an employee's job performance. The union will send a business representative to talk with store managers, other employees, and the employee in question. There have been “extremely rare” cases of arbitration about such matters. Sometimes a person's age affects productivity. In a few cases, early retirement arrangements were made.

MANAGEMENT COMPLAINTS ABOUT LOW PRODUCTIVITY INVOLVE CASES IN WHICH WORK TASKS CAN BE MEASURED BY A STANDARD, AND CASES IN WHICH IT CANNOT

CONSTRUCTIVE ADVICE FORMS ARE NOT AS WIDELY USED AS THEY ONCE WERE

MOST COMPANIES ISSUE PERSONNEL MANUALS
Scope and Content Note: Stores sometimes do not enforce company policies for a number of years and then begin to do so selectively. “Management, by and large, is not the culprit that some workers think it is.”

MOST SERIOUS VIOLATION OF UNION REGULATIONS IS WORKING OFF THE CLOCK

UNION POLICES ITS REGULATIONS BY PEER PRESSURE
Scope and Content Note: Steward system exists in larger plants, but it does not work well in stores. Clerks are more successful with stewardships because there are more clerks in a store.

MEAT DEPARTMENT HEADS OFTEN “ARE THE BEST UNION PEOPLE”
Scope and Content Note: People who worked for him when he was an A & P meat department manager became his election committee when he ran for union office. Some asked him how he could be a union officer and a meat department head at the same time. “And I merely answered them, 'I give Caesar what is due Caesar, and I give God what is due God.' And it usually worked.”

SLOWDOWNS IN MEAT DEPARTMENTS ARE “RARE”
Scope and Content Note: It is difficult to engage in slowdowns because it is so easy to see workers doing it, and workers might be reprimanded. He has known workers to respond to work problems by not filleting as well, or by not trimming meat properly. “Sloppy performance.” These kinds of work actions have most often occurred because of “harsh” managers, or in cases which are not grievable. Some successful grievances have been filed against overbearing meat department managers.

MOST COMMON FORM OF GRIEVANCES
Scope and Content Note: Most concern unpaid holidays or unpaid overtime. “Grievances as far as working conditions per se are minimal,” especially as compared to packing houses and central meat-processing plants.

GREATEST UNION MEMBERSHIP GAINS OCCURRED BETWEEN 1945 AND 1955 AS A RESULT OF SUPERMARKET GROWTH
Scope and Content Note: The International had little to do with helping to organize retail meat cutters in Wisconsin. Most of the organizing was done by locals.

STATE MEAT CUTTERS COUNCIL WORKS ON POLITICAL AND LEGISLATIVE MATTERS
Scope and Content Note: The council includes retail, wholesale, fur and leather, and other units. Coordination of contracts is done between Local 73 and the Kenosha local.

THERE IS DISCUSSION ABOUT MERGING THE MEAT CUTTERS AND CLERKS COUNCILS SOMETIME THIS YEAR

DUBINSKI'S RELATIONSHIP WITH THE INTERNATIONAL HAS CHANGED FROM AN “ADVERSARY” ONE TO FRIENDLY
Scope and Content Note: He differed often with the International during his first ten years as secretary-treasurer and now thinks some of his opposition to the International's policies was “well founded,” and some was not. Such problems were not unique to his local. Some problems arose because International policies were not explained to him clearly enough. For example, the International's opposition to establishing a pension program, which he wanted, stemmed not from the International's opposition to the idea, but from its desire to delay demanding the program until it could be coordinated among all locals. He learned of the International's reasoning in this matter only later. He opposed the International's position then, but now thinks it was “valid.” It did displease him because California had had a pension program for five years, because his own members were prepared to begin one, and especially because International officers had had a program established for ten years.

CONTRACTS HAVE TO BE APPROVED BY THE INTERNATIONAL
Scope and Content Note: Formerly, International representatives participated in major negotiations, thus making formal International approval unnecessary. International approval was required for strikes.

HE NOW HAS AN “IDEAL” RELATIONSHIP WITH THE INTERNATIONAL AND PARTICIPATES IN SEVERAL UNION FUNCTIONS
Scope and Content Note: He is a member of the International's Advisory Board, is president of the state council, and was president of the Midland Joint Council.

PURPOSE AND ACTIVITIES OF THE MIDLAND JOINT COUNCIL
Scope and Content Note: Founded about 12 years ago by Kansas City's Carl Nothnagel, Joe DeFontaine from Omaha, and Dubinski, their purpose was to counter the political power of eastern Meat Cutter locals at International conventions. Midland's membership grew from 3 to 120 locals. He was president for two terms. “When we first organized, certain elements within the International called us a rump group (not chartered). But we survived. And we still continue.” “I think we brought some equilibrium to the total International union. I do believe they listen to us more.” His own relationship with the International has improved since the Midland Joint Council was established.

END OF TAPE 3, SIDE 1

INTRODUCTION

MORE ON THE MIDLAND JOINT COUNCIL
Scope and Content Note: The merger between Meat Cutters and Clerks “has diminished the effectiveness of the Midland Joint Council because of the numbers.” Even without the merger, the Council has achieved what it set out to do, and so it is not as needed as before. He thinks the Council has helped lessen the number of arbitrary trusteeships imposed on locals. “We wanted to protect our autonomy.” The merger has lessened the autonomy of locals. He is pleased with the vice presidents in the new merged organization--the United Food and Commercial Workers Union (UFCW).

RELATIONSHIP WITH CLERKS HAS PROGRESSED FROM BAD TO GOOD
Scope and Content Note: When he was elected to union office, Local 73 Secretary-Treasurer Harry Sutherland and Clerks President Edward M. Stadelmann would not speak to each other. Dubinski was “a good friend” of Michael Burtak, with whom he worked at A & P, and who succeeded Stadelmann. Burtak and Dubinski improved relations, coordinating organizing drives and negotiations.

JURISDICTIONAL DISPUTES BETWEEN MEAT CUTTERS AND CLERKS FOCUSED ON DELICATESSEN DEPARTMENTS
Scope and Content Note: Existing prior to his becoming secretary-treasurer, the disputes resulted in mediation by George Meany who stipulated that deli departments contiguous to meat departments would be under Meat Cutters jurisdiction, while those elsewhere would belong to the Clerks. This caused a problem in those chains which had delis next to meat departments in some stores but elsewhere in others, making it impossible to transfer some employees from store to store.

MOST OF HIS NON-TRADE UNION ACTIVITIES ARE DIRECTED TOWARD POLITICAL EFFORTS
Scope and Content Note: The union is involved in local and national political affairs. He worked especially hard in the Lyndon B. Johnson campaign against Barry Goldwater in 1964, and in the George McGovern campaign against Richard Nixon in 1972.

PROGRESS IN CONTRACT PROVISIONS HAS BEEN “STEADY” AND NOT MARKED BY GREAT LEAPS IN ANY SPECIFIC AREA

BARGAINING IS MORE DIFFICULT TODAY THAN IN FORMER YEARS
Scope and Content Note: The economic climate makes it more difficult to gain concessions from employers.

THE SENTRY CORPORATION IS THE MOST DIFFICULT COMPANY TO NEGOTIATE WITH
Scope and Content Note: The Godfrey family, which owns Sentry, is “ultra-conservative,” and the company's lawyer is “extremely astute, tougher than hell,” and reflects company attitudes.

KOHL EMPLOYEES LAUNCHED A “SIT-DOWN” STRIKE SOME 12 YEARS AGO
Scope and Content Note: The International then was boycotting Iowa Beef. The Kohl meat-processing plant received a shipment of carcasses which employees refused to process until Dubinski was told the company promised not to buy any more from Iowa Beef if they could process that shipment.

THE UNION HAS NEVER PURPOSELY CLOSED DOWN AN EMPLOYER
Scope and Content Note: The one exception may have been Food Queen.

EMPLOYERS GENERALLY ABIDE BY CONTRACT PROVISIONS

STRIKE AGAINST NATIONAL FOOD STORES
Scope and Content Note: The strike lasted perhaps a day and a half in the mid-1960s. The president of National Foods, Norman Stapelton, drove to Milwaukee, replaced the company's labor-relations person, and settled with the union.

1969 STRIKE AGAINST KOHL'S
Scope and Content Note: The union had been negotiating with many employers in the Milwaukee area at the same time. Herb Kohl had attended some but not all of the negotiation sessions. When negotiations reached an impasse, Dubinski called Kohl, told him the union's demands, and said the union would sign with Kohl if he desired and work out problems with the others. He agreed but later reneged. Sentry, A & P and other stores locked out union members. The strike lasted nine days, through Holy Week. The union won its demands.

END OF TAPE 3, SIDE 2

INTRODUCTION

WHAT THE UNION HAS MEANT TO ITS MEMBERS
Scope and Content Note: “To too many, it meant just getting more money.” Few understand the meaning of solidarity and the need for a union. Workers in Europe seem to have a deeper understanding of the need for unions--perhaps a result of socialism. He has tried to stimulate more union participation and interest by talking to members and by publishing a union newspaper.

HARD TIMES MAY BRING A “RENAISSANCE” TO THE LABOR MOVEMENT
Scope and Content Note: “I think that the workers in America are going to have to learn some bitter lessons that they will not forget for a long time again.” Just 23% of American workers are organized. European workers are much more organized.

THE FUTURE OF THE UFCW IS BRIGHT
Scope and Content Note: “I think the future of the UFCW is perhaps better than of any labor organization in the country.” He was very pleased by the merger with the Clerks. He had hoped for the merger since first working for Local 73.

HE WORRIES ABOUT THE LEGACY HE WILL LEAVE TO HIS MEMBERS
Scope and Content Note: “That's what I agonize over more than anything else.” The merger with the Clerks might be part of his legacy.

END OF INTERVIEW