William Proxmire Papers, 1938-2004 (bulk 1957-1980)

ContainerTitle
Audio 1030A
Series: Interviews
Audio   1030A/1
Subseries: Henry Reuss, 1982 September 24
Note: Access online.
Tape/Side   1/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   1/1
Time   01:45
POLITICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Joined American Veterans Committee (AVC) when he returned from military service to Milwaukee in January 1946. AVC active in Reuss' mayoral campaign 1947-1948. In 1948 Reuss was urged, mainly by Madisonians, to run for lieutenant governor. Refused because Milwaukee Democrats counciled him not to run. In 1949 worked overseas on Marshall Plan. Then practiced law in Milwaukee. Appointed Special Prosecutor in Milwaukee County. Announced candidacy for attorney general on the Democratic ticket in June 1950; lost election. Defeated in Democratic senate primary in 1952 by Tom Fairchild. Elected to Milwaukee school board in 1953. Elected to Congress since 1954.
Tape/Side   1/1
Time   08:55
ROLE IN FORMATION OF NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Not knowledgeable about this movement until June 1948 when he began to discuss running for lieutenant governor with Dane County Democratic Organizing Committee (DOC). DOC wanted someone from outside of Madison. Reuss knew people in the AVC who were active in the formation of the new Party.
Tape/Side   1/1
Time   11:40
POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY IN THE LATE 1940s
Scope and Content Note: Moderately liberal. Never was a Progressive.
Tape/Side   1/1
Time   12:15
INFLUENCE OF ESTABLISHED PARTIES ON THE FORMATION OF THE NEW PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Milwaukee Socialists, weak and passe at that time, had little to do with formation of new Democratic Party. Statutory Party under Charlie Green opposed new Democrats, discouraged Reuss from running for lieutenant governor. Bob Tehan was member of the DOC, friend to young Madisonians. Younger people received virtually no help from older politicians in Milwaukee.
Tape/Side   1/1
Time   20:15
JULIA BOEGHOLT, MILWAUKEE-MADISON CONFLICT
Scope and Content Note: Did not know Boegholt well but respected her. She was never party to anti-Reuss, pro-Fairchild feelings common in Madison in 1952. Milwaukee-Madison rivalry, while founded in fact, was largely created by the media.
Tape/Side   1/1
Time   23:05
ROLE IN FORMATION OF NEW PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Travelled all over state. Campaigned for office in 1950.
Tape/Side   1/1
Time   25:40
SPIRIT OF NEW MOVEMENT
Scope and Content Note: Exciting, comradely--supporters let Reuss stay with them while campaigning. (Campaign anecdotes.)
Tape/Side   1/1
Time   29:05
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   1/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   1/2
Time   00:30
SPIRIT OF NEW MOVEMENT (continued)
Scope and Content Note: (Anecdotes illustrating comradely spirit of campaign.) New Democratic Party being formed at exciting time--creation of NATO, evolution of US/USSR balance of power.
Tape/Side   1/2
Time   03:00
JOE McCARTHY
Scope and Content Note: Strengthened and unified Party more than any other single phenomenon.
Tape/Side   1/2
Time   03:55
POLITICAL VIABILITY OF DEMOCRATS
Scope and Content Note: Party grew stronger in the 1950s. 1953 Lester Johnson elected to Congress. 1954 Reuss elected to Congress. 1957 Proxmire elected to Senate. 1958 Nelson elected governor, Kastenmeier elected to Congress. 1962 Nelson elected to Senate.
Tape/Side   1/2
Time   06:40
LESTER JOHNSON
Scope and Content Note: Belonged to Madison “faction”. Supported Fairchild over Reuss in 1952 Senate primary. Reuss close to Fairchild ideologically. Jim Doyle and Gaylord Nelson both considered running for Senate. Johnson was small-time farmer but not a bumpkin. Supported the Marshall Plan.
Tape/Side   1/2
Time   8:40
POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY
Scope and Content Note: Family apolitical Republicans. DOC philosophy was main influence; government should strive for full employment and provide social services, personal honesty important, US has moral responsibility to Europe and Third World, strong support of civil liberties, work for peace. Republicans represented business, the railroads, real estate people, oil interests, big banks, insurance. Democrats identified with workers, farmers, small businesspeople. 1950s was period of quiescence, regrouping.
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/2
Subseries: Virginia North Lehman, 1982 September 29
Use Restrictions: No release forms were gathered from Virginia North Lehman. Researchers, therefore, should not quote directly from these interviews.
Tape/Side   2/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   2/1
Time   02:05
POLITICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Lived in Milwaukee. Graduated from law school 1927 or 1928. Worked in friend's Republican campaign for city council. About 1933 entered University of Chicago School of Social Service Administration; law jobs scarce during Depression, many lawyers studied social work.
Tape/Side   2/1
Time   05:55
FACTORS CAUSING FORMATION OF NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Overriding factor was Depression. (Anecdotes about severity of Depression.)
Tape/Side   2/1
Time   07:35
LEHMAN'S SOCIAL WORK
Scope and Content Note: In Chicago lived in College Woman's Club, many residents of which were involved in social work. Worked in the district attorney's office. Part of job was trying to get fathers to pay child support. Worked with many Poles and Germans. Under Daley, one had to do ward work at night to hold a city or county job.
Tape/Side   2/1
Time   11:35
MILWAUKEE
Scope and Content Note: Not there during New Deal era. Not corrupt like Chicago. German immigrants
Tape/Side   2/1
Time   15:15
CONGRESS OF INDUSTRIAL ORGANIZATIONS (CIO)
Scope and Content Note: CIO was developing within American Federation of Labor (AFL) while Lehman in Milwaukee. CIO Actively supported grassroots organizing. Organized a core of people available for many purposes, e.g. turning empty lots into playgrounds. Many people were so involved. Intent and process of organizing was to be aware of peoples troubles and make help available. Many women involved, men more involved in strikes.
Tape/Side   2/1
Time   19:50
INVOLVEMENT IN UNION SOCIAL WORK
Scope and Content Note: Worked in Chicago for a private legal aid office. Talked at strike meetings on how to deal with financial problems - part of union's efforts to attract new members. Work funded by United Charities.
Tape/Side   2/1
Time   23:00
PARTY AFFILIATIONS OF NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY ACTIVISTS
Scope and Content Note: Some began as socialists because the way to exert liberal power in Milwaukee was through the Socialist Party. On state level, Republican Party was a better vehicle for liberals. After Roosevelt, liberals could work more effectively in the Democratic Party. People attracted to Democrats by spirit embodied in Roosevelt's fireside chats and very strong Democratic organization in Illinois.
Tape/Side   2/1
Time   27:50
MILWAUKEE UNION LEADERS' POLITICAL AFFILIATIONS
Scope and Content Note: Unions always associated with liberals. Endorsed candidates but members usually supported the candidate of their choice.
Tape/Side   2/1
Time   29:15
END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   2/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   2/2
Time   00:30
UNION ACTIVITY
Scope and Content Note: (Anecdote about union meeting in Chicago stockyards.) People at meeting seemed enthusiastic, serious, involved. Labor had their own newspapers. People of all sorts involved, e.g. farmers conducted a milk strike. (Anecdote about Lehman's German housekeeper.)
Tape/Side   2/2
Time   06:20
JULIA BOEGHOLT
Scope and Content Note: Lehman met her at law school. Friends with the Boegholts and the Biemillers. Boegholt not involved in politics. Had little girl, ran nursery school and school on comparative religion and creationism. Boegholt had been laboratory technician at Georgia hospital.
Tape/Side   2/2
Time   11:25
ANDY BIEMILLER
Scope and Content Note: Very involved in AFL. Got involved in politics through the union. Lehman knew him socially.
Tape/Side   2/2
Time   14:15
LEHMAN AS ASSISTANT DISTRICT ATTORNEY
Scope and Content Note: Job was to keep the “squawk brigade (women) out of the men's hair”. Got job through her father.
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/3-5
Subseries: Julia Boegholt, 1982 October 30
Note: Access online.
Tape/Side   3/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   3/1
Time   00:50
POLITICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Came to Madison 1926 to work as bacteriologist. Husband was graduate student in philosophy and worked at the university. Could not work because law forbade two family members from concurrently working for the state. Only jobs in bacteriology were state jobs. Boegholt lobbied to pass legislation allowing two family members to work for state. By 1928 was acquainted with every legislator and many political activists. (Active women listed.) Boegholt did not vote until 1928, moved around too much. Actively worked for women's right to vote' since 1920. Interested in socialism, American history.
Tape/Side   3/1
Time   08:45
WORK FOR THE LA FOLLETTES
Scope and Content Note: Carl Boegholt drove Phil La Follette all over the state. Julia Boegholt copied poll lists, spoke to blacks door-to-door. Primary job was to keep Bill Evjue, editor of The Capital Times, informed.
Tape/Side   3/1
Time   11:55
FORMATION OF COOPERATIVES
Scope and Content Note: Many cooperatives formed in Madison. Current Mifflin Street Coop outgrowth of one of them. Bill Rice, Harold Groves, Harry Hamilton, very active in coops. Not all people active in coop movement were La Follette Progressives, many were Unitarians. Severe depression caused people to form coops. Students formed eating coops.
Tape/Side   3/1
Time   14:15
MILWAUKEE
Scope and Content Note: Dominated by Socialists. Labor just beginning to achieve strength. In 1934 Socialists and labor combined to form new party. Andy Biemiller arrived in Milwaukee from the East in 1934. Julia Boegholt knew him through Virginia North Lehman.
Tape/Side   3/1
Time   17:00
1934
Scope and Content Note: Worked for the La Follettes in the state elections and for the Democrats in the national elections. Took people to the polls and did other “dirty work”. Came to know many of Roosevelt's supporters. Dan Hoan traveled over the entire state speaking to former Grange people and William Jennings Bryan supporters about new liberal party. Hoan also held meetings to discuss the idea. Boegholt and others from Madison attended some of the meetings in Milwaukee.
Tape/Side   3/1
Time   20:45
THE LIBERAL CLUB OF DANE COUNTY
Scope and Content Note: Inspired by Hoan, some Madisonians started a Liberal Club. There were thirty or forty similar clubs around the state. In the early 1940s the organization was renamed The Citizens Club of Dane County. Gretchen Pfankuchen was president. Later renamed The Dane County Democratic Club. Helene Wheeler was president. Club tried to get local people to run as liberals. Did not identify with the Democrats until 1944. Floyd Wheeler very active. 1944, Hoan, Earl Stoneman, three others ran on Democratic liberal ticket.
Tape/Side   3/1
Time   24:10
END OF TAPE 3, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   3/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   3/2
Time   00:30
HOWARD McMURRAY, THE THIRD PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Political Science teacher at Milwaukee extension. Elected to Congress from fifth district in 1942. Wanted to give Roosevelt state support, which was not coming from the La Follettes. Phil La Follette and a group of Senators, including Bronson Cutting (New Mexico) and George Norris (Nebraska) desired to form third party. McMurray lost Senate election in 1944.] Many Progressives blamed Democrats for Bob La Follette's defeat.
Tape/Side   3/2
Time   04:35
PHIL LA FOLLETTE AND THE ROOSEVELT DEMOCRATS
Scope and Content Note: Boegholt knew Phil very well, did not know Bob La Follette well. Phil refused Roosevelt's offer of a cabinet post in 1932 because he was personally offended that he had been defeated by a Democrat. Phil felt that the development of a liberal Democratic Party would doom plans for a third party. As Roosevelt programs succeeded, people joined the Democrats.
Tape/Side   3/2
Time   08:10
PHIL LA FOLLETTE, THE NATIONAL PROGRESSIVES OF AMERICA (NPA)
Scope and Content Note: After his defeat, Phil and his wife Isen traveled to Germany. Phil returned a firm believer in Hitler's techniques. Held big meeting concerning NPA in 1934. Socialists not invited to meeting. Phil, a brilliant speaker, trained in politics by father. Served as Dane County district attorney 1926-1928. Elected governor as Progressive 1934.
Tape/Side   3/2
Time   17:05
DAN HOAN
Scope and Content Note: Most influential person in formation of new Democratic Party. Very respected, successful Socialist. Charismatic, popular. Knew people in northern part of state because he used to hunt and fish there.
Tape/Side   3/2
Time   20:05
CONFLICT BETWEEN MILWAUKEE AND MADISON DEMOCRATS
Scope and Content Note: Party developed separately in each city. Andy Biemiller brought the two groups together.
Tape/Side   3/2
Time   21:15
TOM AMLIE, THE NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY'S BEGINNINGS
Scope and Content Note: Amlie from North Dakota, Farmer-Labor member. Had close contact with Milwaukee Socialists. Boegholt met Dan Hoan through Amlie. Amlie, Boegholt and others were invited to Hoan's meetings about the formation a new liberal party. Harold Groves was invited but refused to attend.
Tape/Side   3/2
Time   22:45
LIBERAL CLUBS
Scope and Content Note: Formed as a result of Hoan's meetings. Each club acted independently. Bill Evjue introduced Boegholt to many labor people.
Tape/Side   3/2
Time   24:30
END OF TAPE 3, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   4/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   4/1
Time   00:30
LIBERAL CLUBS (continued)
Scope and Content Note: Boegholt approached many Progressives to join Liberal Club. Bill Evjue interested in involving labor in politics. Boegholt got to know union leaders, many ward people. She knew city's political makeup very well.
Tape/Side   4/1
Time   04:25
WOMEN'S INVOLVEMENT IN POLITICS
Scope and Content Note: Boegholt gave up her scientific career to become a mother. Never ran for office. Few women elected; (lists some who were.) More women elected in Milwaukee than elsewhere. World War II made it socially acceptable for women to work.
Tape/Side   4/1
Time   14:40
THE DANE COUNTY LIBERAL CLUB
Scope and Content Note: After one year Club had 200 or 300 members. Held monthly meetings. Discussed bills introduced in the legislature, possible candidates for election officials, etc.; discussed management rather than policy formation. Cedric Parker, Miles McMillin, Aldrich Revell very active. All had been in University's Progressive Club. Rollie Day, Floyd Wheeler, John Lawton also active. Lawton one of first to work with AFSCME. Many doctors were involved. Glenn Frank brought many professors to the university who supported the New Deal reforms. Many of them and their wives became active.
Tape/Side   4/1
Time   23:15
WOMEN IN THE LIBERAL CLUB
Scope and Content Note: Gretchen Pfankuchen, Gehrta Amlie, Helene Wheeler, and Julie Miles all active in organizing the Club. Boegholt became acquainted with many Dane County Democrats and tried to enlist Progressives in the Party. She also provided all information about Dane County to people in Milwaukee.
Tape/Side   4/1
Time   26:35
THE OLD DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Statutory Party very conservative, patronage dominated. Pat Lucey started in this old system. Statutory Democrats not favorable to liberalization of Party. Examples of patronage system: The Dane County Ring and Bologna Club --group of about twelve men, mostly postmasters, who decided who could be appointed postmaster. Statutory Party was very weak, only strong in Milwaukee. In 1944 Democrats barely got enough votes to get on ballot. Dairy coops were strong force.
Tape/Side   4/1
Time   30:30
END OF TAPE 4, SIDE 1
Tape/Side/Part   4/2/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side/Part   4/2/1
Time   00:30
FARMERS AND THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Some farmers very interested in agricultural programs being formulated in Washington--pleased that farmers' needs were being considered. These farmers' groups and women's guilds were very active as social and political clubs.
Tape/Side/Part   4/2/1
Time   01:55
ORGANIZING PEOPLE TO VOTE
Scope and Content Note: Boegholt and other women formed telephone committees to find out who needed to register, who needed a ride to the polls. Women also stuffed envelopes, handed out literature door-to-door and at factories. Boegholt older than most people involved.
Tape/Side/Part   4/2/1
Time   04:30
POLITICAL ACTIVITIES OF THE NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY, WOMEN'S ROLE
Scope and Content Note: After Nelson, Lucey, Thompson, and Wilkie became politically active they held meetings in rural towns. This unprecedented activity was possible because women had become politically active, allowing (male) political candidates more freedom from clerical and grassroots work. Women's involvement in politics was more accepted in 1942 than in 1922, especially in academic circles.
Tape/Side/Part   4/2/1
Time   10:40
BOEGHOLT'S FIRST GRASSROOTS ORGANIZING EXPERIENCE
Scope and Content Note: Talked to black women door-to-door in 1928 in Dane County. Tried to form women's groups and get them to vote.
Tape/Side/Part   4/2/1
Time   11:50
ORGANIZING FARMERS
Scope and Content Note: Much cooperation between farmers, especially dairy farmers in Wisconsin. Largely due to university's agricultural program. Boegholt tried to organize farmers through county agents, postmasters, coop leaders, freight agents, mill owners, small business people.
Tape/Side/Part   4/2/1
Time   15:00
ORGANIZING ACTIVITIES
Scope and Content Note: Boegholt's contact-would introduce her to local people and compile a list of names of people likely to be interested in the Party. She would later meet with these people or invite them to hear a speaker. Boegholt sometimes spoke, e.g. about how to register. Candidates for office would discuss issues. Such organizing activities built a foundation for the formation of La Follette's third party. Before the mass media became powerful, many people were not involved with politics.
Tape/Side/Part   4/2/1
Time   21:25
EARLY ORGANIZING ACTIVITIES
Scope and Content Note: Men worked at the organizational level at the time when the Liberal Clubs existed, especially finding people to run for office. The nascent party had very little money. Raised money when people spoke and at factories. Reception to the “movement” met with greatly varied acceptance throughout the state. Some counties, especially in the north, were very difficult to organize. In these sparsely settled areas existing networks, such as the Farmer's Union, used as a base from which to organize. Much easier to organize in the cities. Ethnic communities in the state were very segregated.
Tape/Side/Part   4/2/1
Time   27:35
THE LIBERAL CLUB'S SOCIAL ACCEPTABILITY
Scope and Content Note: Clubs were not controversial, political apathy was widespread. The new Democratic movement not very radical. Clubs were anti-Communist. Opposed by isolationist, anti-Rooselvelt Republicans and old-line Democrats.
Tape/Side/Part   4/2/1
Time   30:40
END OF TAPE 4, SIDE 2, PART 1
Tape/Side/Part   4/2/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side/Part   4/2/2
Time   00:30
THE LIBERAL CLUB'S SOCIAL ACCEPTABILITY (continued)
Scope and Content Note: Party first associated with Communism when Bobrowicz, a Communist, ran for Congress in 1946 in fourth district. Defeated Wasielewski in the primary, but lost to a Republican in the general election.
Tape/Side/Part   4/2/2
Time   01:30
END OF TAPE 4, SIDE 2, PART 2
Tape/Side   5/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   5/1
Time   00:50
ORGANIZATIONAL EVOLUTION OF NEW DEMOCRATIC MOVEMENT
Scope and Content Note: Liberal Clubs evolved into Citizens Committees. In 1946 Dane County Democratic Club formed to collect money for statutory Party. In 1949 Democratic Organizing Committee (DOC) formed. Statutory group consisted of a precinct committeeperson of each precinct and the chairperson of a county. These people recommended election officials and attended to local business.
Tape/Side   5/1
Time   03:20
DECISION TO ENTER THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND THE LA FOLLETTES
Scope and Content Note: In 1946 Bob La Follette decided that it was important for the Progressives to reaffiliate with the Republican Party. There was much disagreement among Progressives about this. Labor was more inclined to join the Democratic Party. Boegholt was convinced by 1932 that the Democratic Party was the better party to join. Tom Fairchild, Gaylord Nelson, and other young people ran as Republicans in 1946. Young people who had returned from the war were unaware of post-war political reality. They ran as Republicans out of loyalty for Bob La Follette. After his defeat they started working with the liberal Democrats.
Tape/Side   5/1
Time   11:45
THE MOVEMENT TO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Orland Loomis was only Progressive elected to a state level position besides the La Follettes. Died before he could assume governorship. Third party movement collapsed after Loomis died. Roosevelt endorsed Bob La Follette for senator in 1940. Phil La Follette would not join Democrats. Fairchild, Nelson, Wilkie, Zablocki, Reuss all subsequently elected as Democrats. Supported by publishers in Green Bay, Sheboygan, shipbuilders in Manitowoc. By 1948 old Progressives were being defeated by young Democrats.
Tape/Side   5/1
Time   17:35
CHARLIE GREEN-BOB TEHAN STRUGGLE FOR CONTROL OF THE STATUTORY PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Much inner friction in Party. Green stole files from Milwaukee headquarters, wanted Elizabeth Hawkes appointed national committee-woman. Tehan supported Boegholt. Dan Hoan worked closely with Tehan.
Tape/Side   5/1
Time   21:20
BOEGHOLT'S APPOINTMENT AS NATIONAL COMMITTEEWOMAN
Scope and Content Note: Tehan overwhelmingly elected party chairman at state convention. Boegholt thus became national committeewoman. Helen Marty, incumbent national committeewoman active in post at 1948 convention in Philadelphia.
Tape/Side   5/1
Time   24:20
BOEGHOLT'S ACTIVITIES AS NATIONAL COMMITTEEWOMAN
Scope and Content Note: Organized affairs--arranged entertainment, accommodations, etc. Recommended people for federal judgeships to the attorney general. Tried to enlist support for Humphrey's civil rights platform.
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/6-8
Subseries: Mari Jo and Walter Uphoff, 1982 December 8
Note: Access online.
Tape/Side/Part   6/1/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side/Part   6/1/1
Time   00:35
SUPPORT FOR AMERICAN INVOLVEMENT IN WORLD WAR II
Scope and Content Note: Hotly debated issue for years before actual involvement. Walter Uphoff attended meeting on this topic in 1940.
Tape/Side/Part   6/1/1
Time   02:00
FORMATION OF FARMER-LABOR-PROGRESSIVE FEDERATION AND THE PROGRESSIVE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: People in the coop and labor movements, and others politically left of the La Follettes, were interested in setting up more radical organization than what the La Follettes envisioned. Henry Ohl of the Wisconsin State Federation of Labor called a meeting to this end in Appleton and, later, in Oshkosh. Attended by representatives of nine organizations. This evolved into the Farmer-Labor-Progressive Federation (FLPF). The representatives drafted a platform and decided to run people in the Progressive primary and then support whomever won the primary.
Tape/Side/Part   6/1/1
Time   09:50
WALTER'S BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Met Mari Jo in 1937. Member of FLPF. Active in Baptist student group as college student. Like many others--supported Roosevelt as a practical measure to achieve limited socialist reforms.
Tape/Side/Part   6/1/1
Time   12:00
POLITICAL SITUATION IN NORTH DAKOTA IN THE EARLY 1930s
Scope and Content Note: Many people active in coops joined the Non-Partisan League, especially in the northwestern part of the state. Very few Democrats in state until Roosevelt's time. Many people supported Roosevelt as a practical compromise. Mari Jo, a North Dakota resident, voted for Norman Thomas in 1932. Socialists supported Bob La Follette in 1924. Difficult to place Socialists on ballot. The Socialists agreed to support the FLPF's candidate in the years that the FLPF ran candidates.
Tape/Side/Part   6/1/1
Time   14:50
ANDY BIEMILLER
Scope and Content Note: Editor of The Wisconsin Leader. Served three terms in the legislature as a FLPF progressive, but was Socialist Party member. He quit the Socialist Party in 1940 due to its stand on the war.
Tape/Side/Part   6/1/1
Time   15:30
AMERICAN ENTRY INTO WORLD WAR II
Scope and Content Note: Socialists empathized with European Socialists as strong opponents of the Nazis but opposed involvement in a “capitalist's war.”
Tape/Side/Part   6/1/1
Time   22:20
HE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND THE DECLINE OF THIRD PARTIES
Scope and Content Note: New Deal and pressure to support World War II eroded the strength of the NPL. FLPF failed because there was no national organization. Former supporters of third parties joined Democratic Party. Strong anti-Communist atmosphere in country used against third parties, alienated ignorant rural people against all leftist parties.
Tape/Side/Part   6/1/1
Time   27:15
COMMUNISTS AT THE OSHKOSH MEETING, W.P.A. WORKERS EDUCATION
Scope and Content Note: Communists controlled the Wisconsin Congress of Industrial Organizations (CIO), an organization represented at Oshkosh. W.P.A. ran training program in Madison for teachers to work in rural and urban areas, teaching parliamentary procedure, economics health care, etc. Walter attended, and later taught in rural areas. W.P.A. supported classes in general education for unemployed young people in Madison. One teacher who attended these training programs was a fanatic Communist.
Tape/Side/Part   6/1/1
Time   30:30
END OF TAPE 6, SIDE 1, PART 1
Tape/Side/Part   6/1/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side/Part   6/1/2
Time   00:30
COMMUNISTS AT OSHKOSH MEETING (continued)
Scope and Content Note: Kenneth Goff.
Tape/Side/Part   6/1/2
Time   01:15
END OF TAPE 6, SIDE 1, PART 2
Tape/Side/Part   6/2/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side/Part   6/2/1
Time   00:30
WORKER EDUCATION
Scope and Content Note: Many people involved in W.P.A. worker education were Socialists or Progressives. In 1925 a summer school for women workers in industry was organized through the Y.W.C.A. The Federation of Labor lobbied successfully to have the school function year round. School operated year round from 1936 until 1938, when Republican Julius Heil was elected Governor. School reverted to summer session only following report of radical politics being discussed in classes.
Tape/Side/Part   6/2/1
Time   06:20
CONCEPT OF “PRODUCTION FOR USE”
Scope and Content Note: Discussion of definition of profit and socialism.
Tape/Side/Part   6/2/1
Time   08:40
HEIL'S ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: Editor of Dairyman's News, influential publication of the Wisconsin Cooperative Milk Pool, sold out to the utilities and urged support of Heil in paper. This swung decisive rural vote to Heil.
Tape/Side/Part   6/2/1
Time   12:00
COMMUNIST ACTIVITY IN EARLY 1930s
Scope and Content Note: (Anecdote about convention in Oshkosh) Walter Uphoff overheard and exposed Communist plans to involve Communist Party in organization which became the FLPF. Communists very active in CIO, not so active in Federation of Labor. Communists gained control of the Workers Alliance which thereupon fell apart. A local at Allis Chalmers had Communist leadership. Communists controlled the World News Congress in 1938.
Tape/Side/Part   6/2/1
Time   18:55
THE PROGRESSIVE'S DECISION TO JOIN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Walter Uphoff attended 1946 Portage convention as reporter. Progressives decided to join Republicans over Democrats or Socialists, both weak parties.
Tape/Side/Part   6/2/1
Time   22:45
JOE MCCARTHY
Scope and Content Note: Did not discuss issues in primary race, very ambitious. Anti Communism not part of original McCarthy platform. (Discussion of McCarthy's career.) Democrats, CIO, The Capital Times attacked Bob La Follette for leading the Progressives into the Republican Party. They thought that by removing La Follette from the election the Democratic candidate would have a better chance.
Tape/Side/Part   6/2/1
Time   28:10
SOCIALISM OUTSIDE OF MILWAUKEE
Scope and Content Note: Socialists had some county organizations and ran individuals in other counties. Some Farmers Equity Union members were Socialists.
Tape/Side/Part   6/2/1
Time   30:00
THE FELLOWSHIP FARM
Scope and Content Note: Walter Uphoff came to Dane County in 1936. Farm operated 1941-1944 in Prairie du Sac, then moved to Madison. Published Wisconsin Commonwealth.
Tape/Side/Part   6/2/1
Time   30:40
END OF TAPE 6, SIDE 2, PART 1
Tape/Side/Part   6/2/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side/Part   6/2/2
Time   00:30
FELLOWSHIP FARM (continued)
Scope and Content Note: Anecdote about William Evjue announcing on his Sunday radio program that he was donating fifty dollars to Walter Uphoff in order to help the struggling Socialist Party. Fellowship Farm had displaced persons, refugees, etc.
Tape/Side/Part   6/2/2
Time   01:45
END OF TAPE 6, SIDE 2, PART 2
Tape/Side/Part   7/1/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side/Part   7/1/1
Time   00:30
THE FELLOWSHIP FARM (continued)
Scope and Content Note: Madison chapter of the Fellowship of Reconciliation founded 1939. Chester Graham planned to set up a Margaret E. Graham Memorial Folk School in Madison; never realized. This project developed into the Fellowship Farm Cooperative, Inc. Uphoffs operated the farm on very little money. One of many farm communes active in early 1940s. Two or three families participated. Functioned until about 1951. No overt political activity involved, ran youth hostel, took in displaced persons, had speakers and dancing.
Tape/Side/Part   7/1/1
Time   08:25
UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA'S LABOR EDUCATION PROGRAM
Scope and Content Note: Walter Uphoff asked by the University to set up 'a labor education program in 1952 so that University could serve workers as well as other segments of society. Uphoff taught at the University of Wisconsin School for Workers in 1937.
Tape/Side/Part   7/1/1
Time   12:50
ANDY BIEMILLER
Scope and Content Note: Editor of The Wisconsin Leader. In state legislature for six years as FLPF member. Advocate of health insurance. Legislative director of AFL-CIO. Both Biemiller and Uphoff were organizers for the AFL. Uphoff promoted a Farmers Union Federation of Labor joint board.
Tape/Side/Part   7/1/1
Time   17:10
UPHOFF'S PARTY AFFILIATION
Scope and Content Note: Never joined Democratic Party, always a Socialist. Ran for governor as Socialist in 1944.
Tape/Side/Part   7/1/1
Time   18:40
THE NATIONAL PROGRESSIVES ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA
Scope and Content Note: Phil La Follette was not a fascist, nor was the symbol of the National Progressives of America (NPA) a swastika. Ralph Immell, attorney general, strongly supported NPA. Influence of covertly Republican controlled newspaper The Dairyman's News was major factor in La Follette's defeat.
Tape/Side/Part   7/1/1
Time   24:45
UPHOFF'S POLITICAL ACTIVITY IN THE 1940s
Scope and Content Note: Mari Jo took care of the Uphoff children--had no time for politics. Walter ran for U.S. Senate in 1944, governor in 1946 and 1948 on Socialist ticket. Did not think he would be elected, regarded campaign as educative.
Tape/Side/Part   7/1/1
Time   27:00
DAN HOAN
Scope and Content Note: A good mayor. Became disillusioned in 1940 when he was defeated by Carl Zeidler who won because of his charisma. Hoan then joined Democrats. Socialist Party did not function as an independent party after the creation of the FLPF.
Tape/Side/Part   7/1/1
Time   29:00
END OF TAPE 7, SIDE 1, PART 1
Tape/Side/Part   7/1/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side/Part   7/1/2
Time   00:30
DAN HOAN (continued)
Scope and Content Note: Outline of Hoan's views on regulation. Milwaukee under Hoan had reputation of being the most graft-free city in the country. Carl Zeidler enlisted in the Coast Guard.
Tape/Side/Part   7/1/2
Time   02:40
END OF TAPE 7, SIDE 1, PART 2
Tape/Side/Part   7/2/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side/Part   7/2/1
Time   00:30
CARL ZEIDLER, FRANK ZEIDLER, THE 1948 MILWAUKEE MAYORAL ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: Carl Zeidler killed while in Coast Guard. John L. Bohn was acting mayor while Zeidler in Coast Guard, then elected mayor in 1944. Frank Zeidler then on school board. Asked to run for mayor in 1948 by Socialists. Henry Reuss wanted to run and have Zeidler drop out of the race. Many people entered primary race. Reuss moved far to the right. Labor withdrew their support and persuaded Hoan to run. Zeidler won election. By 1948 labor identified with Democrats rather than Socialists.
Tape/Side/Part   7/2/1
Time   8:35
WALTER GOODLAND
Scope and Content Note: Walter Uphoff challenged him to a debate when running for governor in 1946 or 1948. Goodland refused to participate.
Tape/Side/Part   7/2/1
Time   10:00
DAN HOAN, THE SOCIALIST PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Walter Uphoff volunteered for Hoan's campaign in 1948 in Milwaukee. Close connection between all Socialists in Wisconsin. Uphoff was on Socialist Party's National Steering Committee 1942-1950. Met quarterly. Conflict between ex-Progressives and Socialists in late 1930s for control of FLPF and Democratic Party. (Anecdote about Capital Times reporter eavesdropping on FLPF meeting.) Anna May Davis and Glenn Turner, old Socialists, had joint law office in Madison. Turner ran for attorney general, involved in FLPF.
Tape/Side/Part   7/2/1
Time   15:35
CAPITAL TIMES REPORTER JOHN HUNTER
Scope and Content Note: Tried unsuccessfully to get people on the street to sign untitled Bill of Rights. Another time, asked people the difference between Socialists and Communists--few knew.
Tape/Side/Part   7/2/1
Time   17:05
THE DEMOCRATIC ORGANIZING COMMITTEE (DOC)
Scope and Content Note: Neither Uphoffs involved in DOC. Were in Minnesota when it was active--supported Democratic Farm Labor Party. 1946-1948 worked in Minnesota and Illinois collecting signatures to put Norman Thomas on the ballot.
Tape/Side/Part   7/2/1
Time   18:30
CARL THOMPSON
Scope and Content Note: Worked for Phil La Follette while at the university. Uphoffs knew Thompson.
Tape/Side/Part   7/2/1
Time   19:05
GAYLORD NELSON
Scope and Content Note: Anecdote about Nelson--Uphoff dinner party.
Tape/Side/Part   7/2/1
Time   20:25
TOM FAIRCHILD
Scope and Content Note: Uphoffs did not know him well.
Tape/Side/Part   7/2/1
Time   21:15
KENNETH GOFF
Scope and Content Note: Part of caucus at FLPF Oshkosh convention supporting recognition of Communist Party as part of FLPF. Later became virulently anti-Communist. Goff spoke at Sheboygan meeting and was hit by a streetcar. Communist lawyers took over case from labor lawyers against streetcar company and won settlement which Goff donated to Spanish Loyalists. Goff later became star witness for the Dies Committee, and a rabid fundamentalist. He also later claimed that the streetcar accident had been arranged to raise money for the Communist Party.
Tape/Side/Part   7/2/1
Time   30:05
END OF TAPE 7, SIDE 2, PART 1
Tape/Side/Part   7/2/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side/Part   7/2/2
Time   00:30
KENNETH GOFF (continued)
Scope and Content Note: Goff declared that the streetcar accident was intentional. Spoke in the Twin Cities and accused Walter Uphoff of being a Communist. Anecdote about Student Peace Union leafleting in Minneapolis and Goff.
Tape/Side/Part   7/2/2
Time   02:25
END OF TAPE 7, SIDE 2, PART 2
Tape/Side/Part   8/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side/Part   8/1
Time   00:30
KENNETH GOFF (continued)
Scope and Content Note: Goff publicly called Walter Uphoff a Communist. (Uphoff outlines his disbelief in Communism.) Goff eventually joined the Soldiers of the Cross. Also worked with John B. Chapple, a religious fanatic and anti-Communist who ran against Phil La Follette in 1936. Actually Chapple ran against Wiley in the Republican primary and Wiley then ran against La Follette in the general election. Also published The La Follette Road to Communism. Discussion of anti-Communist hysteria.
Tape/Side/Part   8/1
Time   06:40
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/9
Subseries: Lucile Miller, 1983 March 5
Note: Access online.
Tape/Side/Part   9/1/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side/Part   9/1/1
Time   00:30
PERSONAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Born in Madison, 1904. Father, attorney, Progressive, came to Madison in 1901 to work for Bob La Follette. Mother arrived in 1903. Both from Kentucky. Lucile was not graduated from seventh or eighth grade because she would not work for the Red Cross because her father was against the war. Spent a lot of time in south Chicago with grandmother in 1920s.
Tape/Side/Part   9/1/1
Time   11:45
WOMEN'S POLITICAL ACTIVITY
Scope and Content Note: Lucile's mother and her mother's friends thought women should be able to vote. Most politically active women were educated.
Tape/Side/Part   9/1/1
Time   14:25
LUCILE'S POLITICAL INVOLVEMENT
Scope and Content Note: Never worked with Progressives. First active in the 1940s. Attended Dane County Citizens Committee (DCCC) convention in Green Bay. Impressed with enthusiasm of new Democrats. Attended meetings at the Amlies--most participants were university people. Attended meetings in Milwaukee after new Democrats merged with the statutory Party. Dan Hoan was at thoese meetings. Was precinct committeewoman in Madison. Organized Blacks to register to vote.
Tape/Side/Part   9/1/1
Time   29:00
END OF TAPE 9, SIDE 1, PART 1
Tape/Side/Part   9/1/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side/Part   9/1/2
Time   00:30
LUCILE'S POLITICAL INVOLVEMENT (continued)
Scope and Content Note: Politically active Blacks in Milwaukee were Republicans. People responsive to organizing. People shocked by dissolution of Progressives were encouraged by the liberalization of the Democratic Party. Meetings in Milwaukee were large.
Tape/Side/Part   9/1/2
Time   07:25
JOE McCARTHY, COMMUNISM
Scope and Content Note: Lucile and her mother supported Phil La Follette to the end. Furious that Bob La Follette was defeated by McCarthy, another Hitler. (Discussion of anti-Communist hysteria.) Communists wanted to control third parties. Could not influence Dane County Democrats because the Democrats knew the identity of all local Communists and kept vigilant guard against them. Communist control of Democrats never an issue in Dane County. Lucile did not get along with Communists.
Tape/Side/Part   9/1/2
Time   16:35
END OF TAPE 9, SIDE 1, PART 2
Tape/Side   9/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   9/2
Time   00:30
WOMEN'S POLITICAL ACTIVITY
Scope and Content Note: Women did a lot of volunteer work. Lucile worked with Gretchen Pfankuchen and Julia Boegholt. Boegholt was primary figure, first national committeewoman. Educated people were the leaders. (Lists leaders.) Many Catholics were Democrats.
Tape/Side   9/2
Time   07:30
THE LA FOLLETTES
Scope and Content Note: Supported by labor and The Capital Times. Little coop support because there were few coops in the 1940s. Lucile's mother and father were devoted supporters and friends of the La Follettes. Lucile used to babysit for Phil La Follette's children.
Tape/Side   9/2
Time   14:30
DISCUSSION OF CONTEMPORARY WOMEN'S GROUP
Tape/Side   9/2
Time   17:05
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/10
Subseries: Bruno Bitker, 1983 April 9
Note: Access online.
Tape/Side   10/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   10/1
Time   00:30
POLITICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Born in Milwaukee, lived there entire life. In armed forces in World War I. Graduated from law school, began practice in 1921 as associate of Phil and Marjorie Marshall.
Tape/Side   10/1
Time   02:05
BOB TEHAN
Scope and Content Note: First met him in the 1930s through a law partner's relative who was active in the Democratic Party. Tehan was separated from his wife, lived with his mother. Tehan not involved with Hoan in 1930s. Tehan thinking of bringing liberals into Democratic Party in 1930s. Hoan friendly with Tehan but not close. Tehan influenced by mother.
Tape/Side   10/1
Time   10:25
1946 SENATE PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Bitker supported La Follette. McCarthy ran as a Marine hero, was greatly helped by being a veteran.
Tape/Side   10/1
Time   11:30
RACE IN FOURTH DISTRICT BY BOBROWICZ
Scope and Content Note: No recall.
Tape/Side   10/1
Time   12:35
CHARLIE GREEN--BOB TEHAN CONFLICT
Scope and Content Note: Major motivation behind Tehan's interest in the DOC was to circumvent Green, who controlled statutory Party. Tehan enjoyed politics.
Tape/Side   10/1
Time   15:50
1948 ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: Tehan persuaded Carl Thompson to run for governor, Tom Fairchild for attorney general.
Tape/Side   10/1
Time   18:00
CARL THOMPSON
Scope and Content Note: Had been in legislature, was known, :ran well. Thompson was friends with Tehan but not close.
Tape/Side   10/1
Time   19:15
BOB TEHAN
Scope and Content Note: Phil Marshall was close advisor. Bitker had a lot of contact with Tehan after 1945.
Tape/Side   10/1
Time   22:50
TEHAN'S APPOINTMENT TO JUDGESHIP
Scope and Content Note: Bitker considered for judgeship as well as Becker. Tehan suggested himself. Businessman in Duluth or Superior urged him to take the post. No longer involved with Democrats after he became a judge. Tehan stayed in Milwaukee.
Tape/Side   10/1
Time   26:50
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/11-12
Subseries: Gretchen Pfankuchen
Use Restrictions: No release forms were gathered from Gretchen Pfankuchen. Researchers, therefore, should not quote directly from these interviews.
1983 April 9
Tape/Side   11/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   11/1
Time   00:30
POLITICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: First involvement--went to meetings at the Amlies. Dan Hoan attended these meetings. Meetings inspired by Hoan's efforts to build new Democratic organization. Meetings very loosely organized. Supported Roosevelt. Not a Progressive. Got involved through friends.
Tape/Side   11/1
Time   05:10
THE LA FOLLETTE'S REPORT ON THEIR TRIP TO GERMANY
Scope and Content Note: Jane and John Gaus had meetings at their house at which the La Follettes told about their trip to Germany. Women in attendance listened to Mrs. La Follette talk about Hitler Youth Movement. La Follette very influenced by Hitler's organizational tactics, not aware of other aspects of regime.
Tape/Side   11/1
Time   08:40
THE DANE COUNTY CITIZENS COMMITTEE (DCCC)
Scope and Content Note: Never more than a hundred members. Members were from all over county. Multi-partisan, loosely organized. DCCC did not have ticket--its favored candidates ran on other tickets. Majority in DCCC felt that Democratic Party needed to be strengthened because former Progressives were not supporting Progressive platform, e.g. on war participation issue. DCCC endorsed candidates. Had very little money. Not in close contact with other county organizations. Julia Boegholt became National Committeewoman in 1948. Pfankuchen was DCCC Chairperson for about a year. Returning veterans provided pool of candidates, lacking while they were at war.
Tape/Side   11/1
Time   21:20
PFANKUCHEN'S POLITICAL AFFILIATION
Scope and Content Note: Never a Progressive. Never a Phil La Follette supporter. Always a Democrat. Father was a Progressive.
Tape/Side   11/1
Time   22:40
THE DANE COUNTY DEMOCRATIC CLUB (DCDC)
Scope and Content Note: The DCCC evolved into the DCDC. DCDC was DOC's effort to found an organization to raise money. DCDC became part of the DOC. DCDC found it difficult to attract candidates--did not run the full slate of candidates necessary to be effective.
Tape/Side   11/1
Time   25:50
DR. OLSON FROM STOUGHTON
Scope and Content Note: Olson agreed to run for coroner, a position which few people were interested in running for. Ran to fill slate but had no interest in serving. Won unexpectedly and resigned the following day.
Tape/Side   11/1
Time   26:40
MYRTLE HANSEN
Scope and Content Note: Long held clerk of courts post. Difficult to find someone to run against her. Jean Johnson finally defeated Hansen.
Tape/Side   11/1
Time   27:35
THE OLD DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Many people in DCDC were “old” Democrats.
Tape/Side   11/1
Time   27:55
END OF TAPE 11, SIDE 1
1983 April 24
Tape/Side   11/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   11/2
Time   00:30
THE OLD DEMOCRATIC PARTY (continued)
Scope and Content Note: Old Democrats considered conservatives by Progressives but this was not so. They supported Roosevelt's principles.
Tape/Side   11/2
Time   02:45
PEOPLE ACTIVE AT STATE LEVEL
Scope and Content Note: Dan Hoan inspired DCCC people. Stressed the importance of raising money, and the interrelatedness of state politics. State people made contact with county organizations through State Chairman Charles Green.
Tape/Side   11/2
Time   06:00
EARLY ORGANIZATION OF DCDC
Scope and Content Note: Women did majority of work before men returned from the war. Hjordis Wolfe was work chairman--kept track of who did what. All labor was volunteer. Had no office. George Schlotthauer and Bill Smith's partner donated space.
Tape/Side   11/2
Time   09:30
THE AMERICAN VETERANS COMMITTEE
Scope and Content Note: Pfankuchen knew them as friends but did not have much contact with this organization.
Tape/Side   11/2
Time   10:20
DOC CONVENTION
Scope and Content Note: Pfankuchen attended some conventions. Sales tax a major issue at convention. Doyle, Reuss, Fairchild, Tehan, Boegholt, Hoan, Helen Marty from Monroe were active. Dane County sent large delegations.
Tape/Side   11/2
Time   14:10
PFANKUCHEN AS CHAIRPERSON OF STATUTORY COMMITTEE
Scope and Content Note: Found people to work as precinct committeepersons to enlist poll workers. Very loose organization. This was an effective way to build the Party. Pfankuchen traveled often. The board decided which campaign tasks she would implement. Precinct committee-persons selected from dues-paying members of voluntary committee. Pfankuchen was secretary of statutory committee when John McGonigle was Chairman.
Tape/Side   11/2
Time   23:25
END OF TAPE 11, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   12/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   12/1
Time   00:35
THE STATUTORY COMMITTEE
Scope and Content Note: Julia Boegholt elected secretary. Pfankuchen served as secretary, then Chairperson. Also had ex-officio membership on voluntary Party board. Voluntary committee formed to raise money because statutory legally could not. Eventually the voluntary committee usurped all functions of the statutory committee. Not many people contended for committee jobs. (Active people listed.) Grassroots workers were mostly women--men worked at “regular” jobs.
Tape/Side   12/1
Time   07:25
1946 ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: McCarthy united Democratic Party. Pfankuchen's resolve to support Roosevelt reinforced when she returned from Washington to find that people in Wisconsin were not aware of what Hitler was doing in Europe. Supported Howard McMurray. Progressive Party was disintegrating, isolationist. Primaries were unimportant in early years when only one candidate ran. They became undesirable when candidates had to raise money for their campaign.
Tape/Side   12/1
Time   14:30
ANTI-McCARTHY ACTIVITIES
Scope and Content Note: Dr. Robert Becker was head of “Joe Must Go” movement, vigorous in Dane County. Fairchild, Doyle, Reuss, and others involved in Operation Truth. They followed McCarthy around the state and spoke in opposition. Very emotional issue.
Tape/Side   12/1
Time   18:15
TRUMAN CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: Supported Truman, does not recall campaign.
Tape/Side   12/1
Time   20:30
VOTER REGISTRATION
Scope and Content Note: Labor complained that registration hours coincided with working hours. Democrats managed to open the registration office one night a week. Anecdote about actual registering on election night.
Tape/Side   12/1
Time   23:25
PARTY AFFILIATION IN RURAL AREAS
Scope and Content Note: People preferred to remain independent rather than join Democratic Party. Old Progressive Republicans hesitated to join Democratic Party. Matt Kalscheur from Cross Plains was precinct Committeeman for both the Democrats and Republicans.
Tape/Side   12/1
Time   28:25
END OF TAPE 12, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   12/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   12/2
Time   00:30
MARY DOWLING AND THE THREE GRAHAM SISTERS
Scope and Content Note: These women lived in the fourth ward. Did not support National Progressive Association. Became staunch Democrats. Held parties for candidates in their homes. Very helpful to Party. Supported Nestingen.
Tape/Side   12/2
Time   05:25
PFANKUCHEN'S POLITICAL INVOLVEMENT
Scope and Content Note: Politically active by end of 1930s. Delegate to Democratic convention in Los Angeles in 1960. Ran for Assembly 1964. Worked on Ruth Doyle's campaign--held teas for her. She had hard time getting recognition as a candidate because she was a woman.
Tape/Side   12/2
Time   10:10
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/13-14
Subseries: Virginia and Henry Hart, 1983 April 26
Note: Access online.
Tape/Side   13/1
Time   00:30
INTRODUCTION
Scope and Content Note: Virginia came to Madison in 1945, Henry in 1946. Involved in Madison politics until 1952 when they left for India.
Tape/Side   13/1
Time   01:10
VIRGINIA'S POLITICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Worked for the YWCA with working women, first in Rochester, New York, then in Knoxville, Tennessee. Then became education director for the ILGWU in Knoxville at a cotton mill. Came to Wisconsin as an ILGWU delegate to the School for Workers, Moved to Madison to study for Masters under Selig Perlman After receiving degree, she taught at the School for Workers. With Gaylord Nelson and others, founded Madison Council on Human Rights. Involved with League of Women Voters. In 1947, stopped teaching, began volunteering full-time for Democratic Party. Hired as executive secretary of Party in 1946.
Tape/Side   13/1
Time   03:20
HENRY'S POLITICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Worked for the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA) 1936-1943. Went to college in Nashville, involved there with YMCA. In army 1943-1946. Came to Madison to study TVA under John Gaus.
Tape/Side   13/1
Time   06:10
MADISON ACADEMICS AND THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: John Gaus, William Ebenstein, professors of political science at the University. Gaus foremost expert on TVA. Howard McMurray, lecturer in political science department, ran as Democrat against Joe McCarthy for Senate. Hart urged by friends to vote for McCarthy in 1946 Republican primary because La Follette would be impossible to beat. They thought Democratic Party needed revamping. Returning liberal and Progressive veterans and Madison academics very involved in Democratic Party.
Tape/Side   13/1
Time   12:15
THE AMERICAN VETERANS COMMITTEE
Scope and Content Note: Henry and many friends members of American Veterans Committee (AVC). Henry especially active 1946-1947. Many AVC members later active in Democratic Organizing Committee (DOC). Henry chaired AVC graduate student housing committee. AVC 1946 national convention held in Milwaukee. Two major matters: Chas Patterson and Dick Bolling's contention for national presidency; Communist manipulation of the AVC. Henry was Communist a few years in Tennessee, knew their methods. Spoke and organized successfully to prevent Communist takeover of AVC. Horace Wilkie very active in AVC. Jim Doyle, member, but not active. John Higham, AVC leader. Al Houghton and Harold Claus from Milwaukee active in AVC.
Tape/Side   13/1
Time   17:55
THE DEMOCRATIC ORGANIZING COMMITTEE
Scope and Content Note: Many AVC members involved in DOC, but AVC itself did not organize DOC. Many returning veterans wanted to cause political change. DOC considered alternative party, most feasible channel for political activity outside traditional party organizations.
Tape/Side   13/1
Time   19:15
BOB TEHAN AND THE DOC
Scope and Content Note: Tehan most prominent Democratic leader during Roosevelt era. Supported returning veterans who wanted to take over Party. Tehan's support instrumental in success of Gaylord Nelson, Jim Doyle, Carl Thompson. Tehan agreed with DOC effort to recruit farmer and labor support. Jerry Fox, old line Democrat supported DOC. Fox and Doyle were to be Party chairmen, but were otherwise engaged. Virginia Hart and Doyle managed Tom Fairchild's Senate campaign. Tehan knew that a reconstituted Democratic Party could attract former La Follette supporters and thereby gain a focus. Old Party supporters largely Irish Catholics, patronage appointees, conservative. New constituency young, veterans, idealists.
Tape/Side   13/1
Time   27:05
LEADERS OF THE NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Leaders Doyle, Thompson, Julia Boegholt, Pat Lucey worked closely with Tehan. Also Red Newton from Kenosha. Newton active in AVC and DOC, editor of Kenosha Labor.
Tape/Side   13/1
Time   29:15
END OF TAPE 13, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   13/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   13/2
Time   00:30
LEADERS OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY (continued)
Scope and Content Note: Newton had close ties with many union people. Many union members in Party 1946-1948. Former Socialist Dan Hoan's decision to become a Democrat influenced others to join Party.
Tape/Side   13/2
Time   03:35
DEMOCRATIC PARTY ORGANIZATION
Scope and Content Note: Socialist attorney Ole Stolen donated small office at 115 Main Street to the Party, 1946 or 1947. Esther Kaplan, Gretchen Pfankuchen, and Virginia Hart volunteered there full-time. Next moved Party headquarters to University Avenue where Tom Amlie rented or donated space. John Moses and other students volunteered there. Then moved to large office at 18 1/2 East Mifflin. Virginia Hart recruited volunteers and arranged the office.
Tape/Side   13/2
Time   06:45
WARREN SAWALL
Scope and Content Note: Editor of Wisconsin Democrat, published monthly out of 18 1/2 East Mifflin. Sawall moved from Wisconsin Rapids where he did newspaper work. Very active in Party there.
Tape/Side   13/2
Time   08:00
WOMEN'S ROLE IN PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Virginia Hart participated in administrative planning meetings but did not vote. She carried out policy decisions. A few women were on state administrative committee: Marge Benson from Milwaukee, Julia Boegholt, national committeewoman from Madison, Grethchen Pfankuchen. Many women with children and not working, including faculty wives, volunteered.
Tape/Side   13/2
Time   12:00
DANE COUNTY DOC ACTIVITIES
Scope and Content Note: Held weekly meetings in members' houses. Usually, Carl Thompson would report on political activity in specific areas of the state. Thompson very systematic and energetic. Much Party spirit in Madison. Madison state headquarters and training ground for state workers. Virginia Hart made a few speeches but was not involved much in county organizing.
Tape/Side   13/2
Time   14:55
DOC ISSUES
Scope and Content Note: Issues: the economy, civil rights, peace, recognition of unions, collective bargaining, minimum wage, constitutional amendment to abolish the poll tax, farm issues, international issues--supported U.N., Marshall Plan, Truman's “Point Four” (technical assistance to the Third World).
Tape/Side   13/2
Time   19:25
THE ADMINISTRATIVE COMMITTEE
Scope and Content Note: Elections to Committee held at state convention. Members included national committee people, Party state officers, representatives of the ten districts. Discussed Party management, not policy. Raised money. Headquarters usually did not give local candidates money. Members: John Gronouski, tax specialist, was revenue secretary; Dave Carley, secretary; Mary Rohlich, active volunteer.
Tape/Side   13/2
Time   24:00
HORACE WILKIE CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: Wilkie had leading post in U.S. Bureau of the Budget, knew how to get things done in Washington. A vigorous campaigner. Henry Hart drafted almost all speeches for Wilkie in 1950 campaign. Strategy involved attacking Glenn Davis for soft anti-Communist attitude. MacArthur entered China just before election. Voters in second district disapproved--this became sole issue of election. Hart organized other writers for 1950 campaign and wrote for Wilkie in other campaigns.
Tape/Side   13/2
Time   28:10
END OF TAPE 13, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   14/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   14/1
Time   00:30
PAT LUCEY
Scope and Content Note: Ran for Congress before he finished Assembly term. From third district. Virginia Hart et al. assembled a group of speechwriters from University faculty, including Henry Hart.
Tape/Side   14/1
Time   03:10
MADISON DEMOCRATIC PARTY MAKE-UP
Scope and Content Note: Considered eggheads by Milwaukee Democrats. Headquarters, including Virginia Hart, tried to recruit people from both east and west sides of town. Bud Morton on County Board. Bob Prideaux steelworker, involved in Party. In middle 1950s, Virginia Hart on Executive Board of Dane County Club. Non-University people found role in Party through city politics.
Tape/Side   14/1
Time   04:45
IVAN NESTINGEN'S CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: Elected with Democratic Party support. Madison had “city manager” government in late 1940s, allowing a declining business elite to keep control of city government. Challenged by Capital Times, Democratic Party, trade unions, activists. Union people got more say on City Council under ward system. Under “city manager” system five councilers elected on city-wide basis.
Tape/Side   14/1
Time   07:35
NESTINGEN'S ADMINISTRATION, FRANK LLOYD WRIGHT AUDITORIUM
Scope and Content Note: Nestingen made many appointments from Democratic Party, e.g. Jim Doyle appointed Police and Fire Commissioner. Nestingen supported by west side university people motivated by “the good of the city”, east side people motivated by availability of construction jobs. That coalition held until Henry Reynolds elected mayor. Reynolds represented conservative, Republican, business interests. Frank Lloyd Wright proposal spearheaded by small group of University people, particularly Harold Groves and Mary Lescohier, later Mary Ahmond. Carroll Metzner, attorney, was principal opponent.
Tape/Side   14/1
Time   12:10
VIRGINIA HART ON LEADING DEMOCRATS
Scope and Content Note: Carl Thompson --workhorse in legislature, committed to structure and organization. Drove long distances at night to promote Democratic cause in state. Gave Virginia Hart ideas on policy implementation
Gaylord Nelson --debonair, entertaining, amusing
Jim Doyle --”brains” of the Party, good speechwriter, knowledgeable about Washington and international scene
Andy Biemiller --Virginia did not know him until he was in Congress, helpful with Washington contacts
Bob Tehan --great charmer, big, imposing, great storyteller, gregarious
Julia Boegholt --only woman in “inner circle” because she held only post open to women, national committeewoman.
Tape/Side   14/1
Time   19:25
HENRY HART ON LEADING DEMOCRATS
Scope and Content Note: Carl Thompson --not eloquent, unemotional, very systematic
Jim Doyle --cosmopolitan, went to Columbia law school, clerked with James Byrnes, FDR's “assistant president”. Took part in many international relations policy decisions. Very eloquent, passionate speaker
Gaylord Nelson --came through La Follette movement, good speaker
John Lawton --Very close friend of Gaylord Nelson, both law students. They brought suit against Judge Ervin Bruner and others claiming that the legislature had been unconstitutionally elected because districts had not been reapportioned for decades. Suit got plaintiffs' names known. Lawton did AFSCME organizing upon graduation from law school.
Tape/Side   14/1
Time   25:10
ROLE OF THE NEWSPAPERS IN DEMOCRATIC CAUSE
Scope and Content Note: Newspaperman Miles McMillin very involved in building Party. William Proxmire was Capital Times reporter in 1949, organized Newspaper Guild. Also put on weekly radio show sponsored by Madison unions. Capital Times reporters active in challenging conservative Republicans. Ed Bayley of the Milwaukee Journal and Bob Fleming also supported Democrats.
Tape/Side   14/1
Time   28:05
END OF TAPE 14, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   14/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   14/2
Time   00:30
HOWARD McMURRAY CAMPAIGN AND ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: National Democratic Party position very similar to Wisconsin Progressive Party position. McMurray thought he could get Progressive support if Bob La Follette was eliminated from Senate race. McMurray, an instructor at the University, took leave to run. Was denied reappointment after his loss in 1946. Political science faculty strongly recommended his reappointment. Capital Times attacked Regents, all Republicans, denial of reappointment. McMuarray was outgoing, politically active and ambitious.
Tape/Side   14/2
Time   06:40
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/15
Subseries: Erich Lenz, 1983 May 26
Note: Access online.
Tape/Side   15/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   15/1
Time   00:45
POLITICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Helped organize and work for the Farmers Coop Oil Company in Merrill in 1931. Elected to Midland Cooperatives Wholesale (MCW) board of directors. Served four years, until 1942 or 1943. Also served as secretary of MCW. Became first secretary of Wisconsin Association of Cooperatives (WAC) in 1945 in Madison. Served until 1948. Then bought half interest in Hanley Implement Company in Sun Prairie.
Tape/Side   15/1
Time   05:35
PERSONAL HISTORY
Scope and Content Note: Born in Danzig (now Gdansk) in 1908. Came to U.S. in 1921. Spent three years in concentration camp in Siberia. Returned to Germany in 1918.
Tape/Side   15/1
Time   08:25
FARMERS COOP OIL COMPANY
Scope and Content Note: Managed oil coop until 1945. Formed coop because farmers needed good inexpensive merchandise. Coop expanded to other goods in 1938 or 1939, e.g. groceries. Opposition from oil companies, hardware store, grocery store.
Tape/Side   15/1
Time   10:50
MIDLAND COOPERATIVES WHOLESALE
Scope and Content Note: Describes elements of coop--four gas stations, etc. Does not know who appointed him secretary.
Tape/Side   15/1
Time   12:15
WISCONSIN ASSOCIATION OF COOPERATIVES
Scope and Content Note: Minimally involved in formation of WAC. Lenz operated only in Lincoln County. Various agricultural groups, and a few city coops in the later years, wanted to form a state organization to attend to their political needs. City coops needed to align with the more numerous agricultural coops to exert influence. Not much conflict between the two groups. Meetings on WAC held in different districts. Superior had a large grocery coop. Coop movement active in all parts of the state. State divided into five districts. Lenz attended meetings all over the state.
Tape/Side   15/1
Time   16:20
WAC INVOLVEMENT IN POLITICS
Scope and Content Note: WAC very politically active. Lenz supervised two people who lobbied in state capitol. Lobbying issues--taxes, bills affecting farmers. Does not recall which legislators were sympathetic. Lenz helped get legislation passed concerning health.
Tape/Side   15/1
Time   20:20
WISCONSIN FEDERATION OF COOPS
Scope and Content Note: After Lenz retired he worked for WFC for eight years as manager and sales consultant. Two coop groups merged to become the WFC. Had no difficulties with the Council of Agriculture, which later had financial problems.
Tape/Side   15/1
Time   22:30
RURAL ELECTRIFICATION ADMINISTRATION
Scope and Content Note: Was a member, then quit.
Tape/Side   15/1
Time   22:45
END OF TAPE 15, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   15/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   15/2
Time   00:30
WISCONSIN ASSOCIATION OF COOPS
Scope and Content Note: Anecdotes about Lenz's function as executive secretary of retaining coop members.
Tape/Side   15/2
Time   03:00
POLITICAL AFFILIATION
Scope and Content Note: A Democrat. Had good relations with Bill Evjue. Met Truman, Wallace. Voted for first time in 1928--Progressive on state level, Democrat on national level. Supported Progressive movement to Democratic Party. Refused to run for office. Was asked to be State Treasurer--refused.
Tape/Side   15/2
Time   09:00
THE DEMOCRATS AND THE COOPERATIVES
Scope and Content Note: Lenz spoke at district meetings in support of Democrats. Coop members generally supported Progressives' movement to Democratic Party. Lenz knew both Bob La Follettes. A majority of farmers were coop members--support of Democrats spread by informal personal interaction. Both Democrats and coops supported dividend taxation, support of farmers.
Tape/Side   15/2
Time   11:50
WORLD WAR II AND FARMERS
Scope and Content Note: War affected many farmers. Farmers divided on isolationist issue. Anecdote about Republican farmer in Lincoln county who voted Democrat.
Tape/Side   15/2
Time   14:25
THE YOUNG PROGRESSIVES
Scope and Content Note: Lenz held coffee for Nelson. Nelson ran very clean campaign. Knew Carl Thompson, Thompson supported coops. Knew Jim Doyle.
Tape/Side   15/2
Time   17:30
POLITICAL ACTIVITY OF COOPS
Scope and Content Note: Instrumental in electing certain Democrats. Worked closely with organized labor.
Tape/Side   15/2
Time   19:35
PERSONAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Very poor. Completed eighth grade. Went to business college in Merrill.
Tape/Side   15/2
Time   21:30
WISCONSIN ASSOCIATION OF COOPS
Scope and Content Note: Jack Tyler succeeded Lenz as executive secretary. He often conferred with Lenz, made few changes. Lenz's staff consisted of one woman and two men (lobbyists and organizers).
Tape/Side   15/2
Time   23:30
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/16
Subseries: Esther Lawton, 1983 May 31
Note: Access online.
Tape/Side   16/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   16/1
Time   01:00
INITIAL INVOLVEMENT WITH DEMOCRATS
Scope and Content Note: Held weekly coffees/work groups in her home in the third ward. Mostly blue collar workers with no Party affiliation attended, mostly women and a few men. Would work on material sent to them by state headquarters--clerical work. Before 1948 Lawton typed addressograph plates.
Tape/Side   16/1
Time   04:35
1948 ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: Delivered Mutual Assistance--political newspaper listing state and local candidates.
Tape/Side   16/1
Time   06:05
FIRST POLITICAL INVOLVEMENT
Scope and Content Note: Worked for Progressives statewide. As a student she spent much time listening to the Assembly. Became acquainted with every assemblyperson and senator.
Tape/Side   16/1
Time   08:25
1948 ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: Delivered Mutual Assistance door-to-door. Received them from Fran Rose.
Tape/Side   16/1
Time   11:45
1950
Scope and Content Note: Held work groups in her home. Leafleted and delivered Mutual Assistance.
Tape/Side   16/1
Time   13:20
POLITICAL ACTIVITIES IN EARLY 1950s
Scope and Content Note: 1951 moved to Crestwood where people were much more politically involved. Leafleted with three or four women, only during campaigns. (Lists names of active women and a few men.) Many women also did clerical work and enlisted their children's help. Chairman of countywide telephone committee for one year. Used telephone to spread word of social and political events because it was inexpensive. Very little money available.
Tape/Side   16/1
Time   21:25
STATE HEADQUARTERS
Scope and Content Note: Used to do clerical work at state headquarters at night sometimes. Headquarters was two or three rooms. Fran Rose, executive secretary, ran office in the early 1950s. Also Janet Lee.
Tape/Side   16/1
Time   25:50
MEETINGS AT THE AMLIES
Scope and Content Note: Attended one or two. Was then working full-time as receptionist at Wisconsin General Hospital.
Tape/Side   16/1
Time   27:20
END OF TAPE 16, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   16/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   16/2
Time   00:30
MEETINGS AT THE AMLIES (continued)
Scope and Content Note: Does not recall.
Tape/Side   16/2
Time   00:55
PROGRESSIVE PARTY WORK
Scope and Content Note: Did clerical work for Progressive Party while a student, 1938 or 1939.
Tape/Side   16/2
Time   01:50
STATE CONVENTIONS
Scope and Content Note: Attended only one convention after receiving her Masters degree. Had always attended conventions before then. Did not attend 1950 convention. Had attended Progressive conventions including the Fond du Lac convention. Bob La Follette thought Progressives could continue winning as Republicans. Many people thought they should take over Democratic Party instead of Republican Party. Started going to conventions in 1952.
Tape/Side   16/2
Time   08:30
DANE COUNTY CITIZENS COMMITTEE, HARRY TRUMAN'S VISIT TO MADISON, JULIA BOEGHOLT
Scope and Content Note: Does not recall.
Tape/Side   16/2
Time   9:45
MILES MCMILLIN
Scope and Content Note: A writer, knew him socially.
Tape/Side   16/2
Time   11:50
GAYLORD NELSON
Scope and Content Note: Very political, knew him socially.
Tape/Side   16/2
Time   13:05
AMERICAN VETERANS COMMITTEE
Scope and Content Note: Husband not involved, knew little about this organization.
Tape/Side   16/2
Time   13:40
CARL THOMPSON
Scope and Content Note: Knew him.
Tape/Side   16/2
Time   14:25
CONVENTIONS IN THE 1950s
Scope and Content Note: Went to conventions as delegate from Dane County until 1955 or 1956.
Tape/Side   16/2
Time   17:25
GAYLORD NELSON'S 1960 GUBERNATORIAL CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: Worked very hard on campaign. Conducted campaign on $30,000. Organized a Nelson For Governor club in every county. Also did bookkeeping. Anecdote about Nelson and hitchhiker in northern Wisconsin.) (Lists people who worked closely with Nelson on campaign.
Tape/Side   16/2
Time   25:00
NELSON'S 1962 CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: Lawton did not think that Nelson could lose, but Nelson thought he might. Nelson ran a very hard campaign. Lawton was bookkeeper for statewide committee.
Tape/Side   16/2
Time   27:45
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/17-18
Subseries: Gehrta Amlie, 1983 June 1
Note: Access online.
Tape/Side   17/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   17/1
Time   00:45
PERSONAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Born in Rome, New York, 1898. Lived in many places in the United States and Europe. Parents were politically conscious. Gives family background. Living in Berlin when World War I started. Came to New York, then Wisconsin in 1919. Went to University in Madison--interested in dance. Married eight years, then married Amlie in 1932. Met him in law school. Became Amlie's housekeeper after his wife died. Amlie was very poor, had four children. Discusses Amlie's early years.
Tape/Side   17/1
Time   09:45
TOM AMLIE'S FIRST CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: In 1930 Tom Morrissey and a few others in Elkhorn who did not think that La Follette was radical enough suggested that Amlie run for Congress. Both Amlies were Progressives. Ran as a liberal Progressive. Phil La Follette helped campaign. Gehrta was taking care of Tom's children, could not help campaign much directly. After Tom's election Amlies lived in Washington, 1930-1932. Amlie was very poor, from the country, knew nothing about Washington.
Tape/Side   17/1
Time   16:50
TOM AMLIE AND THE LA FOLLETTES
Scope and Content Note: Defeated in 1932 because Phil La Follette insisted that Amlie run as a Progressive Republican. Tom became a Democrat in 1934, ran for Senate in 1938. Phil La Follette very bitter that he (La Follette) lost election. Went to Germany, was inspired by Hitler's methods. Tom tried to get Progressives to join Democrats.
Tape/Side   17/1
Time   21:50
TOM AMLIE'S SUPPORT OF THE DEMOCRATS
Scope and Content Note: Thought Roosevelt could be influenced by Progressives. Did not believe that a three party system could work. Discussion of Roosevelt's first successful campaign in Wisconsin.
Tape/Side   17/1
Time   25:00
END of TAPE 17, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   17/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   17/2
Time   00:30
TOM AMLIE'S SUPPORT OF THE DEMOCRATS (continued)
Scope and Content Note: Phil La Follette caused the Progressives not to enter the Democratic Party. Amlie thought that Roosevelt's programs were too conservative. Gehrta Amlie supported Roosevelt because he gave people hope and took action against widespread despair and poverty.
Tape/Side   17/2
Time   02:15
HUNGER MARCHES ON WASHINGTON
Scope and Content Note: Poor people encamped in Washington to demand social legislation. Hoover drove them out of Washington. The Amlies put up eighty people from Wisconsin in their home.
Tape/Side   17/2
Time   07:35
POVERTY AND HUNGER
Scope and Content Note: Many people hungry. 'Churches reluctant to distribute food. Many children in Elkhorn starved. People relied on each other--received no help until Roosevelt. (Description of soup kitchens, sleep-ins.) Roosevelt's actions made people aware that something could be done.
Tape/Side   17/2
Time   11:30
HOOVER'S “INTERIM”
Scope and Content Note: Hoover never appeared in public November 1932-March 1933. Was afraid of the public.
Tape/Side   17/2
Time   12:25
TOM AMLIE, THE LA FOLLETTES
Scope and Content Note: The La Follettes tried to help the poor. Amllie returned to law practice after defeat in 1932, but did not do well. Gehrta helped him campaign in 1932, told him that he must address people's personal problems rather than discussing abstract theories. (Description of campaign.) Phil La Follette charismatic, Bob La Follette not. Amlie and La Follette often spoke together. Rachel La Follette was shy, did not campaign. 1936--Amlie spoke in storefronts. Gehrta also spoke, particularly at women's union meetings. Tom Amlie did not feel that the public understood his views.
Tape/Side   17/2
Time   17:45
THE UNEMPLOYED
Scope and Content Note: Times still hard in 1936. Throughout the early 1930s unemployed people would often come to the Amlie's door looking for work or food. There was a shelter in Elkhorn for sixteen people. The Amlies fed many people.
Tape/Side   17/2
Time   20:35
LAKE GENEVA CAMP, 1934
Scope and Content Note: Eleanor Roosevelt set up camps around the country for the unemployed. One was at Lake Geneva. The White House called the Amlies and asked them to put up people because the camp was full. They housed and fed thirty-four people.
Tape/Side   17/2
Time   23:00
END OF TAPE 17, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   18/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   18/1
Time   00:40
LAKE GENEVA CAMP, 1934 (continued)
Scope and Content Note: Gehrta drove the people from Lake Geneva and collected food from the Elkhorn community. This helped Tom's campaign. Some of the “campers” were puppeteers--they put on a show to raise money. People were very hungry.
Tape/Side   18/1
Time   04:40
THE NATIONAL PROGRESSIVE ASSOCIATION, THE STOCK PAVILLION RALLY
Scope and Content Note: The formation of this party surprised the Amlies. Rally was not publicized much. Amlies shocked that Phil La Follette did not tell them about the rally. Arthur Altmeyer informed Gehrta about the meeting. He, Aubrey Williams and Tom Amlie came from Washington to attend rally. Phil La Follette had discussed a third party for many years and held meetings in Madison to discuss it. He was afraid that he could not control the Democratic Party.
Tape/Side   18/1
Time   09:30
F.D. ROOSEVELT
Scope and Content Note: Does not recall Tom Amlie's-criticisms of Roosevelt. Tom thought that Roosevelt gave people hope.
Tape/Side   18/1
Time   11:20
DESCRIPTION OF TOM AMLIE'S PERSONALITY
Tape/Side   18/1
Time   11:50
LABOR
Scope and Content Note: Labor was major element in Amlie's election; labor support increased after Roosevelt's election.
Tape/Side   18/1
Time   12:20
TOM AMLIE AFTER HIS 1938 ELECTION LOSS
Scope and Content Note: Felt very defeated. Wrote Let's Look at the Record. (Discussion of other books Amlie wrote.) Roosevelt nominated him for Interstate Commerce Commission. Not confirmed. Wisconsin legislature named him a Communist. Amlie emotionally hurt because he was not confirmed. Was broken man after 1938. Gehrta worked hard to support the family.
Tape/Side   18/1
Time   18:50
AMLIE IN THE 1950s
Scope and Content Note: Meetings held at the Amlies to discuss the formation of new party. Dan Hoan was Tom's good friend. Tom lost faith that things could change. Thought that the Depression had only been alleviated by the war, that the economic system was based on war, that the military controlled the economy.
Tape/Side   18/1
Time   23:10
THE AMLIES' PART IN TRANSFORMING THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Did not have much influence over former Progressives. Felt deeply involved but hopeless. Considered post-World War I foreign policy wrong.
Tape/Side   18/1
Time   26:05
TOM AMLIE'S VIEWS ON LIBERAL MOVEMENTS 1945-1950
Scope and Content Note: Thought they were very weak, considered situation hopeless. Left Progressives in 1934. Always more radical than Democrats, did not believe America would go Socialist. Did not believe that identifying with the Socialists was practical.
Tape/Side   18/1
Time   28:30
AMLIE'S 1938 SENATE CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: Ran as a Democrat, which Gehrta opposed. Amlie believed his district was growing more conservative, that he did not have a chance. After 1938 he was completely disillusioned, turned to writing.
Tape/Side   18/1
Time   30:30
END OF TAPE 18, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   18/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   18/2
Time   00:30
TOM AMLIE'S VIEWS ON SOCIETY IN HIS LATER YEARS
Scope and Content Note: Was waiting for another depression. Believed that unless the country's economy was based on “production for use”, the rift between rich and poor would grow. Very disturbed about the state of the country.
Tape/Side   18/2
Time   01:50
TOM AMLIE'S SON TOM
Scope and Content Note: Was director of China Lake base. Now exposing the Pentagon's wasteful practices.
Tape/Side   18/2
Time   05:10
THE AMLIES' LIFE IN THE LATE 1940s AND AFTER
Scope and Content Note: Bought and improved land and houses. Only daughter, Marian-- born in 1943, married, lives in California. Gehrta ran a nursery school. Not involved much in Democratic campaign in the late 1940s. Held meetings and donated money. Gehrta now interested in the Women's International League for Peace and Freedom.
Tape/Side   18/2
Time   08:15
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/19-20
Subseries: Floyd Wheeler, 1983 June 1
Note: Access online.
Tape/Side   19/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   19/1
Time   01:05
PERSONAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Born in Beloit. Active in high school debating, YMCA. Graduated high school in 1922. Already a La Follette admirer. Had heard both Bob La Follettes speak. Parents were Republicans. Attended Beloit College.
Tape/Side   19/1
Time   06:45
TOM AMLIE IN BELOIT
Scope and Content Note: Very active in Non-Partisan League in Minnesota and North Dakota. Came to Beloit to join law firm. Belonged to YMCA where Wheeler worked. Amlie became Wheeler's mentor. (Anecdote about Glenn Frank and Amlie.) Amlie active in Beloit American Legion. Amlie moved to Elkhorn when Wheeler graduated from college.
Tape/Side   19/1
Time   11:30
1931 SPECIAL CONGRESSIONAL ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: Democrats conservative and weak before Roosevelt's election. Henry Allen Cooper died while in office. Amlie was Progressive Republican candidate in primary. Two conservatives split conservative vote, Amlie nominated, tantamount to election in strong Republican county. Wheeler graduated from law school in 1931.
Tape/Side   19/1
Time   14:10
FLOYD WHEELER 1931-1934
Scope and Content Note: Offered and refused a job in the attorney general's office. Practiced law 1931-1934. Not involved in 1931 Amlie campaign.
Tape/Side   19/1
Time   15:35
1932 ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: Wheeler active in Amlie's campaign. Amlie lost and practiced law in Elkhorn.
Tape/Side   19/1
Time   16:25
THE THIRD PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Amlie was prime motivating force for a third party in Wisconsin. Bob La Follette reluctantly supported idea. Phil La Follette supported formation of third party. Anecdote about Glenn Frank and Amlie.
Tape/Side   19/1
Time   18:55
CONFLICT BETWEEN AMLIE AND PHIL LA FOLLETTE
Scope and Content Note: Two were close until (1938) when Amlie ran agianst Herman Ekern, a Progressive and attorney general. Both of the La Follettes supported Ekern. Ekern won primary and lost election.
Tape/Side   19/1
Time   21:50
AMLIE'S PARTY AFFILIATION
Scope and Content Note: Dan Hoan influenced Amlie by joining Democrats. Amlie never supported Phil La Follette's attempt to form a national third party.
Tape/Side   19/1
Time   23:05
AMLIE/EKERN PRIMARY RACE
Scope and Content Note: Helen Wheeler active in Amlie campaign.
Tape/Side   19/1
Time   24:00
AMLIE AND THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Ran as Democrat in 1938 (Wheeler unsure) Active with Dan Hoan in early 1940s. Wheeler still in touch with Amlie when he moved from Washington to Madison, but not much after his loss of Senate race. Amlie not very successful lawyer in Madison. Helped draft platform planks for Democrats, had following among “new” Democrats, e.g. Carl Thmopson. Embittered that the La Follettes abandoned him.
Tape/Side   19/1
Time   28:50
END OF TAPE 19, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   19/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   19/2
Time   00:30
AMLIE'S LATER YEARS
Scope and Content Note: Thought that younger people in Democratic Party did not appreciate him. Was sick at the end of his life.
Tape/Side   19/2
Time   03:15
WHEELER'S VIEW OF AMLIE
Scope and Content Note: Was honest, intelligent, had “unique and thoughtful approach to social problems.” Amlie's ideas often lacked supporters because they were ahead of their time.
Tape/Side   19/2
Time   04:10
HELENE WHEELER
Scope and Content Note: Second or third Chairman of Democratic Club. Vice Chairman when Horace Wilkie was Chairman. Active in Stevenson's 1952 campaign.
Tape/Side   19/2
Time   05:05
AMLIE'S CANDIDACY FOR ATTORNEY GENERAL
Scope and Content Note: Wheelers urged Dick Barber to run at the 1946 or 1948 convention in Eau Claire. Then Amlie announced candidacy--this put the Wheelers in a delicate situation. Amlie might have been embittered when Barber won.
Tape/Side   19/2
Time   06:30
AMLIE AND COMMUNISM
Scope and Content Note: Was left of most Democrats but not a Communist. 1932 Wisconsin legislature passed resolution declaring opposition to Roosevelt's appointment of Amlie to Interstate Commerce Commission because of Amlie's supposed Communist affiliation.
Tape/Side   19/2
Time   08:00
AMLIE'S PERSONALITY
Scope and Content Note: Shy, retiring, good sense of humor. Humerous anecdote about Amlie and doctor in Beloit.
Tape/Side   19/2
Time   10:30
AMLIE'S FAMILY
Scope and Content Note: First son died of tuberculosis. Gehrta took charge of family in Elkhorn.
Tape/Side   19/2
Time   12:40
AMLIE AS LAWYER IN ELKHORN
Scope and Content Note: Worked in law firm with conservative Republicans. Anecdote about Amlie's novel method of handling adultery case.
Tape/Side   19/2
Time   17:30
AMLIE'S POLITICAL INVOLVEMENT AFTER 1945
Scope and Content Note: Active in Democratic Club. Influenced both Wheelers.
Tape/Side   19/2
Time   18:00
WHEELERS' POLITICAL ACTIVITY
Scope and Content Note: Both active in Phil La Follette's 1931 campaign. Disturbed by La Follette's Stock Pavillion speech. Helene was office manager for Bill Rice's congressional campaign, and for Carl Thompson's congressional and both gubernatorial campaigns. Helene but not Floyd active in Dane County Democratic Club.
Tape/Side   19/2
Time   23:10
FLOYD WHEELER'S INVOLVEMENT WITH COOPERATIVES
Scope and Content Note: First involved in 1936. Studied at Harvard for a year. Returned to Wisconsin, worked on unemployment compensation program for three months. Appointed assistant council of the Public Service Commission. Worked in Rural Electrification Coordination Office, 1936. Has represented coops on a private basis since then.
Tape/Side   19/2
Time   26:20
1952 CAMPAIGNS
Scope and Content Note: Ruth Doyle and others urged Wheeler to run for Assembly seat she was vacating. Ran against Ted Boyle and was elected. Carl Thompson won eastern district of Dane County, Erv Bruner won western district. Thompson was hospitalized for much of first session.
Tape/Side   19/2
Time   29:45
END OF TAPE 19, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   20/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   20/1
Time   00:30
RURAL ELECTRIFICATION PROGRAM
Scope and Content Note: Loomis was first coordinator. Conservatives also strongly supported program. Rural Electrification Administration was theoretically bipartisan, but dominated by Progressives.
Tape/Side   20/1
Time   03:40
WISCONSIN DEVELOPMENT ACT
Scope and Content Note: Phil La Follette was very active proponent of Act and got it passed but Supreme Court narrowed its scope.
Tape/Side   20/1
Time   04:10
ROLE OF COOPS IN FORMATION OF NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Coop leadership assisted Hoan. Earl Stoneman, active in agricultural coops, ran for Secretary of State and lost.
Tape/Side   20/1
Time   05:35
OSCAR (RENNEBOHM) LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR
Scope and Content Note: Anecdote about incidence of his foolish behavior in the legislature.
Tape/Side   20/1
Time   06:55
THE COOP'S POLITICAL INVOLVEMENT
Scope and Content Note: State law prohibited coops from campaigning but leaders were largely Progressives and, later, Democrats who aired their views. After Loomis died, the coops supported the Democrats. Discussion of Loomis' role in coops.
Tape/Side   20/1
Time   10:35
HUBERT HUMPHREY AND THE COOPS
Scope and Content Note: Gave long speeches at Eau Claire convention about what Democrats had done in the Rural Electrification program. Became a leader of coops. Had long supported coops. Anecdote about Wheeler meeting Humphrey.
Tape/Side   20/1
Time   13:25
ERICH LENZ
Scope and Content Note: Wheeler knew him well. First met him when he was secretary of the Wisconsin Association of Coops. The rural coops were in the forefront of liberal causes.
Tape/Side   20/1
Time   15:10
WHEELER'S 1952 ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: Represented tenth district. Later defeated by Metzner; this concluded Wheeler's involvement in electoral politics. Discussion of Metzner.
Tape/Side   20/1
Time   17:50
FRANK ANTOINE
Scope and Content Note: Wheeler knew him when he (Wheeler) did work for Crawford Electric and the Tri-State Power Cooperative. Antoine probably an active Democrat.
Tape/Side   20/1
Time   19:50
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/21-22
Subseries: John Moses, 1983 June 3
Note: Access online.
Tape/Side   21/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   21/1
Time   00:50
BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Came to Wisconsin from North Dakota after leaving military. Family involved in Democratic Party. Attended University of Wisconsin in Madison 1946-1951.
Tape/Side   21/1
Time   02:00
THE YOUNG DEMOCRATS
Scope and Content Note: County officer in North Dakota, attended conventions in North Dakota and Wisconsin. Distinction between members of the Young Democrats and the statutory Party was not age. Rather, those involved in Party were more serious, professional. One task of Democratic Organizing Committee (DOC) was to make the Young Democrats more attractive to young people and more dynamic. Moses had task of involving young people, mostly university students, in the restructuring of the Young Democrats. Drafted new constitution in 1949, names major assistants. Young Democrats were auxiliary of DOC, but occasionally took independent stand. Young Democrats made more attractive by providing for their representation and limiting the members' age to about twenty-five, except for veterans.
Tape/Side   21/1
Time   08:10
OPPOSITION TO CHANGES IN THE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Mostly from middle-aged members of Party who held little power. Cecil Brown opposed change.
Tape/Side   21/1
Time   09:15
INFLUENCE OF YOUNG DEMOCRATS ON DOC
Scope and Content Note: Young Democrats' members largely students, many of whom were veterans who eventually became active in Party, e.g. Thompson, Doyle, Wilkie; they changed composition of Party.
Tape/Side   21/1
Time   10:00
THE AMERICAN VETERANS COMMITTEE (AVC)
Scope and Content Note: Many people active in Young Democrats and later active in Party were AVC members, lists names. Moses met many at meetings on campus. Many World War II veterans did not consider American Legion as relevant to their world but wanted to participate in a veterans organization. Amvets was organization for World War II veterans, but modeled on the American Legion. AVC more concerned with politics than parades, etc. AVC had rules against participation in partisan politics, but many individuals were active in strengthening liberal Democrats. Moses active in AVC Stoughton chapter.
Tape/Side   21/1
Time   17:45
HORACE WILKIE
Scope and Content Note: Parents were Progressives. Father was prominent attorney. Horace was liberal, methodical, represented younger liberal elements in Progressive Party.
Tape/Side   21/1
Time   20:00
THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN NORTH DAKOTA
Scope and Content Note: Moses' father was governor three terms, then United States Senator. Old Democrats in North Dakota and Wisconsin opposed new Democrats' power because it would take control of the patronage system away from them.
Tape/Side   21/1
Time   20:50
AWARENESS OF THE CHANGE IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AMONG RETURNING VETERANS
Scope and Content Note: Carl Thompson's near victory in 1947 made people aware, as did the Communist influence in the labor unions and Bob La Follette's defeat. AVC important in focusing and clarifying opinions among liberal veterans.
Tape/Side   21/1
Time   25:05
REACTION TO LA FOLLETTE'S ISOLATIONISM
Scope and Content Note: Many young people opposed this stance. Before the war, many future veterans supported isolationism, but their war experience convinced them that it was wrong. Became fearful and suspicious of the Soviet Union.
Tape/Side   21/1
Time   27:40
END OF TAPE 21, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   21/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   21/2
Time   00:30
MOSES' PARTY ACTIVITIES IN THE 1950s
Scope and Content Note: Hired to conduct recount for close election in Vernon County. Often asked to assist Democrats in various ways, e.g. lined up slates of candidates in early 1950s.
Tape/Side   21/2
Time   01:45
MOSES AS FUND RAISER, PAT LUCEY
Scope and Content Note: Lucey hired as fund raiser in 1950 after his defeat in the Congressional election. He had been in the Assembly before that. Moses succeeded him in this post. Lucey was a hard worker, knew many people, was a vigorous fund raiser. (Outline of Moses' and Lucey's fund raising strategies.) Moses became acquainted with many postmasters in the state. Responsible for entire state, covered areas where Lucey had never been active.
Tape/Side   21/2
Time   06:40
MOSES AS BUSINESS MANAGER OF WISCONSIN DEMOCRAT
Scope and Content Note: Manager 1948-1952. Paper outlined issues for use by candidates. Miles McMillin prepared program papers on state issues, Moses covered national issues. Sent out to candidates at all levels. (Describes process of preparing paper, people involved, issues.) Paper first issued in 1949; monthly tabloid, available by subscription. Included articles on issues, much background material on issues, news of internal activities. Moses moved to Gay Mills in 1952.
Tape/Side   21/2
Time   12:10
MILES McMILLIN
Scope and Content Note: Good friend of Moses. Went to law school in Madison. Moses got to know him in 1948. McMillin was editorial writer for the Capital Times. Worked with Moses on the Wisconsin Democrat and on Carl Thompson's campaign. Moses was campaign manager. McMillin was close to Bill Evjue, was his protege. The Capital Times tried to project image of being independent; would occasionally criticize Democrats.
Tape/Side   21/2
Time   18:20
DEMOCRATIC PARTY BEFORE 1947
Scope and Content Note: Dominated by conservatives. A few people, e.g. Jerry Fox, Bob Tehan worked hard to liberalize Party and attract young people.
Tape/Side   21/2
Time   20:25
JULIA BOEGHOLT
Scope and Content Note: Very energetic, hard worker, liberal. Disappointed that Party made compromises on liberal issues, worked hard to prevent this. Very involved in Democratic Organizing Committee. Quit Party because of compromises Party made on issues on which Boegholt had worked hard. Did not agree with ideological changes being made or people involved.
Tape/Side   21/2
Time   24:10
TOM AMLIE, ROSALIE M0RTON
Scope and Content Note: Had been Congressman from first district. One of more radical of New Dealers. A fighter. By the time Moses got involved in Party, Amlie was disillusioned with Party, considered too far left. Rosalie Morton, Amlie's sister, served as Moses' secretary during Carl Thompson's campaign. Amlie never discussed idea of third party with Moses. Midwestern third party strategy was to operate within an established party and split the primary vote.
Tape/Side   21/2
Time   28:45
MOSES ACTIVITIES IN 1948
Scope and Content Note: Entered law school that year. Spent much time on Party activities, neglected school work.
Tape/Side   21/2
Time   29:20
END OF TAPE 21, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   22/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   22/1
Time   00:30
1948 ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: A few young liberals from Democratic Organizing Committee (DOC) elected--Pat Lucey, Ruth Doyle. Determined to exert liberal influence in legislature. Many students who had helped campaign later assisted (researched, drafted legislation, etc.) newly elected DOC members who had no staff and no money. Moses did this through 1949. Worked for Lucey, George Molinaro, Tom Taylor. Wrote program papers for campaign. Sometimes drove Carl Thompson to speaking engagements. Thompson's campaign very small, handled by himself and Party headquarters.
Tape/Side   22/1
Time   03:45
CARL THOMPSON
Scope and Content Note: Knowledgeable about issues, dramatic, well-received, diplomatic.
Tape/Side   22/1
Time   06:15
THOMPSON'S 1950 GUBERNATORIAL CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: First campaign for which Democrats had formalized plan for campaign. Had very little money. Rosalie Morton, Mary McMillin were two principal, unpaid secretaries. Moses was campaign director. Many public relations staff members were Daily Cardinal staff members. (Discusses public relations process.)(Anecdote about speech written for Thompson about the State Traffic Patrol.) Tom Taylor scheduled speeches. Korean war caused disaffectation among Democrats, especially Catholics. This issue caused Thompson to lose the election. Thompson exhausted after election, had to be hospitalized. (Describes actual campaigning.) Some money for campaign came from individuals, but most came from the Congress of Industrial Organizations (CIO). Tom Fairchild fiscally supported by the American Federation of Labor. CIO support of Thompson was not widely known--generated no anti-Communist reaction.
Tape/Side   22/1
Time   22:25
FARM ORGANIZATIONS
Scope and Content Note: Farm Bureau generally supported Republicans. Farmers Union provided substantial public relations support for Democrats.
Tape/Side   22/1
Time   23:25
COOPERATIVES
Scope and Content Note: Erich Lenz considered friendly to Democrats. Coops had no money to donate to Democrats. People involved in Rural Electrification Administration (REA) supported Democrats but REA paper was required to be non-partisan.
Tape/Side   22/1
Time   25:00
EDDIE MESHESKI
Scope and Content Note: Known as Father Mesheski. Very friendly, dedicated, liberal. Worked as accountant in Milwuakee. Chairman of Party in Milwaukee. Good diplomat with an effective county organization. Moses worked closely with him. At that time Moses met Jean Lucey, secretary of Party in Milwaukee.
Tape/Side   22/1
Time   27:00
CONFLICT BETWEEN MILWAUKEE AND MADISON DEMOCRATS, 1950
Scope and Content Note: Sharp disagreements between individuals, especially old conservatives and young liberals, rather than organizations. Conservatives strongest in Milwaukee. Mesheski unified all factions in Milwaukee.
Tape/Side   22/1
Time   28:20
END OF TAPE 22, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   22/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   22/2
Time   00:30
CONFLICT BETWEEN MILWAUKEE AND MADISON DEMOCRATS, 1950 (continued)
Scope and Content Note: Moses spent one or two days a week in Milwaukee during campaign. Definite friction between old conservatives in Milwaukee and young liberals in Madison. Reuss and Fairchild considered respectable, unlike “radical” Madison people. Two groups came into contact at regular DOC meetings and at campaign planning meetings.
Tape/Side   22/2
Time   04:40
1950 FAIRCHILD CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: Virginia Hart was director of campaign. Moses got to know her well during campaign. AFL gave Fairchild considerable financial support.
Tape/Side   22/2
Time   05:55
MOSES' ACTIVITY AFTER LEAVING PARTY POST
Scope and Content Note: Left fundraising position in 1952 to practice law in conservative Crawford County. Worked on Greg Lucey's assembly campaign in late 1952. Became known as a Democrat.
Tape/Side   22/2
Time   07:35
NORMAN CLAPP
Scope and Content Note: Moses deeply involved in Clapp's 1954, 1956, 1958 congressional campaigns. (Description of Clapp's background.) Moses was either secretary-treasurer or chairman of campaign. Spent much time campaigning. Had cordial relations with conservative Republicans in county.
Tape/Side   22/2
Time   10:20
JESS MILLER
Scope and Content Note: State senator from Richland County. (Humerous anecdote about Miller and Moses.) Staunch conservative Republican, physically imposing.
Tape/Side   22/2
Time   11:20
DIFFERENCES BETWEEN POLICIES IN THE 1940s and 1950s AND POLITICS TODAY
Scope and Content Note: People then were idealistic, enthusiastic. Today there are few idealists. People enter politics to realize personal ambitions. As the Democrats gained power and strength, a new breed entered Party. It is tightly disciplined now.
Tape/Side   22/2
Time   14:50
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/23-24
Subseries: Esther Kaplan, 1983 June 7
Note: Access online
Tape/Side   23/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   23/1
Time   00:40
POLITICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Volunteer for Bill Rice's 1946 campaign for Congress. Did clerical work. Served as treasurer for Horace Wilkie's 1948 campaign for Congress. Very active full-time volunteer. Membership Secretary of Dane County Democratic Club. 1952--paid Finance Secretary. 1954--managed Gaylord Nelson's campaign for Congress. 1958--Treasurer for Nelson's campaign for Congress. Became Nelson's personal secretary when he was elected. Treasurer for his two campaigns for Senate. Treasurer for Lucey For Governor Committee. Treasurer for Carley committee. Got involved in politics through a friend in political science department working on Rice campaign. Worked with Helene Wheeler, E.B. Raushenbush, Gerta Amlie.
Tape/Side   23/1
Time   05:10
HELENE WHEELER IN 1946 RICE CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: Campaign manager. Capable, well organized, very nice. Directed small volunteer force. Does not recall Wheeler's activites as manager.
Tape/Side   23/1
Time   06:50
DESCRIPTION OF CAMPAIGN OFFICE' PHYSICAL LAYOUT
Tape/Side   23/1
Time   08:00
1948 CAMPAIGN ACTIVITIES
Scope and Content Note: Did bulk mailing, gathered lists of names. By 1948 had more money and volunteers. Main activity was postering. Did some radio advertising.
Tape/Side   23/1
Time   10:50
CAMPAIGN BUDGETS
Scope and Content Note: Nelson's 1954 campaign for Congress--budget--$15,000. Nelson's gubernatorial campaign budget--$129,000.
Tape/Side   23/1
Time   13:30
E.B. RAUSHENBUSH
Scope and Content Note: Kaplan took economics course from Raushenbush. Raushenbush organized bulk mailings, was very poorly organized. Kaplan was not in policy-making at that time.
Tape/Side   23/1
Time   17:30
DANE COUNTY DEMOCRATIC CLUB
Scope and Content Note: Not more than one hundred members in the early 1950s. Very much a social club dominated by west side academics and lawyers. Held meetings in the Labor Temple, the Women's Club, other places. Discussed recruitment of candidates, organizational activities, resolutions to present at conventions, the constitution, some issues, but not an issue-oriented group.
Tape/Side   23/1
Time   24:40
HORACE WILKIE, 1952 CAMPAIGNS, PARTY HEADQUARTERS
Scope and Content Note: By 1952 Party had larger headquarters at 18 1/2 East Mifflin Street. Wilkie campaign was run from headquarters. Headquarters first located on University Avenue in Tom Amlie's law office. Then in Ole Stollen's office on Main Street. Stollen was attorney, former Progressive, Democrat. Much activity of Wilkie campaign centered in Wilkie home. By 1952 campaign procedures had become standardized. Published newsletter, weekly or monthly.
Tape/Side   23/1
Time   29:35
END OF TAPE 23, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   23/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   23/2
Time   00:30
HORACE WILKIE 1952 CAMPAIGN (continued)
Scope and Content Note: Newsletter sent to most active campaign workers. Contained campaign news. Campaign consisted of touring in a mobile home and speaking.
Tape/Side   23/2
Time   03:15
CAMPAIGN FUND RAISING ACTIVITIES
Scope and Content Note: Primary method--sent requests for contributions to people whose names were on lists of likely supporters. Held fund raising dinners. Anecdote about cost of fund raising dinners.
Tape/Side   23/2
Time   05:20
DELEGATE TO STATE CONVENTION
Scope and Content Note: Attended every convention from 1948 until recently.
Tape/Side   23/2
Time   05:50
THE DEMOCRATIC ORGANIZING COMMITTEE
Scope and Content Note: Formation of DOC did not affect organizations operation at local level Names of people active in DOC listed. DOC was very Madison oriented.
Tape/Side   23/2
Time   07:25
JERRY FOX
Scope and Content Note: Bridge to old Democrats. First DOC Chairman. Kaplan spent a week at Fox home going through files to find names of potential contributors.
Tape/Side   23/2
Time   10:00
JULIA BOEGHOLT
Scope and Content Note: National Committeewoman, but worked very much at local level. Kaplan did not know her at that time.
Tape/Side   23/2
Time   11:50
BOB TEHAN
Scope and Content Note: Friendly, Irish, suave, gregarious, diplomatic. Kaplan did not know him well.
Tape/Side   23/2
Time   13:45
1948 CONVENTION
Scope and Content Note: Took place at Central High School. Packy McParland was Chairman of convention. Many people, including Kaplan, discussed approaching Eisenhower to run. McParland halted discussion of possible Eisenhower nomination. Kaplan was bitter about this. Anecdote about Kaplan not voting for McParland.
Tape/Side   23/2
Time   20:30
1952 SENATE RACE
Scope and Content Note: Fairchild supporters were mainly from Madison. Reuss supporters mainly from Milwaukee. Gretchen Pfankuchen supported Reuss. Fairchild ran reluctantly. Kaplan and others gathered signatures to place Fairchild on the ballot. Very emotional campaign because of McCarthy. Neither Reuss nor Fairchild was charismatic. Financial help came from outside the state to defeat McCarthy.
Tape/Side   23/2
Time   28:50
END OF TAPE 23, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   24/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   24/1
Time   00:30
FUND RAISING FOR 1952 SENATE RACE
Scope and Content Note: Kaplan suggested Doyle ask for a contribution from Ronald Reagan, head of Actors Guild. As Finance Secretary, Kaplan handled money contributed to Party not individual candidates. Party appealed for contributions to defeat McCarthy. Received small contributions from New York, Washington. Anecdote about donor who died before check cleared.
Tape/Side   24/1
Time   03:30
INTERNAL PARTY ENDORSEMENTS
Scope and Content Note: Conflict over individual endorsements within Party from 1952 on were “emotional and personality-identified“. This was a bad trend, e.g. 1952 Senate election, 1954 Proxmire-Doyle race. In earlier years people made sacrifice to run as Democrats. Later, as Democrats became successful, people developed their own organizations. This led to a weakening of the Party. Incumbents were less likely to rely on Party. Trend started when Nelson became governor. Party never supported candidates on any level financially.
Tape/Side   24/1
Time   11:10
MUTUAL ASSISTANCE PAMPHLETS, PARTY SUPPORT FOR CANDIDATES
Scope and Content Note: Started publication 1952. Concerned agriculture, taxes, other issues. Included candidates' positions on issues, biographies. Candidates paid for the pamphlets. Warren Sawall, editor of The Wisconsin Democrat, may have written some pamphlets. These publications were the major Party contribution to candidates. Party paid for some pamphlets for legislative candidates. Stopped publication by the next election--does not recall why. Party did not have “significant” resources until Nelson elected governor.
Tape/Side   24/1
Time   16:50
THE PARTY AND NELSON'S CAMPAIGN ORGANIZATION
Scope and Content Note: Party, not Nelson's organization, received proceeds from inaugural banquet. Nelson did not compete for funds with Party. People who wanted to buy access to Nelson did it through the Party, not Nelson's campaign organization.
Tape/Side   24/1
Time   18:00
POSTMASTERS AND PATRONAGE
Scope and Content Note: 1948-1952 financial mainstay of Party was contributions from post-masters. This practice a remnant of old patronage system. Changed in 1953 because Republicans won national election. Party had to find new funding source--concentrated on individual donors.
Tape/Side   24/1
Time   21:10
ROLE OF WOMEN IN PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Women did all the work, received no recognition. Women with say in policy making--Julia Boegholt, Gladys Hoan, others. National Committeewoman only post open to women. Not a lot of competition for job--was very demanding, involved much travel. Policy makers--Gretchen Pfankuchen, Helene Wheeler, Julia Boegholt.
Tape/Side   24/1
Time   28:35
END OF TAPE 24, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   24/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   24/2
Time   00:30
ROLE OF WOMEN IN PARTY (continued)
Scope and Content Note: Women did all organizational work. Describes work.
Tape/Side   24/2
Time   01:15
PARTY FINANCES AND WOMEN
Scope and Content Note: Kaplan discussed policy with Jim Doyle and Pat Lucey when she was Finance Secretary. Only influence on policy concerned fund raising, not spending. State Administrative Committee was all male, controlled spending. In mid-1950s one woman was elected to committee.
Tape/Side   24/2
Time   05:35
CHAIRMAN OF DANE COUNTY DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: In early years “outstanding” men willing to serve as Chairman. Later, it became increasingly difficult to fill position, became more open to women. After war, lawyers' practices not thriving, had time for political activities.
Tape/Side   24/2
Time   09:25
WOMEN'S INFLUENCE ON PARTY POLICY
Scope and Content Note: Virginia Hart participated in discussion of policy. Women had influence on county policy but not state policy.
Tape/Side   24/2
Time   10:35
OLD VS. NEW DEMOCRATS IN THE EARLY 1940s
Scope and Content Note: Jerry Fox was not liberal just pragmatic in supporting returning veterans. Old Democrats, e.g. Charlie Green, never accepted new Democrats. However, there were few old Democrats; young people made all the policy. A few older Progressives joined Democrats but young people were in control.
Tape/Side   24/2
Time   17:10
CHANGES IN THE PARTY IN THE 1940s
Scope and Content Note: Young people who built new Party were enthusiastic, idealistic. As Party successfully elected candidates, it attracted people looking for personal gain.
Tape/Side   24/2
Time   20:20
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/25
Subseries: Laurie Carlson, 1983 June 10
Note: Access online.
Tape/Side   25/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   25/1
Time   00:40
LIBERAL DEMOCRATIC LEGISLATORS PRIOR T0 THE FORMATION OF THE DEMOCRATIC ORGANIZING COMMITTEE (DOC)
Tape/Side   25/1
Time   02:20
ROBERT TEHAN
Scope and Content Note: Not a “pathological” liberal.
Tape/Side   25/1
Time   03:00
OTHER LIBERAL DEMOCRATS IN LEGISLATURE PRIOR TO DOC
Scope and Content Note: “You couldn't find five.”
Tape/Side   25/1
Time   03:35
1932 DEMOCRATIC SWEEP CAUGHT WISCONSIN DEMOCRATS OFF GUARD
Tape/Side   25/1
Time   05:15
1934 ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: Both Phil and Bob La Follette assisted by President Roosevelt's endorsement of Bob.
Tape/Side   25/1
Time   06:20
MORE ON LIBERAL DEMOCRATS IN LEGISLATURE PRIOR TO DOC
Tape/Side   25/1
Time   07:15
CREATION OF THE PROGRESSIVE PARTY IN 1934
Scope and Content Note: Carlson circulated petitions to help create the party.
Tape/Side   25/1
Time   07:55
CARLSON'S DECISION TO RUN FOR THE LEGISLATURE
Scope and Content Note: Was interested in vocational education, especially as it pertained to agriculture.
Tape/Side   25/1
Time   10:30
ELIZABETH HAWKES
Scope and Content Note: Did not like Carlson. Was a Republican as late as 1940, when she was elected district attorney. Ran for Wisconsin Attorney General in 1944 on the Democratic ticket [Actually Hawkes did not run for Attorney General until 1946]. Called Carlson “a promising young upstart.” Politically “she didn't know where she was. She was not a liberal. How she ever got appointed to the Board of Regents, I don't know.” Got active in the Democratic Party in the Tenth District after 1944. An opportunist.
Tape/Side   25/1
Time   14:30
CARLSON WAS CLOSE TO WILLIAM PROXMIRE AND WILLIAM EVJUE
Tape/Side   25/1
Time   15:25
BILL EVJUE TOOK A VERY DIM VIEW OF PHIL LA FOLLETTE'S NATIONAL PROGRESSIVE PARTY
Tape/Side   25/1
Time   19:00
PHIL LA FOLLETTE
Scope and Content Note: Felt Franklin Roosevelt took the “Wisconsin Idea” and the La Follettes' ideas and created the New Deal without giving proper credit. Carlson was close to Phil. Phil was too young, immature, ambitious. Would have been more successful if he had been more mature. Never recovered from his defeat in 1938.
Tape/Side   25/1
Time   20:35
BILL EVJUE
Scope and Content Note: He was harder on people in office who were his political allies than he was on the opposition. He was liberal until it came to his own pocket book. Pro-labor until his own newspaper and radio station were organized. Bill Walker told Carlson that Evjue resisted Carlson's advancement at WIBA radio because Carlson was too pro-employee.
Tape/Side   25/1
Time   23:55
CARLSON GOES INTO BUSINESS FOR HIMSELF
Scope and Content Note: His children were getting older and Evjue was providing him no advancement.
Tape/Side   25/1
Time   25:15
ORLAND LOOMIS INTENDED TO RUN FOR GOVERNOR AS A REPUBLICAN IN 1944, IF HE HAD LIVED, THEREBY BRINGING THE PROGRESSIVE PARTY BACK INTO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY
Tape/Side   25/1
Time   26:10
LEADING REPUBLICANS ENCOURAGED LA FOLLETTE TO RETURN TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN 1946; THEN THEY TURNED ON HIM
Tape/Side   25/1
Time   27:20
END OF TAPE 25, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   25/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   25/2
Time   00:30
MANY PROGRESSIVES WERE FAIRLY WEALTHY
Scope and Content Note: Wanted to make the capitalist system work. Therefore at odds with the socialists. Rural northern Wisconsin followed Bob La Follette into the Republican Party in 1946 while Milwaukee labor and socialists went into the Democratic Party.
Tape/Side   25/2
Time   04:50
NOT MUCH CONTACT IN 1945-46 BETWEEN MADISON-MILWAUKEE LIBERALS AND NORTHERN LIBERALS
Tape/Side   25/2
Time   05:40
DEMOCRATIC PARTY ADVOCATES AT THE 1946 PROGRESSIVE PARTY CONVENTION
Scope and Content Note: Mainly the Milwaukee contingent and the labor people. Madison people mainly in favor of following Bob La Follette into the Republican Party.
Tape/Side   25/2
Time   07:30
CARLSON ORGANIZED FOR THE PROGRESSIVE PARTY, HOLDING MANY TOWN HALL MEETINGS
Tape/Side   25/2
Time   09:20
ANECDOTE ABOUT EVJUE ENCOURAGING LESTER JOHNSON TO RUN FOR MERLIN HULL'S CONGRESSIONAL SEAT AFTER HULL'S DEATH
Scope and Content Note: Won and claimed later that he would never have run without Evjue's encouragement.
Tape/Side   25/2
Time   10:30
MORE ON CARLSON'S ORGANIZING EFFORTS FOR THE PROGRESSIVES IN THE TENTH DISTRICT
Scope and Content Note: Thinks if the Party would have turned him loose to organize in 1946, he could have produced enough votes to give Bob La Follette victory over Joe McCarthy in the senatorial primary.
Tape/Side   25/2
Time   13:15
90-95 PERCENT OF PROGRESSIVES EVENTUALLY WOUND UP IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Defection of Progressives from the Republican Party began with Oscar Rennebohm's defeat of Ralph Immel in the Republican gubernatorial primary in 1948.
Tape/Side   25/2
Time   14:30
CARLSON WORKED IN BILL PROXMIRE'S CAMPAIGNS, 1952-1957
Tape/Side   25/2
Time   15:25
SHIFT OF NORTHERN PROGRESSIVES TO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: In 1946 and 1948 voted in the Republican primary but for Democrats in the general election. By 1950, pretty much had decided to go into the Democratic Party.
Tape/Side   25/2
Time   17:45
LABOR UNIONS
Scope and Content Note: Strong Communist influence. Communists favored Republicans in the belief that the country would fall apart under Republicans and turn to Communists.
Tape/Side   25/2
Time   20:25
ANDY BIEMILLER
Scope and Content Note: In 1941 Carlson voted against Biemiller as floor leader because of his socialism. A strong character, a strong speaker.
Tape/Side   25/2
Time   22:40
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/26-28
Subseries: Carl Thompson, 1984 December 21
Note
Tape/Side   26/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   26/1
Time   00:30
BIOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Father had been a professor of economics at the University of South Dakota and the University of Minnesota. Headed up the U.S. food survey “to feed the starving Belgians.” Died of influenza just before Carl's sixth birthday. Family moved to Stoughton, Wisconsin, to live with Carl's mother's father, a Lutheran minister. Lived there about six years, when his grandfather remarried. Two younger sisters. Mother then became home economics teacher in Stoughton school system, which position she held for 30-35 years. Carl was born March 15, 1914, in Washington, D.C.
Tape/Side   26/1
Time   04:55
EDUCATION
Scope and Content Note: Stoughton public schools. One year at Luther College in Decorah, Iowa; then came to the University of Wisconsin in Madison. After graduated, went to law school at University of Wisconsin, taking law degree in 1939.
Tape/Side   26/1
Time   05:45
WORKED FOR GOVERNOR PHIL LA FOLLETTE WHILE ATTENDING UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: Shoveled walks, mowed grass, answered telephone. Lived in Governor's garage. Was paid fifteen dollars a month. Shared this job with Urban Van Sustern, later an ardent Joe McCarthy supporter. Occasionally would chauffeur Governor La Follette; frequently chauffeured Isen La Follette, the governor's wife.
Tape/Side   26/1
Time   07:35
THOMPSON'S EARLY INVOLVEMENT WITH THE PROGRESSIVE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: When the party was formed in 1934, Thompson visited Phil La Follette and William Evjue to offer his services in the coming campaign. Put together a four-page newspaper; sold ads to all Progressive candidates in Dane County. From that, he got the job with the Governor.
Tape/Side   26/1
Time   10:15
FOUNDING CONVENTION OF THE PROGRESSIVE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Thompson was the youngest delegate at the convention--only twenty years old. He went to a preliminary Dane county convention, attended by 500-700 people. Gave a speech which impressed Bill Evjue who was on the delegate nominating committee.
Tape/Side   26/1
Time   12:20
THOMPSON'S INTEREST IN POLITICS
Scope and Content Note: First started with a civics course as a sophomore in high school. A second course, as a senior, on the environment also impressed him.
Tape/Side   26/1
Time   14:35
STAYED UP ALL NIGHT TO LISTEN TO 1932 DEMOCRATIC PARTY CONVENTION
Tape/Side   26/1
Time   15:45
FAMILY POLITICS
Scope and Content Note: Grandfather was a moderate Republican; father was probably a Republican. Unsure of mother's politics, but she never argued against Franklin Roosevelt.
Tape/Side   26/1
Time   16:45
PROGRESSIVE CLUB THE MOST ACTIVE POLITICAL GROUP ON UW CAMPUS
Scope and Content Note: Interested both in party politics and campus politics. Brought in Progressive speakers, including an annual visit from Phil La Follette. Communists were the most active other political group on campus. As a junior, sought control of the three-person student governing body; formed a coalition with the sororities. Carol Morse, sister of future Senator Wayne Morse, received the most votes and was elected chair; Thompson came in second, thus becoming a member of the committee. Elected Jim Doyle as senior class president. Also, elected the Board of the Daily Cardinal, including the future Mrs. Jim Doyle, Ruth Bachhuber. The Cardinal Board named as editor someone who was accused of being a Communist, but he was replaced by a new Board before taking on his duties. Resulted in a student strike.
Tape/Side   26/1
Time   22:20
THOMPSON ACTIVE IN DEBATE CLUB IN HIGH SCHOOL AND COLLEGE
Tape/Side   26/1
Time   22:40
PEOPLE ACTIVE IN UW PROGRESSIVE CLUB
Scope and Content Note: Miles McMillin, John Lawton, Gaylord Nelson. Annual picnics with free beer from one of the Milwaukee breweries drew in many students. Progressive Club had circa 300-400 members.
Tape/Side   26/1
Time   25:50
THOMPSON'S UNDERGRADUATE EDUCATION
Tape/Side   26/1
Time   27:25
THOMPSON BECAME A FILE CLERK IN GOVERNOR PHIL LA FOLLETTE'S OFFICE
Scope and Content Note: Would address all the postcards sent out prior to a La Follette speech in a particular area. Therefore, had access to the La Follette “Black Book,” which listed the most active members of the Progressive Party in each county.
Tape/Side   26/1
Time   28:45
END OF TAPE 26, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   26/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   26/2
Time   00:30
PROGRESSIVE PARTY “BLACK BOOK”
Scope and Content Note: Because he actually copied the names from the “Black Book” on to postcards, he was probably more familiar with the names than were the La Follettes themselves. Phil La Follette's political technique was to speak on a street corner with a loud speaker and the start of the audience were those who had received postcards.
Tape/Side   26/2
Time   01:05
THE PROGRESSIVE-STALWART SPLIT IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY PRIOR TO 1934
Tape/Side   26/2
Time   02:10
THOMPSON RETAINED A COPY OF THE “BLACK BOOK” WHICH WAS USED IN ORGANIZING THE DEMOCRATIC ORGANIZING COMMITTEE (DOC)
Scope and Content Note: Whether the people in the “Black Book” joined the Democratic Party after 1946 depended on where they lived and whether they were officeholders. Those who held office went into the Republican Party. Those who were really progressives, tended to join the Democratic Party. Lester Johnson, who was Progressive Party District Attorney from Black River Falls, was an exception to the rule of officeholders going into the Republican Party.
Tape/Side   26/2
Time   04:40
WHY THE LA FOLLETTES FORMED THE PROGRESSIVE PARTY IN 1934
Scope and Content Note: Many Progressive Republicans were unhappy with being Republicans once Roosevelt was elected president as a Democrat. Also, labor was against the Republicans. Bob La Follette “was the most reluctant.” Felt he could win more easily as a Republican.
Tape/Side   26/2
Time   06:30
BOB LA FOLLETTE'S DEFEAT IN 1946
Scope and Content Note: Went into the Republican Party because he felt he could win more easily as a Republican, just as he had felt in 1934. Lost because he did not maintain ties in Wisconsin through personal visits. The same could be said for Senator Gaylord Nelson's defeat in 1980.
Tape/Side   26/2
Time   07:20
IMPORTANCE OF PERSONAL CONTACT IN POLITICS
Scope and Content Note: Bill Proxmire epitomizes this type of political campaigning.
Tape/Side   26/2
Time   09:05
FORMATION OF THE NATIONAL PROGRESSIVES OF AMERICA (NPA) IN 1938
Scope and Content Note: Thompson attended the founding event at the Stock Pavilion. Phil La Follette formed the separate party because he felt the German vote in Wisconsin would be crucial as it was during World War I; this is Thompson's personal opinion.
Tape/Side   26/2
Time   11:15
ANECDOTE ABOUT STRONG VOTER LOYALTY TO THE LA FOLLETTES
Scope and Content Note: A Roxbury voter told Thompson in the previous election everyone in town voted for Bob La Follette except one person and “they were running around...to find the guy so they could beat the hell out of him.”
Tape/Side   26/2
Time   12:10
MORE ON FORMATION OF NATIONAL PROGRESSIVES OF AMERICA
Scope and Content Note: Phil felt the German vote would be important throughout the country. Also, he had been influenced by his visit to Germany. Further, his attitude on foreign policy was “diametrically” opposed to Roosevelt's. Thus, the NPA was formed more because of foreign policy than domestic policy. On domestic policy, La Follette felt Roosevelt should have pushed the Public Works Administration (PWA) rather than the Works Progress Administration (WPA). PWA projects were more constructive, more useful.
Tape/Side   26/2
Time   15:20
BOB LA FOLLETTE'S DECISION TO ABANDON THE PROGRESSIVE PARTY IN 1946
Scope and Content Note: Thompson visited him in Washington, D.C., shortly before his decision and La Follette indicated he felt the Progressive Party was no longer a vehicle through which he could be elected. In 1944 the Progressive Party almost did not get enough votes to get on the ballot. He knew the stalwarts would do everything possible to defeat him.
Tape/Side   26/2
Time   19:00
WHY THE LA FOLLETTES NEVER SERIOUSLY CONSIDERED JOINING THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: In 1946 La Follette felt the Democratic Party was not strong enough to provide him victory. In 1934, the La Follettes were too much in the habit of running on the Republican ticket and “there were just all kinds of things about the Democratic Party in Wisconsin....” The strength of the Democrats in the 1933 legislature was also a hindrance.
Tape/Side   26/2
Time   22:45
MORE THOMPSON BIOGRAPHY
Scope and Content Note: Set up law practice in Stoughton after graduation. Married in 1942. Was active in Progressive Party during this period. Was a member of the statutory committee in Dane County, serving as chairperson. Never ran for office as a Progressive. In spring, 1939, ran for alderman in Madison, a nonpartisan office. Was endored by the Capital Times and opposed by the State Journal on the grounds that he was “a carpetbagger from Stoughton.”
Tape/Side   26/2
Time   24:40
HELPED MANAGE ORLAND LOOMIS' 1940 GUBERNATORIAL CAMPAIGN
Tape/Side   26/2
Time   25:45
MORE THOMPSON BIOGRAPHY
Scope and Content Note: In the military late summer 1942 to early summer 1946.
Tape/Side   26/2
Time   26:05
UPON RETURN FROM THE MILITARY, OFFERED HIS SERVICES TO THE BOB LA FOLLETTE SENATORIAL CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: Campaign organizers told him to take his, planned vacation since La Follette's victory was not in doubt.
Tape/Side   26/2
Time   26:45
THOMPSON SHIFT TO THE DEMOCRATS
Scope and Content Note: Voted in the 1946 Republican primary. Then managed Bill Rice's campaign for Congress in the general election; Rice ran as a Democrat and was soundly defeated. The Republican victor died before taking office and a special election was necessary in 1947. Thompson ran and was narrowly defeated. Probably considered himself a Democrat once La Follette lost the primary. Voted for Howard McMurray, Democrat, for senator in 1946 general election.
Tape/Side   26/2
Time   28:55
END OF TAPE 26, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   27/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   27/1
Time   00:30
THOMPSON RACE FOR CONGRESS IN 1947
Scope and Content Note: Bob Tehan and Andy Biemiller twisted his arm to get him to run. Telephone strike in the entire district, except Waukesha County. Waukesha County, therefore had a much higher voter turn out than the other counties in the district. Capital Times influence was very important in Thompson's strong showing-almost daily stories and pictures of Thompson. Capital Times did not present him as a Democrat, but as “a continuation of the Progressive Movement in Wisconsin.”
Tape/Side   27/1
Time   03:25
DOOR TO DOOR CAMPAIGNING AND BILL PROXMIRE
Scope and Content Note: Thompson never cared for it. Bill Proxmire, however, proved its usefulness. Proxmire visited every home in his district when he first ran for the assembly. Immediately after leaving a home, he would write the person a personal postcard to be mailed shortly before election day.
Tape/Side   27/1
Time   05:10
REASONS FOR THE RAPID DECLINE OF THE PROGRESSIVE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Disadvantage of not having presidential candidates to lead a campaign. Importance of presidential elections to local candidates is exemplified to Andy Biemiller's congressional races; he won in presidential election years and lost in the off years. [Note: This pattern did not hold true in 1952.]
Tape/Side   27/1
Time   07:40
THOMPSON ADVICE TO HENRY REUSS AFTER HIS FIRST CONGRESSIONAL ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: Told him Biemiller had had a reputation for being a pawn of labor, and that Reuss needed another issue. Reuss went on to make a reputation as an environmentalist, especially for sportsmen.
Tape/Side   27/1
Time   10:30
MORE ON THOMPSON'S CONGRESSIONAL RACE IN 1947
Scope and Content Note: Ran generally on Progressive Party programs.
Tape/Side   27/1
Time   11:20
ANECDOTE ABOUT THOMPSON'S ANNOUNCEMENT THAT HE WAS RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR IN 1948
Scope and Content Note: Miles McMillin wrote the announcement, including the phrase that “the Republican Party in Wisconsin is dragging the chains of the walking dead.” Thompson wanted that phrase taken out, but McMillin insisted that it be left in. Later, the editor of the Green Bay and Appleton newspapers, a Republican, asked McMillin to have Thompson stop in when in the area because “he gives all this dramatic stuff that you can make good stories out of.”
Tape/Side   27/1
Time   12:55
MILES McMILLIN WROTE ALL OF THOMPSON'S PRESS RELEASES FOR HIS CONGRESSIONAL RACE AND HIS FIRST CAMPAIGN FOR GOVERNOR
Tape/Side   27/1
Time   13:35
HOW THE SECOND DISTRICT COULD ELECT A CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN (GLENN DAVIS) FOR YEARS AND THEN TURN AROUND AND ELECT A LIBERAL DEMOCRAT (BOB KASTENMEIER) FOR YEARS
Scope and Content Note: Kastenmeier is probably elected more for the attention he gives to constituent problems than for his liberal political stands.
Tape/Side   27/1
Time   14:50
HOW CONGRESSMAN ALVIN O'KONSKI SERVED HIS CONSTITUENTS
Scope and Content Note: If a constituent wrote with a problem by return mail he would get an acknowledgement of receipt of the letter and a commitment that O'Konski would act on it. O'Konski would then follow up a week or two later saying he had visited the proper federal agency and the situation was being investigated. A third letter would finally come telling the constituent that the problem had been solved and O'Konski was the greatest, or that the problem was not solved and it was all the fault of the federal agency which could have solved it. Thompson talked to a lot of people in his gubernatorial races who said they would vote for him for governor, but for Republican O'Konski for Congress “because he really takes care of his local people.”
Tape/Side   27/1
Time   17:00
EFFECTIVE CONSTITUENT INPUT TO LEGISLATORS
Scope and Content Note: The worst thing is to flood a politician with standard letters. Letters should be personalized.
Tape/Side   27/1
Time   19:45
THOMPSON'S METHOD OF RESPONDING TO CONSTITUENTS
Scope and Content Note: His secretary, Florence Bender, who finally retired at age 80, was the fastest typist in the capitol building. They used the technique of a very short personal letter with an enclosure.
Tape/Side   27/1
Time   20:50
THOMPSON WAS STILL IN THE ARMY AT THE TIME OF THE LAST PROGRESSIVE PARTY CONVENTION
Tape/Side   27/1
Time   21:25
DANE COUNTY LIBERALS AND THOMPSON IN HIS EARLY CAMPAIGNS DOWNPLAYED THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY CONNECTION AND EMPHASIZED THE PROGRESSIVE TIES
Tape/Side   27/1
Time   23:15
EVEN IN HIS EARLY CAMPAIGNS, THE BIG ISSUE WAS PROPERTY TAXES
Tape/Side   27/1
Time   24:00
DAN HOAN'S LIBERAL LEAGUE AND OTHER LIBERAL DEMOCRATIC PARTY ACTIVITIES IN THE MID-1940s
Scope and Content Note: “It laid the groundwork which very substantially affected the time required for the state to go Democratic.”
Tape/Side   27/1
Time   26:35
END OF TAPE 27, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   27/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   27/2
Time   00:30
BOB TEHAN
Scope and Content Note: His role in the rebirth of the Democratic Party in Wisconsin is underrated. Told Thompson it important to distribute candidacies amongst the various ethnic groups. Complained that Wisconsin Democratic Party was viewed by many as being made up solely of Roman Catholic tavernkeepers.
Tape/Side   27/2
Time   02:55
THE 1948 STATE DEMOCRATIC TICKET
Scope and Content Note: Henry Reuss refused to run for lieutenant governor because he had just been defeated in election for mayor of Milwaukee and thought two defeats in a row would not be good for his political career. Lieutenant governor candidacy then fell to a man who was Polish and had voted against the Rural Electric Cooperatives consistently (Anthony Gawronski). Tom Fairchild won attorney general because of his respectable political family and because the Republican primary winner was a labor lawyer who was distasteful to conservative Republicans. Ticket had a good ethnic mix. By the time Reuss decided not to run for lieutenant governor, it was too late to get a candidate better than Gawronski. Ticket was picked at a meeting in a restaurant in Jefferson County.
Tape/Side   27/2
Time   08:00
THOMPSON'S 1948 GUBERNATORIAL CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: Used a panel truck, loaned by George Card. Would drive up and down the main street announcing over the truck's loudspeaker that Carl Thompson would be speaking at such and such a time and such and such a place. One day he spent visiting towns in Waupaca County and not one officer of the county Democratic Party came to hear the speeches. That convinced Thompson that the current officers of the statutory party had to be replaced by strengthening the Democratic Organizing Committee (DOC).
Tape/Side   27/2
Time   10:35
ORGANIZING LOCAL DOC UNITS--COMPETITION FOR CONTROL
Scope and Content Note: Battle in Eau Claire County between Arthur Henning, who represented labor, and Eppie Lederer, who was later to become famous as “Ann Landers.” Battle in Racine was between Sam Rizzo and labor versus Gerald Flynn and the rest of the Democrats. When Flynn was elected to Congress, however, Rizzo became his home secretary. In Forest County the fight was between “the Poles and the Kentucks.” The “Kentucks” made moonshine during Prohibition and Gerry Clifford, a Green Bay attorney and Democratic Party activist provided them legal counsel.
Tape/Side   27/2
Time   13:35
1948 ELECTION IN DANE COUNTY
Scope and Content Note: Virtual sweep for Democrats. No one thought Gaylord Nelson could defeat Fred Risser. Two people were convinced to run on the county ticket because they were assured they could not possibly win, but running would be good for the Party. Thompson spent two hours one night trying to convince assemblyman Earl Mullen to run as a Democrat, but was unsuccessful since Mullen felt it improper to announce as a Republican and then run as a Democrat. He was defeated by a Democrat.
Tape/Side   27/2
Time   16:30
MORE ON ORGANIZING LOCAL DOC UNITS
Scope and Content Note: Started with names of labor and farm organization leaders. Added people who had participated in the 1948 campaign.
Tape/Side   27/2
Time   18:40
LABOR'S ROLE IN THE DOC
Scope and Content Note: State AFL President George Haberman, “a Republican,” was no longer the boss of labor. Jake Friedrick and Andy Biemiller had more influence with labor in political matters.
Tape/Side   27/2
Time   19:15
ORGANIZING IN MILWAUKEE
Scope and Content Note: Objective was to pull in Socialists, Progressives, and old-time Democrats.
Tape/Side   27/2
Time   20:05
MORE ON ORGANIZING DOC
Scope and Content Note: Contacts were farm co-op people, longtime Progressives, and active Democrats. “But...unlike any other state in the country, I'll bet, these guys who had been appointed to a national position by Roosevelt and the Democrat Party, they didn't do a thing for us, the vast majority of them.” Postmasters were much more helpful than those with high level positions, like Leo Crowley. “They didn't even write a letter saying 'Glad to see you got elected.'”
Tape/Side   27/2
Time   21:55
FINANCING THE EARLY CAMPAIGNS
Scope and Content Note: “Shocked” by a five hundred dollar contribution by a longtime, wealthy Democrat from the northern part of the state (Jim Corcoran). Campaign collected probably less than ten thousand dollars. The CIO became active in the 1950 campaign; campaign spent between thirty and thirty-five thousand dollars. The Republican gubernatorial candidates probably spent a minimum of two hundred thousand dollars in each of those campaigns.
Tape/Side   27/2
Time   24:20
GREENE-TEHAN FIGHT
Scope and Content Note: Tehan was national committeeman, which was much more important then than it is now, since Wisconsin did not have a Democratic governor or senator to deal with national appointments. The national committeeman and national committeewoman “channeled through all the recommendations for appointments. And that is what, I'm sure, Charlie Greene was after,” basically control over patronage. Elizabeth Hawkes and Art Henning were amongst the few who supported Greene.
Tape/Side   27/2
Time   28:50
END OF TAPE 27, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   28/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   28/1
Time   00:30
FORMATION OF DEMOCRATIC ORGANIZING COMMITTEE (DOC)
Scope and Content Note: The Democratic Party prior to the DOC was simply not a vehicle which could be used to win elections. Activists recruited candidates for local offices.
Tape/Side   28/1
Time   04:05
THE EDMUND BOBROWICZ AFFAIR
Scope and Content Note: Thaddeus Waslewski, fourth district congressman, “voted more like a Republican than the Republicans.” Bobrowicz was recruited to run against Waslewski. He defeated Wasklewski in the primary, but then it was revealed that he was a Communist. The Democrats then wound up tacitly supporting the Republican candidate in the general election, and the Republican won.
Tape/Side   28/1
Time   05:30
CONSERVATIVE WILLIAM CARROLL WAS MADE TREASURER OF THE DOC
Scope and Content Note: “An effort was made to marry all the factions and get a united front.” Surprising to Thompson that longtime party activist Carroll did so poorly in the 1948 gubernatorial primary. An indication that many new people were coming into the Democratic Party.
Tape/Side   28/1
Time   07:10
BECAUSE THOMPSON WAS SO BUSY WITH POLITICS IN 1947 AND 1948, HIS LAW PARTNER SET UP HIS OWN FIRM
Tape/Side   28/1
Time   08:40
THOMPSON'S LEGAL BUSINESS
Scope and Content Note: During his first year out of law school and his first year out of the army, he didn't make enough money to cover his expenses.
Tape/Side   28/1
Time   09:25
EVENTS BETWEEN THE 1948 ELECTION AND THE FIRST DOC CONVENTION IN 1949
Tape/Side   28/1
Time   12:20
THOMPSON OPPOSED PRE-PRIMARY ENDORSEMENTS BY THE DOC
Scope and Content Note: However, he thought it was going too far when some people suggested that people in positions of influence should not reveal even their personal choices.
Tape/Side   28/1
Time   13:50
THOMPSON APPOINTED NATIONAL COMMITTEEMAN BY THE CHAIR OF THE NATIONAL COMMITTEE
Scope and Content Note: By request of Bob Tehan. Julia Boegholt felt he should have spent more time at meetings and in touch with the National Committee. Thompson, however, felt his time was best spent trying to organize the party throughout Wisconsin.
Tape/Side   28/1
Time   16:50
ANECDOTES ABOUT TRAVELLING THE STATE WITH EDDIE MERTZ AND ENDURING SEVERAL CLOSE CALLS WITH LIVESTOCK
Tape/Side   28/1
Time   18:20
DAN ROAN
Scope and Content Note: “I don't think he had any other great hobby or great mission in life. And so he stepped in the tenth district.” Very close to Herman Jessen.
Tape/Side   28/1
Time   19:55
HERMAN JESSEN
Scope and Content Note: Probably came from a place where being a Socialist was an effective way of getting things done.
Tape/Side   28/1
Time   22:10
BOB TEHAN'S SUPPORT OF THE YOUNG TURKS AND THE DOC BROUGHT IN MANY OLD-LINE DEMOCRATS
Scope and Content Note: He would talk to people on a one to one basis. He would not talk liberal versus conservative, but simply about building the party.
Tape/Side   28/1
Time   23:45
CHARLES GREENE CANDIDACY IN 1950 GUBERNATORIAL PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Greene claimed to be more liberal than Bob Tehan; so his candidacy was not an attempt to provide a conservative alternative. His candidacy was probably just a continuation of his fight with Bob Tehan.
Tape/Side   28/1
Time   24:10
MORE ON GREENE-TEHAN FIGHT
Scope and Content Note: To his credit, Greene did not take advantage of a potential scandal in his fight with Tehan.
Tape/Side   28/1
Time   25:30
IMPORTANCE OF VIRGINIA HART IN THE EARLY GOING OF THE DOC
Tape/Side   28/1
Time   27:00
THE ROLE OF AMVETS AND THE AMERICAN VETERANS COMMITTEE (AVC)
Scope and Content Note: Ken Kunde from Oshkosh was a leader in AmVets. AVC activists felt the existing veterans organizations “would not necessarily represent our point of view.”
Tape/Side   28/1
Time   29:00
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/29-31
Subseries: John and William Duffy, 1984 December 20
Note: Access online.
Tape/Side   29/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   29/1
Time   00:30
WILLIAM DUFFY BIOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND (William)
Scope and Content Note: Born in Minnesota in 1916. Father worked for International Harvester in Minneapolis. Moved to Town of Holland, Wisconsin, while very young. Father a lifelong progressive. Father a friend of Governor John Blaine and of Phil and Bob La Follette.
Tape/Side   29/1
Time   03:40
LAST PROGRESSIVE PARTY CONVENTION, 1946 (William)
Scope and Content Note: Brown County voted three to two to go into the Republican Party.
Tape/Side   29/1
Time   04:15
AFTER 1946 ELECTION, ACTIVITY IN DEMOCRATIC PARTY PICKED UP CONSIDERABLY (William)
Scope and Content Note: Younger, progressive people, especially in the Madison area, began to appear in the Democratic Party. Old-time Democrats were conservative, as evidenced by their alliance with the Republicans in 1938. Gerald Clifford, the most active Democrat in the Green Bay area, claimed there was too much interest in postmasterships and not enough in getting elected.
Tape/Side   29/1
Time   06:20
WILLIAM ELECTED TO ASSEMBLY IN 1948 (William)
Scope and Content Note: Pat Lucey, Ruth Doyle, Tom Taylor were all elected to the assembly for the first time in 1948.
Tape/Side   29/1
Time   07:05
MORE BIOGRAPHY OF WILLIAM DUFFY (William)
Scope and Content Note: Graduated from St. Mary's College in 1938 and went to University of Wisconsin Law School, finishing in 1941. Entered the service immediately (prior to Pearl Harbor) for a one year hitch, but because of World War II was in for about four years.
Tape/Side   29/1
Time   07:50
JOHN DUFFY BIOGRAPHY (John)
Scope and Content Note: Born in 1921 in Town of Holland, Brown County. Attended parochial schools, graduating from high school in 1938. Farmed for a year. Then went to University of Wisconsin in Madison, eventually getting a law degree. Returned to Green Bay and set up law practice with Ray Eberhardt, who had been Progressive Party County Chairman for many years. Father served on Brown County Board for 35-36 years and ran for the assembly as a Progressive in 1934 and 1936, losing each time. Father was a delegate to the founding convention of the Progressive Party, 1934. While at the UW, John was active in the Young Progressives.
Tape/Side   29/1
Time   11:10
THE BROWN COUNTY DELEGATION TO THE LAST PROGRESSIVE PARTY CONVENTION (John)
Scope and Content Note: Three voted to join the Republicans and two, including John, voted to join the Democrats. Other delegates from Brown County were Ray Eberhardt, John Reynolds, Sr., Alex Shane, and Mrs. Bloomer. Bloomer was the other vote for the Democratic Party. Bob Lewis and others spoke in favor of going to the Democrats and later became active in the Democratic Party.
Tape/Side   29/1
Time   14:15
JOHN'S POLITICAL BIOGRAPHY (John)
Scope and Content Note: Democratic county chairman, 1948 to about 1953. Never ran for public office, but always had a keen interest in politics. Was a delegate to five national Democratic conventions as a Kefauver delegate in 1952 and 1956, Kennedy delegate in 1960, Johnson delegate in 1964, and Eugene McCarthy delegate in 1968. “Spent a very unhappy week in the Windy City getting pushed around.” Vice-chairman of the eighth district DOC for a couple years in the 1950s; William was Chair for a while.
Tape/Side   29/1
Time   16:20
JOHN VOTED FOR HOWARD McMURRAY, DEMOCRAT, IN THE 1946 SENATE PRIMARY, BUT HIS FATHER PROBABLY VOTED FOR BOB LA FOLLETTE (John)
Scope and Content Note: Father then became a Democrat.
Tape/Side   29/1
Time   17:05
WILLIAM PROBABLY VOTED IN THE DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY IN 1946 (William)
Scope and Content Note: No one felt La Follette would lose. What hurt La Follette most was his decision to return to the Republican Party.
Tape/Side   29/1
Time   18:10
GROWTH OF DEMOCRATS AMONGST YOUNG PEOPLE (William)
Scope and Content Note: “Jerry Fox was a great catalyst.” (William incorrectly states that Fox was Speaker of the Assembly in 1932.) “He also enjoyed the confidence of all of us because he was a completely reliable and trustworthy individual and open to all of the Roosevelt philosophy of government, which many of the old-time Democrats were not.” Many Wisconsin Democrats had a strong anti-Roosevelt streak in the 1930s.
Tape/Side   29/1
Time   20:10
ANECDOTE ABOUT HOW LOOSELY RUN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY WAS IN 1948 (William)
Scope and Content Note: A resolution was offered from the floor to endorse Eisenhower for president as a Democrat. Many delegates had already gone home and of those remaining probably a majority of them favored the resolution. A motion to adjourn headed off the resolution, but a rump group met to endorse Eisenhower anyway. Brown County delegation opposed the resolution. “We knew that Truman was our president and...we would not indulge in that kind of foolishness.” “We had such a loose organization that a resolution like that could be offered right from the floor.” It seemed on the motion to adjourn that the noes won, but Chairman Leland McParland ruled that it passed and the convention was over.
Tape/Side   29/1
Time   23:50
WHY LA FOLLETTE RETURNED TO THE REPUBLICANS IN 1946 (John)
Scope and Content Note: He felt that was the easiest way to get re-elected.
Tape/Side   29/1
Time   27:35
ROOSEVELT VISITED GREEN BAY IN 1934 AND ENDORSED BOB LA FOLLETTE FOR U.S. SENATOR (John and William)
Tape/Side   29/1
Time   28:30
END OF TAPE 29, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   29/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   29/2
Time   00:30
PROGRESSIVES IN THE WESTERN PART OF THE STATE PRETTY MUCH BECAME REPUBLICANS (William)
Tape/Side   29/2
Time   02:20
JERRY CLIFFORD AND OTHER LIBERAL ELEMENTS IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY PRIOR TO 1946 (John and William)
Scope and Content Note: By 1946 the few statewide leaders the Democratic Party had were mostly liberal. Charles Broughton, Miles McMillin, Bill Evjue. As early as the mid-1930s Evjue had some reservations about Phil La Follette. “Phil was pretty autocratic.”
Tape/Side   29/2
Time   05:40
KATHERINE SULLIVAN, IMPORTANT LIBERAL DEMOCRAT (William)
Scope and Content Note: Of Kaukauna. Husband, W.C. Sullivan, ran for Governor as a Democrat in 1942.
Tape/Side   29/2
Time   06:30
LAVERNE DILWEG (William and John)
Scope and Content Note: A partner of Jerry Clifford, which was the law firm William joined after the War. A Roosevelt Democrat. Elected to Congress in 1942, defeated in 1944. Eighth district is very difficult for a Democrat to win “because Appleton is in it, and Sturgeon Bay and Oconto, a lot of strong...Republican territory.” “You had to have some pull greater than just their political affiliation.” Dilweg's pull was his reknown as a football player for the Green Bay Packers and earlier at Marquette University. He received a lot of support from Republicans, through friendships. His wife had Republican leanings and all his children were Republicans.
Tape/Side   29/2
Time   09:25
DAN HOAN (John and William)
Scope and Content Note: “Very interesting man.”
Tape/Side   29/2
Time   10:55
LIBERAL VOTERS UNION LEAGUE, GREEN BAY
Tape/Side   29/2
Time   11:40
ASSEMBLYMAN ROBERT LYNCH OF GREEN BAY (William)
Scope and Content Note: Had conservative instincts, but went along with the younger, more liberal Democrats. A colleague of Ruth Doyle in the assembly.
Tape/Side   29/2
Time   12:25
VARIOUS GREEN BAY AREA POLITICIANS AND THEIR POLITICAL AFFILIATIONS
Tape/Side   29/2
Time   13:10
DECLINE OF THE PROGRESSIVE PARTY IN WISCONSIN (John and William)
Scope and Content Note: The death of Orland Loomis. Without the governorship, it is difficult to keep a party going. Also, a lot of people became disenchanted with Phil La Follette and the autocratic way he ran the governor's office. Then Phil became close to General Douglas MacArthur, who was not a popular figure amongst liberals. “The time was ripe for the young Democrats. There's no question about it. And most of them saw that.”
Tape/Side   29/2
Time   15:20
TOM FAIRCHILD (William)
Scope and Content Note: First Democrat to be elected statewide (since 1932). “A remarkable individual...very capable...very unique individual.”
Tape/Side   29/2
Time   15:45
DEMOCRATIC ORGANIZING COMMITTEE'S YOUNG TURKS KNEW EACH OTHER AT THE UNIVERSTlY AND FOUND THEMSELVES THROWN TOGETHER AGAIN AFTER THE WAR BECAUSE OF THEIR INTEREST IN REBUILDING THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY (William and John)
Tape/Side   29/2
Time   16:50
LABOR VERY PROMINENT IN THE HIGH COUNCILS OF THE DOC (William and John)
Tape/Side   29/2
Time   18:10
DOCTORS ACTIVE IN THE DOC (William and John)
Tape/Side   29/2
Time   19:30
MORE ON KATHERINE SULLIVAN (John and William)
Scope and Content Note: “She challenged everything she ever heard.”
Tape/Side   29/2
Time   20:20
ORGANIZING LOCAL DOC UNITS (William)
Scope and Content Note: William would go out to various counties with Pat Lucey, Tom Taylor, and Ruth Doyle. Carl Thompson visited many areas of the state. Pat Lucey was “a tremendous organizer.”
Tape/Side   29/2
Time   24:10
LITTLE RECOLLECTION OF THE FIRST DOC MEETING IN FOND DU LAC, 1948 (John and William)
Scope and Content Note: Suspect it was called by Dan Hoan, Jerry Fox, and Jerry Clifford.
Tape/Side   29/2
Time   26:50
GREENE-TEHAN FIGHT (William)
Scope and Content Note: Greene had the “onus” of being chair of the unpopular Democratic Party. Tehan emerged “as a man of character.... When he made mistakes, he admitted them.”
Tape/Side   29/2
Time   29:05
END OF TAPE 29, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   30/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   30/1
Time   00:30
MORE ON GREENE-TEHAN FIGHT (William and John)
Scope and Content Note: Basically a struggle for power in the party. Tehan was popular and Greene “kind of rode along on his popularity and was sort of using Tehan more than Tehan realized until somewhere along the way they clashed and Tehan emerged as the one who should run the show.”
Tape/Side   30/1
Time   01:40
THE ORIGINAL DOC OFFICERS (John and William)
Tape/Side   30/1
Time   04:45
EARLY DOC FINANCES (John and William)
Scope and Content Note: Poorly financed. All volunteer. Clifford and Hoan spent their own money on the DOC. Hoan was pretty well off by this time. First convention had a press room with an open bar. Paul Burke of Green Bay, an engineer, was generous to the party. A few bankers active in the party. John was John Reynolds' campaign manager for the 1950 congressional race, and “we just didn't have much money at all.”
Tape/Side   30/1
Time   09:00
1948 CAMPAIGN (John and William)
Scope and Content Note: Thompson drove around in a truck and “he'd speak to any group that would have him.” “Pretty disorganized.”
Tape/Side   30/1
Time   10:35
1950 CAMPAIGN (William)
Scope and Content Note: The Korean War and a major Chinese victory at a crucial time greatly hurt the Democrats. “It was a very, very, very unpopular position that Truman had at that time. That's why I guess I never could understand how we could get back into Vietnam after we finally wormed our way out of that (Korea).”
Tape/Side   30/1
Time   11:25
1949-1951 DEMOCRATS IN THE LEGISLATURE (William)
Scope and Content Note: Barely enough Democrats to get a roll call. Worked to a degree with former Progressives who were in the legislature now as Republicans. William introduced a bill for a consumers council to represent the public at hearings before commissions and the like. “Almost without exception” the old progressives supported that measure. Democrats in the legislature really did not have a program of their own at the time; to do so would have been “absurd.”
Tape/Side   30/1
Time   14:55
PARTY LINE VOTING MUCH MORE PREVALENT IN THE EARLY 1950s (William)
Scope and Content Note: William defeated for re-election, with the Korean War as an issue which brought many Democrats down. In 1952 Eisenhower “knocked out” Democratic county officeholders.
Tape/Side   30/1
Time   15:35
DEMOCRATS CONTROL BROWN COUNTY NOW AFTER A REPUBLICAN HIATUS INFLUENCED BY JOE MCCARTHY (William and John)
Tape/Side   30/1
Time   17:35
LITTLE OPPOSITION AMONGST OLD-LINE DEMOCRATS TO THE DOC (John and William)
Scope and Content Note: Jerry Fox smoothed over what differences there were. Old Democrats wanted to win again. There were some county chairmen who “felt abused when this organization kind of got build up around them.”
Tape/Side   30/1
Time   20:50
ELIZABETH HAWKES (William)
Scope and Content Note: “Nobody paid much attention to her.”
Tape/Side   30/1
Time   21:30
BLACK REPRESENTATION IN THE PARTY IN MILWAUKEE CAME FAIRLY EARLY (John and William)
Tape/Side   30/1
Time   24:00
ANECDOTE ABOUT A VISIT TO PAUL DOUGLAS IN CHICAGO (William and John)
Scope and Content Note: John and William were county and district chairs; Pat Lucey was along; John Reynolds had been the congressional candidate and was the head of the Office of Price Administration in Green Bay. “When we showed up in Chicago where they had all these mature, old-time politicians running the show, I think they got the biggest kick out of all the titles on such youngsters.”
Tape/Side   30/1
Time   26:00
ISSUES WERE UNIMPORTANT WHEN DOC WAS FIRST FORMED (John and William)
Tape/Side   30/1
Time   27:15
PRE-PRIMARY ENDORSEMENTS (John and William)
Scope and Content Note: Brown County people showed little sentiment for endorsement. John and William often had two friends running for the same statewide office.
Tape/Side   30/1
Time   29:05
END OF TAPE 30, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   30/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   30/2
Time   00:30
MORE ON PRE-PRIMARY ENDORSEMENT (William and John)
Scope and Content Note: Never had “a ghost of a chance” at the first convention.
Tape/Side   30/2
Time   01:30
JERRY CLIFFORD (William and John)
Scope and Content Note: Had a lot to do with selection of Green Bay for first DOC convention.
Tape/Side   30/2
Time   04:25
SMALL TALK
Tape/Side   30/2
Time   06:40
SELECTION OF NATIONAL COMMITTEEMAN AND NATIONAL COMMITTEEWOMAN (William and John)
Scope and Content Note: Do not recall how that was done at first. Eventually done by election at the annual convention.
Tape/Side   30/2
Time   09:45
IMPORTANCE OF FARM AND LABOR GROUPS (William and John)
Scope and Content Note: Labor “always considered a strong ally.” Miles Singler, a farmer, ran for Congress in the eighth district. Farmers Union was Democrat and Farm Bureau was Republican. Several Farmers Union leaders were party activists. Building trades were not very politically active and the State AFL-CIO, under George Haberman, was not very active. George Hall (State AFL-CIO secretary-treasurer) “was always an outspoken Democrat. But then, when Johnny Schmitt got in, there was no question about where the labor groups stood and it was a very significant part of the support of the Democrats.” Labor would contribute money even in districts where it had few members. Haberman never had much control over labor's political action committees. “I'm sure he was a Republican; there's not much question about that. But his influence was very minimal, I would say.” In Green Bay area, the paper mill unions, as such, were not very active; but leaders of these unions were active in the party. As time went on, union political action committees became more common and they were “Democratic.” Ran phone banks from the labor temple for a number of years.
Tape/Side   30/2
Time   15:00
RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN LEGISLATORS AND THE PARTY (John and William)
Scope and Content Note: The caucuses had a certain amount of discipline. “Of course, when we got the governor, that's when you had a real party organization .... Before that I suspect party discipline was pretty lax.”
Tape/Side   30/2
Time   16:50
MAINTENANCE OF ENTHUSIASM, 1948-1958 (John and William)
Scope and Content Note: Enthusiasm was kept up. Conventions were always spirited. Everyone seemed convinced the breakthrough would eventually come. “Those were rough years, I'll admit that.” The leadership was very young, as compared to today. A dedicated group.
Tape/Side   30/2
Time   19:55
RAPID GROWTH OF DEMOCRATIC PARTY FROM ALMOST NOTHING TO A GENUINE CONTENDER (John and William)
Scope and Content Note: Tradition of voting for Franklin Roosevelt on the national level helped considerably.
Tape/Side   30/2
Time   22:15
HENRY REUSS (William)
Scope and Content Note: A man of strong convictions. Became a powerful leader in Congress. Wisconsin Democrats were fortunate to have so many dedicated and competent people.
Tape/Side   30/2
Time   25:30
GAYLORD NELSON (William)
Scope and Content Note: Instinctively had strong feelings about consumerism before it was a big issue nationally.
Tape/Side   30/2
Time   25:50
HORACE WILKIE (William)
Scope and Content Note: A great humanist.
Tape/Side   30/2
Time   26:10
CALIBER OF YOUNG WISCONSIN DEMOCRATS WAS SUCH THEY PROBABLY WOULD HAVE BEEN LEADERS UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES (William)
Scope and Content Note: Because of the leadership vacuum in the Democratic Party, they got an early start. Responsible and loyal to the party.
Tape/Side   30/2
Time   28:55
END OF TAPE 30, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   31/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   31/1
Time   00:30
THE SALES TAX ISSUE (William)
Scope and Content Note: There were differences on this issue, “but nothing so bitter that it caused any real friction.” Doubt if Gaylord Nelson lost much support because of it.
Tape/Side   31/1
Time   02:00
PARTY SPLITS (William)
Scope and Content Note: Sometimes based on personalities, “but not too many real bitter ones among the original Democrats that I can recall.”
Tape/Side   31/1
Time   02:40
1950 DEMOCRATIC SENATORIAL PRIMARY (John and William)
Scope and Content Note: (Note: The interviewer's initial question was misstated, confusing the 1950 primary and the 1952 primary. This distorts the answer somewhat by incorrectly identifying Joe McCarthy as the Republican opponent.) Four candidates. William was in the same law firm as Laverne Dilweg, one of the candidates, but does not recall giving any speeches. John recalls supporting Tom Fairchild.
Tape/Side   31/1
Time   05:20
JOE McCARTHY AND THE McCARTHY ERA (John and William)
Scope and Content Note: “A good deal of soul-searching by everybody.” McCarthy opposed by many Republicans. “McCarthy was a very unusual man, a very strange individual.... As circuit court judge, he would occasionally come to Green Bay. No one thought him unusual then; but then, you know, it wasn't long before he was doing strange things.... It left a strange feeling that you don't forget; that whole McCarthy era was odd.” When the McCarthy issue came up at social gatherings, the mood would turn ugly. As a judge, McCarthy had been pretty likeable.
Tape/Side   31/1
Time   08:15
McCARTHYISM “WAS JUST RAMPANT” IN GREEN BAY (John and,William)
Scope and Content Note: Green Bay was eighty-five percent Catholic in 1952. McCarthy's crusade against Communists was well received in Green Bay. “That's why we lost the whole Democratic population in the courthouse that one year.”
Tape/Side   31/1
Time   11:30
EIGHTH CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT VERY DIFFICULT FOR DEMOCRATS (John and William)
Scope and Content Note: Victory possible for a Democrat only if the candidate has greater pulling power than merely being a Democrat. The district has many strong Republican areas, particularly Appleton. Strangely, Appleton had once been a Socialist stronghold.
Tape/Side   31/1
Time   14:00
DEFEAT OF JOHN REYNOLDS IN 1964 (John and William)
Scope and Content Note: As governor, he had had to raise taxes in a couple unpopular ways. Warren Knowles was a popular candidate. Some voters were unhappy with Reynold's generosity to the University.
Tape/Side   31/1
Time   16:05
JOHN'S SUPPORT OF EUGENE McCARTHY IN 1968 (John)
Scope and Content Note: Chairman of Brown County committee for McCarthy. Lots of support from young people. John's support was strictly on the peace issue. Had been a great supporter of Hubert Humphrey in the early days of the DOC. “I liked Humphrey. I figured he got caught up in Johnson's web on the war issue.” Was with McCarthy the day that Ted Kennedy came to Green Bay and told him Bobby Kennedy was going to run for president. “And he was pretty mad at Bobby that day.”
Tape/Side   31/1
Time   18:55
1968 DEMOCRATIC CONVENTION IN CHICAGO
Scope and Content Note: “The whole thing was just completely overplayed by the Chicago Police Department. Daley, I think, reacted much more severely than he had to. I think he was out to prove something and I don't think it would've got completely out of hand if they hadn't misused their judgement, such as beating all the kids.” Even on the convention floor, things were different from previous conventions--pushing, ordered to stay seated, etc.
Tape/Side   31/1
Time   20:25
HERMAN JESSEN (John and William)
Scope and Content Note: Not the best liked person in the world, but friendly once you got to know him. Liked controversy. Colorful in his speech. Anecdote about his explaining his diarrhea to everyone at a meeting.
Tape/Side   31/1
Time   22:25
A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE PROBABLY WAITING “FOR THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY TO DEVELOP, ALTHOUGH IT TAKES A WHILE FOR PEOPLE TO CHANGE NAMES POLITICALLY.” (William)
Scope and Content Note: Joke about the Irish being Democrats.
Tape/Side   31/1
Time   25:30
DAN HOAN (John and William)
Scope and Content Note: “He just loved politics.” An idealist. Knew how to fight. “Viewed government as an instrumentality that should be working in a positive way for people.”
Tape/Side   31/1
Time   28:00
GOVERNMENT NEVER PLAYED A NEUTRAL ROLE; “IT'S JUST A QUESTION OF WHICH WAY IT'S TUNED” (William)
Scope and Content Note: So-called laissez-faire government of the 1920s had the highest protective tariff in history and “we had a policy of shifting the loss of personal injury to the consumer and to the employee rather than to spread the loss over many people.”
Tape/Side   31/1
Time   29:05
END OF TAPE 31, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   31/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   31/2
Time   00:30
MORE ON DAN HOAN (William)
Scope and Content Note: He always wanted to be in the middle of the action. Well respected and well liked.
Tape/Side   31/2
Time   01:35
ELLIOT WALSTEAD (John)
Scope and Content Note: “A real straightforward guy.” Honest; good sense of humor.
Tape/Side   31/2
Time   03:50
FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT (William)
Scope and Content Note: A great educator of Democrats. Had a great concern for blacks, the poor, etc. Had to do battle with his own class. Bitterness against Roosevelt was very deep with some people.
Tape/Side   31/2
Time   05:45
PAT LUCEY-PHILLEO NASH COMPETITION FOR CHAIRMANSHIP OF THE PARTY (John)
Scope and Content Note: A “pretty spirited contest.” Pat felt Phileo was not doing enough organizing. Part of it was carryover from the previous convention when Nash beat Horace Wilkie by a narrow margin. “And Pat wanted to be chairman too.”
Tape/Side   31/2
Time   07:50
PHILLEO NASH (William)
Scope and Content Note: Interesting; had lots of stories about playing poker with Harry Truman.
Tape/Side   31/2
Time   08:10
MORE ON LUCEY-NASH COMPETITION FOR THE CHAIRMANSHIP (John)
Scope and Content Note: “A legitimate exercise in ambition.” Not philosophical.
Tape/Side   31/2
Time   09:50
OTHER SPIRITED CONTESTS WITHIN THE PARTY (John and William)
Tape/Side   31/2
Time   10:50
CURRENT PARTY ACTIVITY BY THE DUFFY BROTHERS (John and William)
Scope and Content Note: John goes to an occasional meeting, but is not active. “It's very time-consuming.” William is currently a judge and therefore inactive in politics.
Tape/Side   31/2
Time   13:10
HOW WELL THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF WISCONSIN TODAY FULFILLS THE PROMISE OF 1948 (John and William)
Scope and Content Note: Times change; problems change. Things like the Homestead Exemption on taxes are important, though not well-publicized. Democrats on regulatory commissions are a positive thing. Tony Earl “has done a terrific job as governor.” Smart; knows government; steps on toes when necessary. Lucey “was a great innovator.” Good at seeing his legislation through the legislature. By putting forward good candidates, the Democrats have had a positive effect on the Republicans. Environmental protection is a good example. Cleaner water today. State is well run.
Tape/Side   31/2
Time   17:30
JOHN BROGAN (William)
Scope and Content Note: Very active local Democrat. Has served on the DNR. Active in Gaylord Nelson's campaign and Earl's campaign.
Tape/Side   31/2
Time   18:35
JIM DILLON (William)
Scope and Content Note: Became a federal marshall during the Kennedy administration.
Tape/Side   31/2
Time   18:55
JACK GRADY (William)
Scope and Content Note: Colorful.
Tape/Side   31/2
Time   19:50
OTHER GREEN BAY AREA PARTY ACTIVISTS (William)
Tape/Side   31/2
Time   22:30
THE HIGH CALIBER OF EARLY DOC ACTIVITSTS (John)
Tape/Side   31/2
Time   24:15
THE RARITY OF HOW THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY DEVELOPED IN WISCONSIN (John and William)
Scope and Content Note: Basically a new party. The general compatibility of the principal characters.
Tape/Side   31/2
Time   26:00
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/32-33
Subseries: Ruth Doyle, 1985 January 4
Note: Access online.
Tape/Side/Part   32/1/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side/Part   32/1/1
Time   00:30
BIOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Parents active Democrats. Father had been in the legislature, as was his father and his grandfather. She was always interested in politics.
Tape/Side/Part   32/1/1
Time   01:35
ANECDOTE ABOUT ATTENDING A SMALL RECEPTION AT THE WHITE HOUSE IN 1940
Scope and Content Note: She and her husband moved to Washington, D.C., shortly after their marriage (in August 1940) She volunteered her services to the Democratic Party National Committee Women's Division. Had a temporary job selling dresses in a department store. Received a call from the White House at work. Was invited to a party for the Democratic National Committee office workers. Only twenty people at the party. In reception line behind a woman who was a polio victim and with whom President Roosevelt talked at length. Eleanor Roosevelt gave a tour of the White House. The whole thing lasted about two hours. “One of the great events of my life.”
Tape/Side/Part   32/1/1
Time   04:30
REAL ACTIVE POLITICAL PARTICIPATION OCCURRED AFTER RETURNING TO MADISON AREA IN 1946
Scope and Content Note: Elected secretary, of the Dane County Democratic Club in spring 1947.
Tape/Side/Part   32/1/1
Time   05:10
HER FIRST POLITICAL SPEECH
Scope and Content Note: At a large candidates' forum at the University of Wisconsin's Memorial Union. No one wanted to give a speech on behalf of President Truman, his popularity being at low ebb. She volunteered to give the speech and it was extremely well received. She realized later it was not her great speechmaking skill, but the unknown popularity of Truman.
Tape/Side/Part   32/1/1
Time   06:10
ELECTED TO THE LEGISLATURE IN 1948
Scope and Content Note: Did not expect to be elected. Very difficult, since she had three pre-school children at the time.
Tape/Side/Part   32/1/1
Time   06:25
FATHER'S ELECTION TO THE LEGISLATURE AS A DEMOCRAT IN THE 1932 ROOSEVELT LANDSLIDE WAS UNEXPECTED
Scope and Content Note: He only served one term because he was too busy at home. Parents considered themselves Roosevelt Democrats.
Tape/Side/Part   32/1/1
Time   08:50
SIBLINGS
Scope and Content Note: Two brothers and a sister. One brother slightly active in politics. Sister lives in Boston and is active in local politics.
Tape/Side/Part   32/1/1
Time   09:25
EARLY INTEREST IN POLITICS
Scope and Content Note: Attended Democratic Conventions with parents when in high school. Spend high school summer vacations in legislative galleries when her father was an assemblyman. “I really was fascinated, always. Up to a certain point.”
Tape/Side/Part   32/1/1
Time   9:50
HAS NOT BEEN ACTIVE IN PARTISAN POLITICS SINCE HUSBAND (JAMES E. DOYLE) WAS APPOINTED JUDGE
Tape/Side/Part   32/1/1
Time   10:10
FATHER
Scope and Content Note: A lawyer. Founder and secretary of a building and loan association in Wausau. Was working for Marshall-Isley bank in Milwaukee when she was born. Then was sick for four years; lived in Mayville; mother taught school. Then moved to Wausau when Ruth was about six years old.
Tape/Side/Part   32/1/1
Time   11:15
YEARS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN IN MADISON, 1934-1938
Scope and Content Note: Majored in history. Very involved in campus politics. Both she and her future husband were on the Daily Cardinal Board of Control and active in student politics. First year in college, “I felt absolutely fancy free.... By the second year I began to get serious about things... peace.” In the last semester of her senior year, she was president of the Daily Cardinal Board of Control; and the Board, as its last official action, appointed a Jewish editor. The next day, the newly elected Board of Control fired him. The old Board and the staff struck the Cardinal and published a “strike Cardinal” for six weeks. “It was an enormously important experience, a very concentrated, very concentrated period in which the Silver Shirts appeared on the campus and the Communist Party came in and tried to help out.... A very intensive quarrel.” Finally resolved when the university administration dissolved the old Daily Cardinal and established a new corporation with anew Board of Control. Big election for the new Board of Control, which the liberals lost by twenty-six votes.
Tape/Side/Part   32/1/1
Time   16:00
BIOGRAPHY AFTER COLLEGE
Scope and Content Note: Graduated from the University in 1938. Entered graduate school at Columbia University in the fall of 1939. Received a masters degree. Taught high school at Lake Mills for a year. Married Jim Doyle in summer of 1940, after he graduated from Columbia Law School. Returned to Wausau with her baby when husband entered the Navy. “Along with all my friends. We were all home for those crucial years. All of us had babies and...we developed a very nice little life over a couple year period there. And then the men started coming home and that ended it. Our little bridge groups had to break up....” Returned to Washington D.C. for a short while after the war. Not particularly politically active at this time.
Tape/Side/Part   32/1/1
Time   18:10
WISCONSIN POLITICS DURING WORLD WAR II
Scope and Content Note: Some liberal Democratic activity in Dane County and Dan Hoan ran for governor, but she was not involved.
Tape/Side/Part   32/1/1
Time   18:25
CARL THOMPSON'S GOOD SHOWING IN THE SPECIAL CONGRESSIONAL ELECTION, SPRING 1947, “STIMULATED A LOT OF POLITICAL ACTIVITY”
Tape/Side/Part   32/1/1
Time   19:00
AMERICAN VETERANS COMMITTEE
Scope and Content Note: Liberal veterans group her husband and most of their Democratic friends were involved in.
Tape/Side/Part   32/1/1
Time   19:25
DANE COUNTY DOC WAS A VERY IMPORTANT PART OF THEIR LIVES, SOCIALLY AND OTHERWISE
Scope and Content Note: Many old college friends became friends in the party once again. Carl Thompson and his wife; Horace Wilkie and his wife. “Madison is a great magnet,” which brought back many people who had been friends in college and who had dispersed during the War.
Tape/Side/Part   32/1/1
Time   22:25
CHILDREN
Scope and Content Note: Oldest born in 1943, son born in 1945, then a daughter in 1947, and the youngest in 1954.
Tape/Side/Part   32/1/1
Time   23:00
UNINVOLVED IN THE McCARTHY-LA FOLLETTTE PRIMARY IN 1946
Scope and Content Note: It was a Republican primary and they were in the process of returning to Wisconsin.
Tape/Side/Part   32/1/1
Time   23:50
CARL THOMPSON'S 1947 CONGRESSIONAL RACE
Scope and Content Note: The Doyles were still in Lake Mills. Interested in the race because of Carl and donated a little money, but not involved; husband was a U.S. attorney and thus under the Hatch Act.
Tape/Side/Part   32/1/1
Time   24:40
INVOLVEMENT IN DANE COUNTY DEMOCRATIC CLUB, 1947-1948
Scope and Content Note: Big debates over who should become president of the United States. Many meetings at George Card's house.
Tape/Side/Part   32/1/1
Time   26:45
FIRST STATEWIDE MEETING SHE RECALLS WAS IN MILWAUKEE IN THE MIDST OF THE GREENE-TEHAN FIGHT
Scope and Content Note: National Committeeman had control of postmaster appointments. Greene was seeking to oust Tehan as Committeeman. Main speech was given by Minneapolis Mayor Hubert Humphrey, “a exciting thing to happen.” She was unaware of the Greene-Tehan fight until she got to the meeting.
Tape/Side/Part   32/1/1
Time   30:10
MEETING IN MADISON AT CENTRAL HIGH SCHOOL WHICH SOME PEOPLE TRIED TO TURN INTO A STAMPEDE FOR EISENHOWER UNTIL PACKY McPARLAND GAVELLED ADJOURNMENT
Tape/Side/Part   32/1/1
Time   30:55
END OF TAPE 32, SIDE 1, PART 1
Tape/Side/Part   32/1/2
Time   00:40
ISSUES AT EARLY DOC MEETINGS
Scope and Content Note: Everyone a New Dealer, an internationalist, in favor of the Brannan Plan, supported the Korean War. Government spending and intervention. She did not pay any attention to internal struggles.
Tape/Side/Part   32/1/2
Time   02:30
END OF TAPE 32, SIDE 1, PART 2
Tape/Side/Part   32/2/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side/Part   32/2/1
Time   00:30
ORGANIZING LOCAL DOC UNITS
Scope and Content Note: A nucleus in every county. After first DOC convention, Pat Lucey was hired (actually in July 1951) to organize counties. One of his main goals was to get full county tickets. When Ruth went out to help organize, she generally served as the visiting speaker.
Tape/Side/Part   32/2/1
Time   02:30
EARLY PARTY FINANCES
Scope and Content Note: Postmasters and rural mailcarriers were the main contributors to party coffers. A few fund raisers. Not much money spent. “Shameful” the way money is spent in campaigns today. “The best way to campaign doesn't cost a nickel--the neighborhood meeting or the gatherings of people in small groups that want to talk to you about things.” Hand distributions, small meetings, telephone work. Spent less than one hundred dollars in her assembly campaigns. Usually paid her own expenses when she did party organizing.
Tape/Side/Part   32/2/1
Time   05:40
SHIFT FROM STATUTORY PARTY TO DOC WAS SMOOTH
Scope and Content Note: Oldtimers like Jerry Fox were helpful and welcoming. No struggle about “who gets the money.” William Carroll and others who opposed the liberalization of the party “rapidly disappeared.” “Generally speaking it was an expansion, not a struggle within the party.” “A very friendly organization.”
Tape/Side/Part   32/2/1
Time   07:35
RUTH'S CANDIDACY FOR AND ELECTION TO THE ASSEMBLY, 1948
Scope and Content Note: Could not find anyone else to do it. Had made the very successful pro-Truman speech. Figured she could not be elected anyway; “that's the last time I ever entered a race with that thought in mind.” Election victory was stunning. Anecdote about victory party at Park Hotel where Ruth remarked to a friend, “What is my mother going to say?” No polling at that time, although Truman had been to town and was enthusiastically received and also Truman and Carl Thompson had won the straw vote at West High School. She also won the straw vote at West High, but by the narrowest of margins. No one figured these results were all that significant.
Tape/Side/Part   32/2/1
Time   09:55
SERVICE IN THE ASSEMBLY
Scope and Content Note: Her election required a lot of adjustment. Being in the assembly required a lot of work. No staff; no office space; a pool of secretaries; desks in the chamber only, except for committee chairs. Many demands on her time. On the Education Committee, which was heavily involved at the time with school consolidation, which took up nearly every afternoon during the session. “Strenuous and interesting.” “I decided after two terms it really wasn't the way I wanted to spend my life.” Had a fulltime, live-in housekeeper for a couple years. “Made me feel sort of like a visitor in my own house.... I didn't really go for that.” Then got live-in students. “And my kids survived it all. They've done well.”
Tape/Side/Part   32/2/1
Time   12:20
RE-ELECTION IN 1950
Scope and Content Note: Did not consider not running. “I figured you owe anything two terms.”
Tape/Side/Part   32/2/1
Time   12:40
CAMPAIGN FOR STATE TREASURER IN 1952
Scope and Content Note: A lot more travelling. Travelled extensively for about six weeks during the campaign. Travelled with U.S. Senate candidate Tom Fairchild's wife Eleanor. Cordially received in general. Being a woman was not a drawback. One ugly situation in Wisconsin Dells, because of an audience which backed her opponent, who was a very conservative, very pro-McCarthy person. On the way out of the hall, was met by a high school boy who took them to the local Democratic headquarters, where they met a small group of Democrats. The young man turned out to be Jim Wimmer, who was later to become state chair of the Democratic Party. Generally people were very friendly. “I've always found campaigning very congenial; it's more fun than holding office actually.” Ran very well in Dane County.
Tape/Side/Part   32/2/1
Time   16:50
WHEN SHE WAS IN LEGISLATURE, DEMOCRATS ATTEMPTED TO INTRODUCE THE ENTIRE DOC PLATFORM, EVEN THOUGH THEY CONSTITUTED ONLY ABOUT TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT OF THE ASSEMBLY
Scope and Content Note: “We had a nice little group there.” Pat Lucey, Bill Duffy, Tom Taylor, and other freshmen. Had enough people to force a roll call.
Tape/Side/Part   32/2/1
Time   18:10
PROUD OF HER WORK ON THE EDUCATION COMMITTEE
Scope and Content Note: A bi-partisan effort. Committee took a lot of abuse. Proponents of the one-room school would fill the Capitol for the committee's hearings. Received a lot of letters from people accusing her of being the big city person trying to tell the rural people how to run their schools. The program, however, was very successful. Within a year or so many communities were building new schools and were very proud of these new structures. Cut the number of school districts from about 4800 to 400.
Tape/Side/Part   32/2/1
Time   20:05
PACKY MCPARLAND WAS DEMOCRATIC ASSEMBLY FLOOR LEADER WHEN SHE WAS IN THE ASSEMBLY
Scope and Content Note: Mike O'Connell, Eddie Mertz, and other oldtimers were the Democratic legislative leaders. Milwaukee types. Got along well with the new Democrats. Her best friends in the legislature, however, were former progressives, then serving as Republicans, older men, mostly farmers.
Tape/Side/Part   32/2/1
Time   21:30
POLITICAL ALIGNMENTS IN THE LEGISLATURE, 1948-52
Scope and Content Note: Former Progressives would usually line up with the Republicans on party line matters. “In those days... if you do something that changes peoples way of acting and so on, that is considered political (partisan), but anything that has a purely local interest...that was sincere; they would think you were sincere about your own community, but any broader view that you had, you were just a politician and all that stuff didn't matter.”
Tape/Side/Part   32/2/1
Time   22:15
RUTH INTRODUCED A BILL TO CLOSE STATE OFFICES ON SATURDAY AND PROVIDE A FORTY HOUR WORK WEEK FOR STATE EMPLOYEES
Scope and Content Note: Previously offices were open until noon on Saturday. Could not get her bill out of committee. Finally it was put on the calendar, but Vernon Thomson “stole the bill word for word.” Had it introduced as a committee bill and it passed by overwhelming margin.
Tape/Side/Part   32/2/1
Time   23:50
“VERNON THOMSON AND MARK CATLIN, PARTICULARLY, ENGINEERS OF A LOT OF SKULLDUGGERY IN THE LEGISLATURE IN THOSE DAYS”
Tape/Side/Part   32/2/1
Time   24:05
MORE ON STATE EMPLOYEE WORK WEEK BILL
Scope and Content Note: Actually the change was from a thirty-seven and a half hour week to a forty hour week, but with the closing on Saturday.
Tape/Side/Part   32/2/1
Time   24:50
HER ASSEMBLY DISTRICT WAS COMPARATIVELY VERY LARGE IN TERMS OF POPULATION
Scope and Content Note: Took in the entire city of Madison. There had not been any reapportionment since 1920.
Tape/Side/Part   32/2/1
Time   25:30
RUTH'S CAMPAIGN FOR ASSEMBLY IN 1960
Scope and Content Note: District now was just the west side of Madison. Presidential candidate John Kennedy did not carry the west side in 1960. The Irish Catholic thing. She lost. Used to get many votes from the east side.
Tape/Side/Part   32/2/1
Time   26:45
1952 CAMPAIGN FOR STATE TREASURER
Scope and Content Note: No one anxious to run for the lesser statewide offices at that time. “I wanted the experience of the campaign, I think.” Defeat did not bother her. Does not recall why she chose state treasurer rather than secretary of state or some other officer.
Tape/Side/Part   32/2/1
Time   29:00
END OF TAPE 32, SIDE 2, PART 1
Tape/Side/Part   32/2/2
Time   00:30
THE STATE TREASURERSHIP
Scope and Content Note: Warren Smith, who ran for the office as a Republican in 1948, made a remark about how one could become rich in that office because of its revenue collecting functions. Right after his election, the legislature stripped the office of most of its functions.
Tape/Side/Part   32/2/2
Time   01:40
ROLE OF WOMEN IN DOC
Scope and Content Note: Men held all the important positions. “Just the way things were.” She wrote an article for the Wisconsin Democrat on women in politics. In the article, pointed out how the Republicans had prevented a woman's candidacy and how she felt the Democrats would never be guilty of such a thing. On the other hand, she recalls a meeting up north where only three of the sixty people in attendance were women. When she pointed this out to a man after the meeting, he responded that the men did not know they could bring their wives. One of the reasons DOC was so successful in Dane County was that many “women volunteered their services and actually performed them. I think men often take these jobs and then don't do the job.” Dane County Democrats always had women on the board; state party always had women on the Administrative Committee. Women were shy about being candidates, however.
Tape/Side/Part   32/2/2
Time   05:05
END OF TAPE 32, SIDE 2, PART 2
Tape/Side   33/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   33/1
Time   00:30
DOC'S WOMEN'S ISSUES COMMITTEE
Scope and Content Note: Presumes its purpose was to get women active. She was never involved with it. She was too busy for much party involvement after she was elected.
Tape/Side   33/1
Time   02:35
WOMEN LEADERS IN DOC
Scope and Content Note: Julia Boegholt “felt that she was short changed.” Marge Benson “was much more of a team player:” Gladys Hoan was “very capable.” “Their row was harder to hoe in Milwaukee than it was here.” In Milwaukee a good deal of party planning took place at Wendelin Kraft's tavern and other places where women did not hang out. Helen Marty got along well with the men.
Tape/Side   33/1
Time   05:20
SERVED ON COUNTY BOARD, 1953-1960
Scope and Content Note: There were eighty-four members of the county board at the time and she was the only woman. “I was secretary of everything: You know, the woman that goes to the meeting, tends to be the secretary. And as a result of being a secretary and doing a good job of being a secretary, I got to be a very knowledgeable supervisor. In fact there was no recognition that I was even a woman on the county board.” Had her last baby in 1954 and never missed a meeting. Some members of the board did not even know she had the baby. “I'd been donating to the flower fund. Nobody sent me any flowers while I was in the hospital.”
Tape/Side   33/1
Time   07:20
SERVED ON SCHOOL BOARD, 1963-1972
Scope and Content Note: Only woman. Traditionally had been only one woman on the school board. Major change today where most school board members are women.
Tape/Side   33/1
Time   08:00
IN MADISON “WOMEN HAVE REALLY TAKEN OVER LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND THEY'VE DONE AN EXCELLENT JOB”
Tape/Side   33/1
Time   08:50
MORE ON THE COUNTY BOARD
Scope and Content Note: For several years while she was on the county board, she was also teaching high school in Oregon. She would get “terribly tired” because the meetings went on so far into the night.
Tape/Side   33/1
Time   09:30
HUSBAND'S CANDIDACY FOR GOVERNOR IN 1954 DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: It seemed “do-able.” Everyone underestimated Bill Proxmire's strength. Jim did not enjoy campaigning. Probably a good thing he was not elected. Later ran for circuit judge and lost. “The job he's had for the last twenty years (judge) is the one he's really suited for, and I think he's really enjoyed that.”
Tape/Side   33/1
Time   11:25
MANAGING SUCH A BUSY LIFE
Scope and Content Note: In 1954 her husband had just finished chairing the DOC, was serving as co-chair of the Americans for Democratic Action, and ran for Governor. She was teaching high school, serving on the county board, and having her fourth child. “I wonder. Every day I wake up and I wonder. Now I see my own daughters going through this same sort of thing, and I scold them, my youngest daughter particularly.” Youngest daughter is a professor and a law school dean in Arizona and was just elected to a board there; in addition she's writing a book. “I'm fussying at her, occasionally. I've given it up now. She says, 'it sounds just exactly the same words that grandma used to use on you.'” Good health, especially amongst the children, was an important reason why they could lead such busy lives. The children were “cooperative. And they kind of enjoyed politics.” “The other thing was that my husband and I were co-partners. He was a very much of a father. And we spelled each other off.” “Somehow, I don't know how, when they needed us, we were there.” Good live-in student helpers.
Tape/Side   33/1
Time   15:25
PHIL LA FOLLETTE, 1950s-1960s
Scope and Content Note: Law partner of her husband. He was quite conservative by that time, “but a fascinating, interesting man.” Politics did not come up often at social gatherings.
Tape/Side   33/1
Time   18:30
THE SUCCESS OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: “The Democrats were never as down and out as they appeared.” Her uncle, Dr. W.C. Sullivan, ran for governor in 1942 and made a respectable showing without conducting any campaign whatsoever. Dan Hoan came very close, with hardly any organization behind him. The national party provided a solid base of Democratic votes. Filling local tickets added many more votes.
Tape/Side   33/1
Time   21:20
MAINTAINING THE ENTHUSIASM, 1948-1958
Scope and Content Note: For the Doyles it was very enjoyable; a major part of their social life. In 1952, Adali Stevenson's presence was a big help. James Byrnes predicted to Jim Doyle before the Doyles returned to Wisconsin that Democratic politics in Wisconsin would be frustrating, with the vote hovering in the 40-50 percent range, but no victories. “Just exactly the way it happened.” Hubert Humphrey once suggested that Jim get a government post in Washington, D.C., but both Doyles had an immediate negative reaction.
Tape/Side   33/1
Time   25:50
FACTIONALISM IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: It was serious. “I think there was a great deal of resentment of the wise guys from Dane County upstate, but more particularly in Milwaukee. And we all kind of resented them because they didn't raise enough money in Milwaukee to run their own headquarters.” Things have improved a good deal in recent years. On the other hand, there is not much of a central organization left. Party seems segmented into constituencies of various successful candidates. “That has sort of changed the whole look of the party.”
Tape/Side   33/1
Time   28:30
END OF TAPE 33, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   33/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   33/2
Time   00:30
UNIMPORTANCE OF PARTY PLATFORMS TODAY
Scope and Content Note: People rally around candidates rather than the party--Kastenmeier people, etc. National Republican Party platform in 1984, “apparently no candidate could run on it.” In Wisconsin the candidates for Congress, senate, and governor “become very important as persons and the major fundraising organization sort of disappears.”
Tape/Side   33/2
Time   03:50
1985 WISCONSIN DEMOCRATIC PARTY COMPARED TO RUTH'S EXPECTATIONS IN 1948
Scope and Content Note: Has “great admiration for a number of the legislative leaders. I think our Dane County women have been great legislators. I would say it's probably done quite well.” It has remained liberal. Leaders are liberal and intelligent. Legislators, however, do no better than they did when she was in the legislature without staff and only paid one hundred dollars a month. Concerned about the ambitious young people on legislative staffs. Also, because of the pay and the abundant staff, legislators do not have to establish priorities and “there's no need to eliminate the nuttiest ideas from among the things that get proposed. Everything gets a full-scale treatment. But, on the whole, I think, it probably works pretty well.”
Tape/Side   33/2
Time   05:40
MOST IMPORTANT PEOPLE IN REBUILDING WISCONSIN'S DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: The traditional list Gaylord Nelson, Carl Thompson, Jim Doyle, Horace Wilkie, Pat Lucey particularly, Eddie Mesheski, Elliot Walstead, Henry Reuss.
Tape/Side   33/2
Time   07:15
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/34-35
Subseries: Carl Thompson, 1985 January 8
Note
Tape/Side   34/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   34/1
Time   00:30
ORGANIZING LOCAL DOC UNITS, 1948-1950
Scope and Content Note: Communicated with former Progressives and longtime Democrats informing them of the time and place of the local meeting. After the meeting, would work on those who did not come to the first meeting. “We learned as we went along.”
Tape/Side   34/1
Time   03:35
COMPARISON OF 1950 AND 1948 GUBERNATORIAL CAMPAIGNS
Scope and Content Note: The 1948 campaign was run out of the state DOC office. Had less than $10,000 for all campaigns, including the governor's election. In 1950, spent over $30,000, but this still was not enough to do the basic work of informing the voters about the candidates. “Nobody votes for nobody.” In 1948, had only one brochure. Main method of reaching the voters was through press releases. Someone loaned the campaign a vehicle in each campaign. In 1950, had a flat-bed truck which was used as a speaking platform. “In both campaigns, I was influenced by the campaign techniques used by Phil and Bob La Follette.” Campaigns used the Progressive Party “Black Book” to send post cards to people prior to Thompson stopping to make a speech.
Tape/Side   34/1
Time   08:55
ANECDOTE ABOUT MAKING FIVE SPEECHES IN A PARTICULAR COUNTY DURING THE 1948 CAMPAIGN WHERE NOT ONE LOCAL DEMOCRATIC OFFICIAL SHOWED UP
Tape/Side   34/1
Time   10:10
PROMOTING LOCAL CANDIDACIES
Scope and Content Note: Lester Johnson told Thompson that in 1948 Jackson County had a full slate of local Democratic candidates, but they spent all their energy on the Thompson campaign for governor. In 1950 they resolved not to do that and were very successful locally.
Tape/Side   34/1
Time   11:35
THOMPSON MADE A COPY OF THE PROGRESSIVE'S “BLACK BOOK”
Tape/Side   34/1
Time   11:55
1950 DEMOCRATIC SENATORIAL PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Milwaukee Journal issued several uncomplimentary editorials on Senator Alexander Wiley, suggesting that he was a “buffoon.” Democrats thought Wiley was vulnerable; hence, the great interest (four candidates) in the Democratic Primary. William Sanderson ran because of strong support from the farm co-op movement. Tom Fairchild knew a lot of people and was considered a strong candidate. Not sure why La Vern Dilweg ran.
Tape/Side   34/1
Time   14:00
SEVERAL FORMERLY HEAVILY DEMOCRATIC COUNTIES ARE NO LONGER STRONGLY DEMOCRATIC
Scope and Content Note: Dodge County and Brown County are two good examples.
Tape/Side   34/1
Time   14:55
MORE ON 1950 DEMOCRATIC SENATORIAL PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Dan Hoan probably ran because he thought his name was well enough known to get the nomination. Thompson publically supported no one, but probably voted for Fairchild.
Tape/Side   34/1
Time   15:50
DOC FINANCES IN THE EARLY GOING
Scope and Content Note: A large number of small contributors. Got one contribution of $500 in the 1948 campaign, “and that was almost unheard of.” The party made an effort to get contributions from postmasters and rural mailcarriers and those who had received high appointments from the national administration. However, the latter in general forgot who was responsible for their appointments. “I'm sure that in other states, people would get an average of ten times as much from these people as it worked out in Wisconsin.” Elected officials did not donate to the party; saved their contributions for their own campaigns. Very little money from labor sources in 1948, but the CIO contributed a good deal of money in 1950.
Tape/Side   34/1
Time   20:10
THE CATLIN ACT
Scope and Content Note: Thompson does not recall if it had much effect on labor's political contributions. However, the all night filibuster in the state senate, led by Henry Maier, against the Catlin Act made the labor people around the state feel that “we were the ones that were helping along this line.”
Tape/Side   34/1
Time   21:35
RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE MILWAUKEE COUNTY DOC AND THE STATE DOC
Scope and Content Note: Milwaukee pretty much had a county DOC prior to the establishment of the state DOC. It was important to people in Milwaukee to get jobs as precinct workers on election day and the ward organizations made the decisions as to who would get these jobs. This was one reason why Milwaukee had a county organization so early.
Tape/Side   34/1
Time   23:50
CAMPAIGNING AMONGST LABOR UNIONS
Scope and Content Note: As a candidate for governor, he would speak to five or six labor union meetings in one evening in Milwaukee. They would simply recess whatever they were doing whenever he arrived.
Tape/Side   34/1
Time   25:05
TENSION BETWEEN THE MILWAUKEE DOC AND THE STATE DOC
Scope and Content Note: Milwaukee people felt support of their county headquarters was sufficient.
Tape/Side   34/1
Time   27:00
THOMPSON'S DECISION TO RUN FOR THE ASSEMBLY IN 1952
Scope and Content Note: Had started his career backwards by running for Congress and governor first.
Tape/Side   34/1
Time   29:00
END OF TAPE 34, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   34/2
Time   30:25
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   34/2
Time   30:50
MORE ON THOMPSON'S 1952 ASSEMBLY RACE
Scope and Content Note: Was a little tired of running and losing. Proxmire vacated assembly seat to run for governor. Serious health problems in the early 1950s also convinced Thompson not to launch a statewide campaign. Health problems aggravated, if not caused, by his statewide campaigns where he gave about ten speeches a day and was always frustrated by being late for the next scheduled speech.
Tape/Side   34/2
Time   34:40
WHY HE GAVE UP NATIONAL COMMITTEEMAN POST IN 1956
Scope and Content Note: There were many people in the party who were interested in the position and many who felt Thompson had been in the position long enough.
Tape/Side   34/2
Time   35:55
FACTIONALISM IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: Part of it was the general feeling Wisconsinites outside Milwaukee have about the big city in the state. Does not recall any great contests for political appointments. Chicago Democrats insisted on all appointments to regional office on Korean War price controls since the office was located in Chicago.
Tape/Side   34/2
Time   39:25
1952 U.S. SENATE RACE
Scope and Content Note: Party made every effort to indicate that its opposition to McCarthy was to him as an individual. Tom Fairchild _a good alternative to McCarthy; many would have supported him no matter what ticket he ran on. “The best organizer the Democratic Party had during that period was Joe McCarthy.” Fairchild was a big draw at county meetings.
Tape/Side   34/2
Time   41:40
“JOE MUST GO” MOVEMENT
Scope and Content Note: Does not remember details, but does recall meetings where it was discussed.
Tape/Side   34/2
Time   42:25
PROXMIRE'S REPUDIATION OF ROBERT LA FOLLETTE SUCHER AS DEMOCRATIC ATTORNEY GENERAL NOMINEE
Scope and Content Note: Does not remember the reasons.
Tape/Side   34/2
Time   44:05
HOW THOMPSON MET HIS WIFE
Scope and Content Note: Farmer-Labor-Progressive Federation meeting. Did not realize he was supposed to be her date; did not buy her lunch; she had to borrow money from the people they were riding with.
Tape/Side   34/2
Time   46:15
ROLE OF FARM AND LABOR ORGANIZATIONS IN THE PROGRESSIVE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Debate at the founding convention whether the words “farm” and “labor” should appear in the title of the new party. Phil La Follette felt to do so would hinder vote getting amongst non-union workers and amongst non-Farmers Union and non-co-op people.
Tape/Side   34/2
Time   48:20
SALES TAX
Scope and Content Note: John Reynolds' opposition to the sales tax. “A real tough issue.” State was faced with serious revenue shortages and Nelson just “bit the bullet.”
Tape/Side   34/2
Time   50:40
1963 REAPPORTIONMENT
Scope and Content Note: Apparently decided there was no way to save Lester Johnson's congressional seat. Also, the Republicans may have insisted on this particular reapportionment plan or none.
Tape/Side   34/2
Time   52:50
MAINTAINING THE ENTHUSIASM, 1948-1958
Scope and Content Note: “I think all along people felt that 'we're going to do it some day.'” The Truman victory of 1948 sparked a lot of interest in the Democratic Party in Wisconsin. Eisenhower's victory in 1952 was an Eisenhower victory, not a Republican victory.
Tape/Side   34/2
Time   57:30
END OF TAPE 34, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   35/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   35/1
Time   00:45
FACTORS LEADING TO EVENTUAL SUCCESS OF DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN WISCONSIN IN 1958
Scope and Content Note: Gaylord Nelson defeated Vernon Thomson for governor in 1958. Carl used to speak at state Democratic conventions and say “that sanctimonious hypocrite from Richland Center, Vernon Thomson.” A lot of people who were not necessarily Democrats did not like Vernon Thomson. Also, Nelson had travelled the state. Nelson used an oratorical, preacher style when giving speeches at that time. Carl used the same style at the time. Both have switched to a more conversational style since then.
Tape/Side   35/1
Time   03:30
DECISION TO RUN FOR STATE SENATE IN 1959
Scope and Content Note: Special election to fill the seat vacated by Nelson when he became governor. Thompson's chances were good. Member of the state senate has an easier time getting “his way known” because he has only 32 colleagues, rather than the 99 colleagues in the assembly.
Tape/Side   35/1
Time   05:30
RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE LEGISLATORS AND THE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Many legislators felt they had to vote certain ways because of conditions in their districts, no matter what the party platform said. Many also felt that the Administrative Committee had little concern for legislators, that it was more concerned about passing a platform than electing people to office. Also, there were not many occasions when the legislators could get together with the party leaders. In Dane County, however, legislators attended nearly every party meeting. The party had a roll call published one year, which made some legislators livid. Dane County had a rotating position reserved for a legislator on the executive committee of the county party organization. Democrats elected in normally Republican districts--Lary Swoboda, for instance--do so because they are reaching Republican voters.
Tape/Side   35/1
Time   11:30
DIFFICULTY FOR POLITICIANS TO GET STORIES INTO THE NEWSPAPERS TODAY
Scope and Content Note: A great change from times past. When he ran for governor and later the legislature, the Madison newspapers would publish almost every press release he turned out. “Now, why, gee, you almost got to get up on top of the Capitol and jump off.” Situation is even more difficult outside Madison and Milwaukee. Carl's brother-in-law used to publish the weekly newspaper in Darlington. Once told Carl if he jumped off the top of the Capitol the only reason it would get into the Darlington paper “is that your sister lives in Darlington.”
Tape/Side   35/1
Time   13:20
DEMOCRATS HAVE ALWAYS ACCEPTED MOST ANYONE INTO THEIR RANKS
Scope and Content Note: In the early days of the DOC, the party members thought they should have “a greater voice in how the legislator is going to act.” Great philosophical differences in the state senate. Warren Braun was probably the most liberal member of the senate before running for Congress; liberal on everything, except abortion. Won elections by overwhelming margins, just as his conservative predecessor did.
Tape/Side   35/1
Time   16:15
CAMPAIGNING
Scope and Content Note: “Many people who are active in political campaigns in the legislature feel that the number of people who you have met, said 'hello' to, or knocked on their door, whatever, is a very much greater factor than how you vote and so forth.” Many people feel Gaylord Nelson lost his senate seat “because he didn't come back often enough and didn't attend some of these functions. And of course, Bill Proxmire, nothing gets by him, including anybody going into a football game in Madison or Green Bay or Milwaukee.” Although, there are some Republicans who vote for Proxmire because of his conservative image.
Tape/Side   35/1
Time   17:25
GOVERNOR MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE SETS THE PARTY'S LEGISLATIVE POLICY
Scope and Content Note: Some legislators, however, will introduce a bill and make a big thing of it. After a time, it will find its way into the party platform or become a party resolution. Would not be that easy, however, for a governor to ignore the party's platform on a particular issue. Phil La Follette determined policy more than modern day governors. La Follette would meet with Progressive legislators at lunch- Rennebohm sandwiches--shortly before a vote on a bill so that they would not be waylaid by lobbyists before the vote.
Tape/Side   35/1
Time   20:35
THOMPSON NEVER HELD A LEADERSHIP POSITION IN THE LEGISLATURE
Scope and Content Note: Was more or less offered any leadership role he wanted shortly after the Democrats first won a majority in the state senate (1974). He asked to be on the Committee on Committees and “the chairmanship of a committee that I pick the subjects from.” Specifically turned down the position of majority leader, in favor of a more conservative senator, on the assumption that the more conservative senator would have a better chance of swaying people on marginal votes. The only problem with being on the Committee on Committees was he had to listen to the assignments everyone else wanted and would frequently give up assignments he wanted, especially the Education Committee.
Tape/Side   35/1
Time   23:45
PROUD OF ACCOMPLISHMENTS FROM HIS ROLE ON THE EDUCATION COMMITTEE
Scope and Content Note: Governor now agrees with him on using school aids as an instrument of property tax relief.
Tape/Side   35/1
Time   24:25
ACHIEVEMENTS IN THE AREA OF EDUCATION
Scope and Content Note: Service on the Doyle Committee which studied problems of schools. He was instrumental in having the committee recommend going from thirty percent to forty percent state support of local school districts. Persuaded Governor Lucey to support this concept. Appears that the current governor is pushing for forty-five percent. Twofold good comes from this: 1) holds down property taxes; 2) permits school districts to adopt a better education program.
Tape/Side   35/1
Time   26:35
ABORTION
Scope and Content Note: Feels he was able to prevent passage of an anti-abortion amendment to the constitution. Showed his colleagues that their own polls indicated the people in their districts felt abortion to be a matter of a woman's individual conscience. “Let Carl handle it”--take the heat.
Tape/Side   35/1
Time   17:45
END OF TAPE 35, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   35/2
Time   29:10
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   35/2
Time   29:40
VETERANS HOUSING
Scope and Content Note: Thompson was leader of a group of three people who put together a proposition which was accepted by both Governor Lucey and Secretary of Veterans Affairs John Moses. As a consequence, many veterans were able to purchase homes who otherwise would not have been able to do so.
Tape/Side   35/2
Time   31:35
ATTEMPTS TO ABOLISH PAROLE AND TO IMPOSE UNIFORM SENTENCING
Scope and Content Note: He was successful in stopping these efforts. One of the problems with parole is that there are two kinds of parole: 1) those released on a discretionary basis, who are running eighty to ninety percent non-return to prison; 2) those released early automatically, simply by putting in good behavior time, who have a much higher recidivism. Thompson also opposed determinant sentencing. Favors consistent sentences; sentences should not depend on who the judge is.
Tape/Side   35/2
Time   36:10
PROPERTY TAXES
Scope and Content Note: Thompson would have liked to have brought state aid to school districts up to sixty percent.
Tape/Side   35/2
Time   37:00
DEMOCRATIC PARTY HAS BEEN A GOOD ALTERNATIVE TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: Existence of two parties leads to consideration of all important issues.
Tape/Side   35/2
Time   38:30
COST OF MEDICAL CARE WILL HAVE TO BE ADDRESSED LEGISLATIVELY IN THE NOT. TOO DISTANT FUTURE.
Scope and Content Note: Particularly for the elderly, who are the most expensive people on medicaid.
Tape/Side   35/2
Time   40:35
CORRECTIONAL INSTITUTION ISSUES
Scope and Content Note: Need for educational and work programs.
Tape/Side   35/2
Time   42:00
CONCLUDING REMARKS ON THE DOC
Scope and Content Note: One of the main reasons for its success was the belief by activists in a “club system.” Amazing that the leaders of the Democratic Party and the old Progressive Party were successfully brought together, when as late as 1938 the Democrats had formed an electoral coalition with the Republicans to defeat the Progressives. Brought in nearly all Progressives who were not officeholders or strong isolationists. Dan Hoan's gubernatorial candidacies were important in bringing Socialists in. “The great effort we made to support farm programs and solicit farm membership, I think, was fruitful.” Joe McCarthy drove many into the Democratic Party; Tom Fairchild, as McCarthy's opponent, brought many moderates into the party.
Tape/Side   35/2
Time   48:40
END OF INTERVIEW
Subseries: Jim Doyle
Audio   1030A/36-37
1985 January 15
Note: Access online.
Tape/Side   36/1
Time   00:20
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   36/1
Time   01:10
BIOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Born in Oshkosh, parochial grammar school; public high school. Father had a paint store; manufactured the paint on the third floor of the building. Also had a filling station. Mother a housewife. Neither graduated from high school, but both knowledgeable. Four older sisters. Irish, Catholic on both sides of the family. Parents not active politically. Father very conservative politically; very anti-La Follette.
Tape/Side   36/1
Time   04:15
POLITICAL ACTIVITIES AT UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON
Scope and Content Note: Developed his political leanings at the University. Attended UW 1933-1937. By second year of college was very involved in campus politics. Memorial Union Student Board roughly equivalent then to the current Student Association, except that it was all male, as was the Memorial Union. As a junior, managed Carl Thompson's campaign for senior class president. He lost to Carol Morse, Senator Wayne Morse's younger sister. Political ferment on campus. Young Communist League and some front groups. Intellectual antagonism between Selig Perlman and the communists. Doyle was not a Young Progressive and was not attracted to them. The New Deal “was too tame for me. I didn't think that it was a powerful enough change from the strictly free enterprise system.” Considerably left of center politically, but not affiliated with any party. Most distinct political lines on campus were between the fraternities and sororities on the one hand and the independents on the other; roughly equivalent to conservatives and liberals.
Tape/Side   36/1
Time   11:55
DOYLE ELECTED SENIOR CLASS PRESIDENT
Scope and Content Note: Marvin Laird's older brother, Dick, was the fraternities' candidate against Doyle. The vote was probably 225-150 out of 1500 to 2000 students. At his class' forty-fifth reunion a few years ago no one had the slightest recollection of the election, even though he thought it was very important at the time.
Tape/Side   36/1
Time   13:50
COSMOPOLITAN ATMOSPHERE ON CAMPUS WAS BIGGEST FACTOR IN SHAPING HIS POLITICAL VIEWS
Scope and Content Note: Influenced by several teachers, but his political views developed independently of the classroom. Majored in history. Influenced by English constitutional historian Bob Reynolds and by William Hesseltine, American history professor. Also influenced by the “continuing debate” in philosophy between Max Otto, a pragmatist, and Alexander Meiklejohn, an idealist.
Tape/Side   36/1
Time   16:40
IN 1936, HIS FIRST ELECTION, VOTED FOR FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT FOR PRESIDENT AND FOR PROGRESSIVES ON THE STATE LEVEL
Tape/Side   36/1
Time   17:10
DOYLE AND HIS FUTURE WIFE (RUTH BACHHUBER) WENT TO COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY AFTER THE UW
Scope and Content Note: He went to Columbia law school in 1937 and she came to graduate school there a year later. Active in student politics at Columbia also, Moot courts on campus similar to fraternities except that they were the structure around which the mock trial aspect of one's legal education were organized. Teams from the various moot courts would compete against each other arguing cases. Moot courts had sharp discrimination against Jews; “so we had a big rhubarb almost the whole time I was there.” Issue eventually resolved favorably. At Columbia his politics remained to the left of the Democrats. As at the UW, he was a “peacenik” when he started at Columbia, but eventually became more anti-Hitler than pro-peace. The Spanish Civil War diluted his pacifism.
Tape/Side   36/1
Time   23:15
“I NEVER, NEVER IMAGINED THAT THERE WAS ANY OTHER WAY TO GO AT IT THAN TO ATTEMPT TO GET CONTROL OF GOVERNMENT AND TO WIN THE OPPORTUNITY TO USE THE POWER OF GOVERNMENT IN THE DIRECTION THAT I THOUGHT THINGS SHOULD GO.”
Scope and Content Note: Never any doubt about the efficacy of government. Never had the alienation from government or the lack of confidence in government as a means for solving problems which later characterized many students in the 1960s.
Tape/Side   36/1
Time   24:30
GOT A JOB WITH THE U.S. JUSTICE DEPARTMENT RIGHT AFTER GRADUATION FROM COLUMBIA LAW SCHOOL, 1940
Scope and Content Note: Professor Herbert Wechsler at Columbia was invited by Solicitor General Francis Biddle to take a sabbatical to work for a year representing the United States in criminal cases before the Supreme Court at the time Doyle graduated. Wechsler was invited to bring along a law clerk. Doyle was quick to accept the offer.
Tape/Side   36/1
Time   26:20
ANECDOTE ABOUT HOW HE BECAME LAW CLERK TO SUPREME COURT JUSTICE JAMES F. BYRNES, 1941-1942
Scope and Content Note: Byrnes never finished high school; admitted to the bar by studying in a law office while working as a court reporter. A key figure in the U.S. Senate during the New Deal years. Appointed to the Supreme Court in 1941. Byrnes did not know how Supreme Court Justices selected their law clerks, so he asked Justice Hugo Black to pick two law clerks for the year, one for Black and one for Byrnes. Doyle and another fellow showed up at Black's outer office one day. Black and Byrnes came out for a short interview, then returned to Black's office and flipped a coin. “I always felt that I got the better of that flip....”
Tape/Side   36/1
Time   28:50
END OF TAPE 36, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   36/2
Time   30:15
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   36/2
Time   31:00
MORE ON BEING LAW CLERK FOR JUSTICE BYRNES AND ITS EFFECT ON DOYLE
Scope and Content Note: “A very important time in my life politically as well as otherwise.” Close association. Only Byrnes, his secretary (also from South Carolina), and Doyle were in the office. “I just began to get ideas about how it really is in American politics and American institutions in a way that I had never really glimpsed before.” Admired Byrnes greatly. “A glimpse of an extremely able and very pragmatic person, a principled person according to his lights with a totally different orientation than mine.” What the South looked like through the eyes of a white southern politician. Becoming a Democrat at this time, although the transition began as soon as he came to Washington, D.C. The difficulties of conceiving of social and economic programs, shaping them into legislation, and then shaping them into administrative application. “The total effect of it was conservative in that it was to conservatise me in the sense that my ideas about great radical transformations in the society in the right direction.... My notions about that were undercut considerably.” Herbert Wechsler was the person who paved the way for his getting the clerkship with Byrnes. A network by which young attorneys got clerkships with Supreme Court Justices.
Tape/Side   36/2
Time   37:05
ENTERED THE NAVY IN 1942
Scope and Content Note: A supply corps officer. Could not be a line officer because of his color blindness. Anecdote about how he and UW political science professor Leon Epstein experimented with their diet to try to remedy their color blindness. Went to supply corps school at Harvard Business School, then to Norfolk where he was in “an advance base unit” which organised naval bases overseas. Eventually wound up as supply officer on a Navy cargo ship in the Pacific Ocean. “Not a fighting ship. Around the backwaters, on the edges of the fighting, but close enough.”
Tape/Side   36/2
Time   40:35
OFFICE OF WAR MOBILIZATION AND RECONVERSION, 1945
Scope and Content Note: At Roosevelt's request, Byrnes left the Court in Summer of 1942 to become the United States' “Economic Czar” for the War. Small staff of people; office in the White House. In January 1945 Byrnes located Doyle and had him transferred back to Washington to work on Byrnes' staff. Byrnes resigned on April 1, 1945.
Tape/Side   36/2
Time   43:55
THE STATE DEPARTMENT, 1945-1946
Scope and Content Note: Right after Harry Truman became president, Truman asked Byrnes to return to Washington as Secretary of State, which he did as of July 1, 1945. Doyle then joined Byrnes in the State Department. “When I said earlier that I thought that I got the better of that toss of the coin, I meant that, having been Byrnes' law clerk rather than Black's meant that I had the chance to be with Byrnes briefly while he was War Mobiliser and then for a year while he was in the State Department.” “I had no background to bring to either of these assignments.” In the State Department Doyle served as an assistant to the Counselor (advisor) of the State Department, Benjamin Cohen.
Tape/Side   36/2
Time   48:00
RETURNED TO WISCONSIN IN 1946
Scope and Content Note: “Ruth and I really never imagined anything other than that we would...come back to Wisconsin, and we were just carrying that out. It was a big change and kind of a deflationary change, I must say, for me, in terms of just the sense of being in on big doings....” In Washington, those who are not elected and who do not have their power base back home are dependent on elected officials for their positions. That would have bothered him after a while.
Tape/Side   36/2
Time   51:40
ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, MADISON, WISCONSIN, 1946-1948
Scope and Content Note: Was looking for a position in Wisconsin, noticed this opening, applied, and got it. Much later he came to think that the U.S. Attorney at the time “thought that he was supposed to appoint me,” given the State Department, James Byrnes, etc. connections.
Tape/Side   36/2
Time   54:35
1946 SENATE PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Ambivalent, but voted in the Democratic primary since he was a Democrat by this time.
Tape/Side   36/2
Time   55:20
DOYLE WAS UNDER THE PROVISIONS OF THE HATCH ACT “FOR TWO IMPORTANT YEARS IN THERE,” 1946-1948
Scope and Content Note: Hatch Act was relatively new at the time and Doyle took it seriously. His wife and all his friends, however, were getting more and more involved in politics and he obviously engaged in many informal discussions and “was waiting anxiously for the time when I could get into it.”
Tape/Side   36/2
Time   57:05
BY THE SUMMER OF 1948, ALMOST ALL HIS FRIENDS HAD DECIDED TO JOIN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Tape/Side   36/2
Time   58:10
END OF TAPE 36, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   37/1
Time   00:05
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   37/1
Time   00:55
AMERICAN VETERANS COMMITTEE (AVC)
Scope and Content Note: “Citizens First, Veterans Second.” An alternative to the American Legion and the Veterans of Foreign Wars. Consciously not to be a lobbying group for veterans interests, “but to be the veterans organization that would carry through on the purpose of World War II and to establish freedom and equality here in the United States and peace in the world; it was to have marked the whole turning point in the whole history of warfare and the aftermath of warfare in that this veterans group would be different....” Strongly liberal; organized and developed by independent minded people. “Extremely important organization in terms of the general theme of our conversations about what was to happen later in Wisconsin in the Democratic Party.” Through the AVC, all the people who were trying to decide where to go politically, in the wake of the 1946 elections, “could start doing their thing”--organising, finding one another, developing platforms, etc. “In that context a whole lot of us really came to know and see one another a lot.” “Petered out” about 1950. Nationally may have had about 20,000 members; maybe 1000-1500 at its peak in Wisconsin. “We got to know the labor people, the young labor people, in that context.” Horace Wilkie was very prominent in AVC. Red Newton and Elmer Beck were labor people in AVC. AVC differed from AmVets in that AmVets was similar to the American Legion, except designed for World War II veterans.
Tape/Side   37/1
Time   09:10
JOINED THE LA FOLLETTE, SINYKIN AND DOYLE LAW FIRM, 1948; THE GLENN FRANK AFFAIR
Scope and Content Note: Phil La Follette and Doyle had known each other a little during Doyle's college days. A fortunate thing for Doyle, largely because of his treasured association with Gordon Sinykin. La Follette was aware of Doyle during his college days because he was “around” with many of the Young Progressives, but perhaps most because of the Glenn Frank episode on campus, in which Doyle testified, as senior class president, that it was difficult to judge student opinion in regards to Frank. It was important for La Follette to have someone say that the student body was not necessarily one hundred percent in favor of Glenn Frank. Horace Wilkie's father was chairman of the Board of Regents at this time. Joined the La Follette firm as a partner; there was only the three of them. Phil La Follette was interested in having his own law firm, “but he really wasn't too interested in getting into heavy day by day law practice, and he never really did.” Phil was active in many corporations outside the law firm. Sinykin was a “hardcore La Follette progressive,” and never became active in the Democratic Party.
Tape/Side   37/1
Time   18:15
PHIL LA FOLLETTE'S POLITICAL ORIENTATION AFTER 1946
Scope and Content Note: Very conservative and grew steadily more conservative. A right-wing Republican. However, he supported Earl Warren for president; probably thought Warren was more conservative than he turned out to be. Phil was “very kind and warm and friendly to me.” Doyle did not focus on La Follette and his political opinions because he was so wrapped up in his own political activities. A militarist. Devoted to Douglas MacArthur. Very anti-Soviet. Isolationism had changed to internationalism. Believed in world leadership for America, through the exercise of its industrial and military power.
Tape/Side   37/1
Time   25:25
DOYLE TOTALLY INVOLVED IN THE 1948 CAMPAIGN AFTER BEING RELEASED FROM THE HATCH ACT
Tape/Side   37/1
Time   28:30
END OF TAPE 37, SIDE 1
Note: Tape 37, Side 2 is blank.
Audio   1030A/38-40
1985 January 23
Note: Access online.
Tape/Side   38/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   38/1
Time   00:35
RECRUITMENT OF TOM FAIRCHILD AS ATTORNEY GENERAL ON THE 1948 TICKET
Scope and Content Note: Carl Thompson, as candidate for governor, seemed a foregone conclusion, given his good showing in the 1947 special congressional election. Tom Fairchild's father was a Wisconsin Supreme Court Justice. “It was a marvelous name and a marvelous family, and reeked of respectability.” Fairchild was very interested in the DOC, but was less active than those of the “inner circle.” At the time no one expected him to win. The Republican primary was won by Donald Martin, who “did not have a very good reputation. The Republicans were dismayed with the fact that he had won the primary and that he was the candidate.” Fairchild received the endorsement then of many moderates and some identifiable Republicans. There was no serious talk about anyone except Fairchild for the Democratic ticket.
Tape/Side   38/1
Time   07:30
LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR, SECRETARY OF STATE, AND STATE TREASURER CANDIDACIES IN 1948
Scope and Content Note: “Something of a flap” developed on the question of a lieutenant governor candidate. Henry Reuss was “interested in his own future, I would say, just a little bit more immediately than many of the rest of us. I don't mean to say he was any more ambitious for himself than any of the rest of us, but he was thinking about things.” Reuss was hesitant to run for lieutenant governor and suffer a smashing defeat which might injure his political career. For a time it appeared that Miles McMillin might run, but he decided not to, a decision he was later very happy about. Henry Reuss moved back into the picture, and, when he did, McMillin moved out; no one was making a formal announcement. Tony Gawronski, a member of the old guard, finally was the candidate. Earl Stoneman, who had farm co-op and Rural Electrification Administration (REA) connections, ran for Secretary of State; he was very reluctant to be a candidate because of his age and position. Miles McNally, an old-line, conservative banker, ran for state treasurer; “and he too was prevailed upon to do it for the good of the cause.”
Tape/Side   38/1
Time   12:10
BOB TEHAN
Scope and Content Note: He was in charge. He “was not only opening the door to us, but encouraging us very, very actively to move in aggressively and actively and to do things, like putting this slate together.... We were always reporting back in to Bob and accepting his guidance and his suggestions about the whole thing.” The Gawronski and McNally candidacies were “undoubtedly” the result of Tehan's counsel.
Tape/Side   38/1
Time   13:40
JEROME FOX
Scope and Content Note: Not far behind Tehan in his importance at this time. Much less involved on a daily basis than Tehan, but “perceptive about what was going on and about the potential for a big change and a big surge in Democratic strength right then.” In his own way was as helpful as Tehan.
Tape/Side   38/1
Time   15:10
MORE ON BOB TEHAN
Scope and Content Note: Tehan was a liberal, “a remarkable man; a very, very bright man.” Looked like the prototype of the Irish Catholic city politician. “Right at the core of Milwaukee politicians, Democratic politicians.” Tehan “generally shared the attitudes that were expressed by” the New Republic.
Tape/Side   38/1
Time   18:25
MORE ON JERRY FOX
Scope and Content Note: Considerably less ideological than Tehan. Sardonic; good-natured. “I kind of think he never shared our firm belief that we were actually going to change mankind.” Skillful in cajoling the more active of the older Democrats “to be patient with us and to go along with us.” “What pains-in-the-neck we must have been when we emerged on the scene and encountered these people and started explaining things to them that they'd known for thirty or forty or fifty years.”
Tape/Side   38/1
Time   19:50
TEHAN WOULD HAVE SUPPORTED REUSS OR McMILLIN FOR LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR IF THEY HAD DECIDED TO RUN IN 1948
Tape/Side   38/1
Time   21:15
WILLIAM CARROLL WAS THE ONLY CONSERVATIVE TO CHALLENGE A LIBERAL IN THE 1948 DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: This showed the weakness of the conservatives. “I never was aware of any considerable resistance among the older, and perhaps more conservative, Democrats about that whole effort in there in 1948 and on into 1950 and '52 about just having the place sort of flooded with these younger people running for this, that, and the other.” Carroll was the only one Doyle can remember “who seemed to feel rather strongly at the time that we would take the party in directions that were too liberal.” A faint conservative candidacy; little support.
Tape/Side   38/1
Time   23:45
GREENE-TEHAN FIGHT
Scope and Content Note: “We were all Tehanites.” “None of us outside Milwaukee had the faintest idea what was really behind the difficulties that had arisen between him and Greene, which seemed to be just a collection of incidents that had no ideological content...” The Fond du Lac meeting (which founded the DOC) “was a Tehan move, undertaken to counter Charlie Greene's initiatives....” “So I think that historic occasion was really prompted by rather mundane considerations.”
Tape/Side   38/1
Time   27:00
END OF TAPE 38, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   38/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   38/2
Time   00:30
DOYLE'S CO-CHAIRMANSHIP OF THE DOC, 1949
Scope and Content Note: Cannot remember when he assumed this title and when it was turned over to Gaylord Nelson. Because Jerry Fox was up in Chilton and was not interested in “pouring hours and hours into all the nitty-gritty of it...it was agreed early in the game that somebody in Madison would be a co-chair and would really look after things at a headquarters office.”
Tape/Side   38/2
Time   06:30
DECISIONS ON WHOM TO INVITE TO DOC MEETINGS PRIOR TO THE GREEN BAY CONVENTION
Scope and Content Note: Always trying to broaden the base. “We had a bunch of meetings during those years halfway between Madison and Milwaukee.” Must have gone to at least one meeting a month. “The group that would meet would change from time to time.” Horace Wilkie was very prominent in the work of the DOC. Others who would regularly attend these meetings were Carl Thompson, Miles McMillin, Bob Tehan, Andy Biemiller, Henry Maier, Wendelin Kraft, and others. Would discuss how to fit Milwaukee's organization into a statewide effort, personalities as potential candidates and party officers, etc. At these meetings, the group might decide it would be important to invite someone from the CIO or a farm co-op to the next meeting.
Tape/Side   38/2
Time   12:20
MEETINGS DEALT WITH ORGANIZATION, NOT ISSUES
Scope and Content Note: An implicit assumption that everyone shared the same point of view on issues. “I really don't think that it ever occurred to us that any differences of opinion that we might have about some specific issue that had to do with government rather than with politics would divide us, even though we might have some variations in our views about those things.”
Tape/Side   38/2
Time   14:20
CREATION OF THE DOC CONSTITUTION
Scope and Content Note: The task of drafting the constitution was divided up to some extent, “but I did most of the drafting for all parts of it, I would say.” Wide participation, but everything was funneled to Doyle who would do the actual drafting. “We were all caught up with the idea...that we were developing an organisational structure that would fill a huge gap that was left by the statutes of the state on the subject of political organizations.” Statutes provided for the election of precinct committeemen who would elect a county chair; but no real statewide organization grew out of this set up. The only statewide organisation was “the so-called platform committee” which met after the September primary and consisted of the legislative and state officer candidates who had won the primary. No cohesion and not a membership organisation. Intention of DOC was to provide a broad-based membership organization. Republican Voluntary Committee was not very broadly based; was mainly to avoid statutory limitations on fundraising, which was also one of the reasons for the formation of the DOC. Anecdote about Doyle's drafting of the preamble to the DOC constitution and how Carl Boegholt, a University philosophy professor who was a pragmatist, loved the part about how “Means shape ends. To be a force for democracy a political party must be a democracy.”
Tape/Side   38/2
Time   24:05
PRE-PRIMARY ENDORSEMENTS
Scope and Content Note: The endorsement policy was unquestioned at the beginning. Tom Coleman, boss of the Republican Party, thought endorsements were a very important part of the party function. Democrats thought “that was an awful thing.” This view especially prevalent amongst former Progressives; felt pre-primary endorsements violated everything old Bob La Follette stood for on openness in government. Doyle was not particularly interested in this issue at that time. Felt this would be “one of our talking points”--no bosses in the Democratic Party. In later years he became the leading proponent of endorsements.
Tape/Side   38/2
Time   27:50
END OF TAPE 38, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   39/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   39/1
Time   00:30
MORE ON PRE-PRIMARY ENDORSEMENTS
Scope and Content Note: Probably as early as 1950 he began to see the problems of not endorsing prior to the primary. Came to feel that the DOC was “sort of a peer democracy,” which had developed and grew in membership, but “when the time came to run people for office and get them elected, the DOC and all of its members, as an institution, as an organization, just retired from the field and let nature take its course in the primaries.” The Capital Times made endorsements and labor made endorsements, and by so doing they had more influence in the outcome of elections than the party did. Never felt DOC endorsements would “determine” the outcome of primaries, since Capital Times and labor endorsements would still be made and would have at least as much influence. Doyle's position was the party should leave itself free to endorse, if the party decided it wanted to endorse and if it was practical to do so. “That really never got anywhere.” “The La Follette Progressive mythology...was much too potent.” In the Progressive Party, however, Phil and Bob La Follette “would pass the word and that was it. We didn't have a counterpart for that.” Even though there were contests for offices in the Democratic primary, “I didn't envisage very well then, and I don't think any of us did, how fragile the party was, how relatively weak the party was and how weak it would be proven to be as time went on, particularly when some of us won office, like the governorship, the senatorship, or something.” By the 1950s political parties were beginning to fade in importance as compared to the personal organisations of candidates, “and by now the transformation is almost total, almost everywhere.”
Tape/Side   39/1
Time   11:25
PROXMIRE'S REJECTION OF ROBERT LA FOLLETTE SUCHER, THE DEMOCRATIC ATTORNEY GENERAL PRIMARY WINNER IN 1956
Scope and Content Note: Not enough to change-the policy on endorsements. Proxmire, Doyle, and others encouraged Frank Nikolay's independent candidacy for attorney general against Sucher; the encouragement was not necessarily in personal terms, but they were glad he ran.
Tape/Side   39/1
Time   13:20
ORGANIZING COUNTY DOC UNITS
Scope and Content Note: Doyle, Carl Thompson, and Horace Wilkie did the most in this effort. About a dozen people in Madison, but especially Horace Wilkie, would pool what information they had on a particular county. The efforts were often feeble. “Very often we were reduced to getting in touch with the postmasters in the county, who would be Democratic appointees, or with the rural mail-carrier.” Their response was often very guarded, since “very often we would find that the postmaster was really a Republican in sheep's clothing and that there hadn't been any Democrat, logical Democratic candidate for the postmaster at the time that that appointment occurred; and these people might just be totally unsympathetic, even antagonistic; but more often than not, we would find a Democratic sympathizer.” Postmasters would rarely ever be willing to help out themselves, but would provide names of Democrats in their towns. Started from scratch in many counties. Would finally find someone willing to hold an initial organizational meeting of three or four people, and then one of the DOC leaders would attend the meeting. Sometimes would travel two hundred or two hundred fifty miles and find only the contact and his wife at the meeting. Initial meetings were always small. “So, we'd give'm the whole spiel about this new membership kind of an organization and what it was all about. They'd listen impassively and finally we'd browbeat somebody into agreeing to report back to us in a week or so, all looking toward a public meeting, at which we would have somebody come to speak and try to get a crowd. That was it. Just a one by one by one thing.” Eventually would come across people who were very interested in politics, but had never had the opportunity to get involved. “It was a demonstration of the virtues of a membership organization.” “I'm describing the bleakest of settings. Of course, there were many, many others where there was no party organization but there” was a nucleus ready to get to work on building a party. Got list of contacts from farm and labor organisations.
Tape/Side   39/1
Time   23:45
DOC FINANCES
Scope and Content Note: Almost never stayed over night when organizing local units. If did stay over night, stayed in a private home. Gasoline was reimbursed from the party treasury. Doyle has check stubs from first DOC check book. First check was for something like $2.58 to Pat Lucey for auto reimbursement. This kind of expense was paid largely from membership fees. A few contributions outside dues. Total receipts for 1949 were a little over $4500; $1100 from the state share of county unit dues (30 of each dues dollar). Ben Saltzstein apparently was chair of a Democratic finance committee and apparently raised money in Milwaukee, about $2400 in 1949.
Tape/Side   39/1
Time   27:55
END OF TAPE 39, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   39/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   39/2
Time   00:30
MORE ON DOC FINANCES
Scope and Content Note: No money from the Democratic National Committee. Probably the first national money did not come until 1951, as the beginning of “a very, very feeble interest of the National Democratic Party in trying to beat McCarthy in 1952.” Some small amounts from national Democratic sources did come in 1950 senate and probably congressional campaigns, going directly into the campaign funds, not through the state party. Jim Corcoran, was “a kind of a mystical figure that Bob Tehan would get in touch with every once in a while when some sum...was desparately needed.”
Tape/Side   39/2
Time   03:20
1949 FOUNDING CONVENTION OF THE DOC
Scope and Content Note: Held in Green Bay, probably as an effort to extend the presence of the DOC outside Milwaukee and Dane County. “I don't remember any opposition. I remember just tremendous exhilaration.” Other than the successes of the 1948 elections, it was the most exhilarating event of the first few years of DOC's existence. “We could see the people there that we had been searching out for that preceding year here, there, and elsewhere. And damned if they didn't show up.” Truman had won when no one thought he would. “It was all a very yeasty thing. And, gee, I mean we were all so virtuous, you know; it was kind like a Pat Boone convention.” The business was to adopt the constitution, which was a democratic instrument. Discussion of the constitution lasted from 10:30am to 1:20pm.
Tape/Side   39/2
Time   09:55
END OF TAPE 39, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   40/1
Time   00:20
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   40/1
Time   01:10
INTEREST GROUP ADVISORY COMMITTEES TO THE DOC
Scope and Content Note: Recurring argument that the economic groups from which the party sought support should have “some institutional status within the party framework” and a regularity of consultation. Never took hold, but the party did constantly reach out to labor and farm groups.
Tape/Side   40/1
Time   05:55
ROLE OF LABOR IN THE EARLY GOING (1948-1952)
Scope and Content Note: Labor more important than farm groups in terms of money, personnel for campaigns, and numbers. Wisconsin State Federation of Labor (WSFL) leadership cool toward identifying itself too closely with the Democratic Party in Wisconsin. George Haberman, president of the WSFL, “I think was really a Republican, and certainly not a Democrat, and certainly not an enthusiast for the efforts that were being made to change the direction and increase the power of the Democrats in Wisconsin.” There were working relationships with leaders of various WSFL-affiliated groups--Jake Friedrick, for example. “The real active association between the Democratic Party and the labor movement was on the CIO side, and specifically and particularly the UAW (United Auto Workers) but also to some extent the Steelworkers.” Some Machinist leadership (WSFL) was helpful. “There was just no such thing as a Democratic-Farmer-Labor coalition that was in place....” “Labor people just did not decide during those years that their interests lay in a close, active commitment and working relationship with the Democrats as contrasted with the Republicans. They kept their distance and they bargained politically with the people who were in power, whoever they were, Republicans or Democrats.” In Kenosha and Racine, however, it seemed that at least half of the DOC activists were labor people. Harvey Kitzman, UAW regional director, “was an all-out Democrat and a very, very able, good person.”
Tape/Side   40/1
Time   14:15
ROLE OF FARMER GROUPS IN THE EARLY DOC (1948-1952)
Scope and Content Note: Bob Lewis “was the key to it. He was the key to educating somebody like me about the farm organizations and who was who.” Carl Thompson, Miles McMillin, and Gaylord Nelson had wide acquaintanceships with “the farm people and the co-op people.” Floyd Wheeler was an important link with the REA. Many farm co-op leaders had Progressive backgrounds, thus providing a natural link to Carl Thompson.
Tape/Side   40/1
Time   16:40
1950s EFFORTS TO RECAST THE WISCONSIN DEMOCRATIC PARTY ALONG THE LINES OF MINNESOTA'S DEMOCRATIC-FARMER-LABOR PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Philleo Nash (party chair 1955-1957) “did have that kind of a vision.” Nash was close to labor people; had worked at it. Nothing came of it.
Tape/Side   40/1
Time   18:10
DEMOCRATIC VICTORY IN 1958 CHANGED THE PARTY'S RELATIONSHIP TO LABOR, FARM AND CO-OP GROUPS
Scope and Content Note: “Definitely changed it in terms of the status of the Democratic Party in Wisconsin in the eyes of labor groups, farm groups, and co-op groups and so forth. We were no longer viewed as some people who were struggling to go somewhere in a general direction that coincided with labor's goals or the farm co-ops' goals. We, that is the Democratic Party in Wisconsin, was a power.” Gaylord Nelson, elected governor in 1958, had had close ties to labor, having been a law partner with well-known labor lawyer John Lawton.
Tape/Side   40/1
Time   20:45
SELECTION OF THE DOC'S NAME
Scope and Content Note: Some concern in 1949 at the first convention whether the word “Organizing” implied that this organization was transitory, that it was a prelude to something else. However, since organizing was the number one priority, it was decided to leave the name as it was originally conceived at the May 1948 Fond du Lac meeting and change it to a more permanent sounding name sometime later. No one entertained the notion that the “OC” of DOC would have some appeal within the labor movement because of the “OC” used by the CIO when it was first getting going. Also, “we newcomers felt that we had to be very respectful of the statutory organization and not come charging in and taking a title like 'the Democratic Party of Wisconsin.'”
Tape/Side   40/1
Time   26:25
CO-EXISTENCE OF THE STATUTORY ORGANIZATION AND THE DOC CAUSED SOME PROBLEMS
Scope and Content Note: DOC had no recognition at all from the national party at the time of the 1952 Democratic National Convention. Credentials and everything went to the statutory organisation. “We newcomers showed some admirable restraint.” Sometime in the mid-1950s the Democratic National Committee came to recognize the DOC as the Democratic Party in Wisconsin. “The transition occurred naturally then.”
Tape/Side   40/1
Time   28:30
END OF TAPE 40, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   40/2
Time   29:50
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   40/2
Time   30:30
DOC ROLE IN SELECTION OF NATIONAL COMMITTEEMAN AND NATIONAL COMMITTEEWOMAN
Scope and Content Note: Doyle cannot remember how it worked, but expects the statutory committee had the authority to make these selections in the late 1940s and early 1950s. “As early as November of 1949, there were no differences of opinion, no differences in view between the people who occupied the significant offices in the statutory party and the people who were in the DOC.”
Tape/Side   40/2
Time   33:25
HANDLING OF PATRONAGE IN THE EARLY YEARS OF THE DOC
Scope and Content Note: Bob Tehan handled patronage “right up to the moment that he could no longer do so.” National Committeeman and Committeewoman “would have continued to administer that.” The new people had a consensus that patronage would not be used “as an instrument for developing party strength.” There were negative aspects of involving the DOC too heavily in the patronage business, which consisted mainly of rural mailcarrier positions, because selection of one person for the post would no doubt result in the bad feelings of all the other job aspirants. Doyle does not recall the DOC's patronage committee set up in late 1951. Suspects such a committee might have been formed to make sure patronage jobs were not “dissipated on non-Democrats.”
Tape/Side   40/2
Time   39:55
RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN MILWAUKEE COUNTY DOC AND THE STATE DOC
Scope and Content Note: Milwaukee was different in that there had been a Democratic Party in existence there for years. There was in existence a network of people. “Among those people who had been active in that kind of a relatively loose organizational kind of a thing among the Democrats in Milwaukee, among those people I remember that I had the sense that they considered that it was sort of a big bore, all this cheerleading and pep rally stuff and all that that we were injecting into this to have this big mass organization.” Adding membership seemed unimportant to them. “The whole membership thing never really took hold, except in the silkstocking districts where, lets say along the north shore and so on, where active units got organized.” In those areas, there was a feeling that they were part of a big, statewide push to develop the party.
Tape/Side   40/2
Time   46:05
AFTER SUCCESSFULLY DEVELOPING THE DOC, DOYLE QUESTIONED WHAT IT WAS
Scope and Content Note: There came a point where the DOC had been successful in building membership, bringing forth good leaders, “and all in all it was something very much to be admired, but what was it? It was kind of like a lodge, like the Eagles or the Elks or the Moose or something. It had its internal life...but connecting it to getting more votes than the Republicans in the elections...that connection was not very clear.” Even before electoral success, when candidates began to build their own organizations and people came to look to those organisations rather than the party, “it would be very difficult to say that the DOC...had any direct impact on anything.”
Tape/Side   40/2
Time   50:40
WITH ELECTORAL SUCCESS THE PARTY BECAME LESS IMPORTANT
Scope and Content Note: “The organization of a group of people in Wisconsin after the War within the Democratic Party to try to make it go; I think it was a short-term phenomenon and that's probably the way it was destined to be and there's nothing wrong with it.”
Tape/Side   40/2
Time   53:10
THE DEMOCRACY OF THE DOC
Scope and Content Note: “Process, fairness in process, fairness in the way in which decisions are made and the participation in decisions and so on, is not only almost as important as the subsequent decisions that emerge from it, but probably does shape the decisions.”
Tape/Side   40/2
Time   56:00
WHY THE FOUNDERS OF THE DOC OPTED FOR A MASS MEMBERSHIP ORGANIZATION
Scope and Content Note: It just seemed to be a logical way to generate interest in the party and to capture former Progressives.
Tape/Side   40/2
Time   58:15
END OF TAPE 40, SIDE 2
Audio   1030A/41-43
1985 January 30
Note: Access online.
Tape/Side   41/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   41/1
Time   00:40
MORE ON THE DEMOCRACY OF THE DOC
Scope and Content Note: The model of a membership organization down to the county level naturally led to a participatory organization. Amongst the Madison activists “it was pretty much a consensus thing all along.” There was a group of people who were in continual touch with one another and no one tried to take over. This served as a model that was reflected throughout the organization.
Tape/Side   41/1
Time   04:10
1950 DEMOCRATIC SENATE PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Surprising that four people would be interested in the office so soon in the DOC's life. “The biggest thing, I think, to explain that was Truman's victory. It's really difficult to exaggerate the impact of the 1948 victory of Truman's.” Also, Fairchild's election and Thompson's good showing in 1948. There was a feeling that one might actually win. Also, “Wiley was a kind of an inviting target. In our eyes at least he was kind of a bumbling guy and looked as though he might be vulnerable. We under-estimated him considerably both in terms of his political strength and in terms of his political savvy.”
Tape/Side   41/1
Time   06:50
DAN HOAN AND THE 1950 SENATE PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: A special case. “From about 1940 or so on, as I recall it, Dan was doing what we were later doing in trying to develop the Democratic Party.” Ambitious and had previously been very successful.
Tape/Side   41/1
Time   07:40
WILLIAM SANDERSON AND THE 1950 SENATE PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: “An interesting manifestation of the developing activism on the farm side and on the co-op side.”
Tape/Side   41/1
Time   08:05
TOM FAIRCHILD AND THE 1950 SENATE PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Ambitious. Incumbent attorney general, which “looked like a good springing off place. You know, it was a time when just about anybody could just up and run for governor. I did in 1954.”
Tape/Side   41/1
Time   08:50
MORE ON WILLIAM SANDERSON
Scope and Content Note: Merlin Hull was the tolerant one in this setting, since Hull, a progressive Republican, allowed his secretary to run on the Democratic ticket. Hull “I am sure...was sympathetic to what we were doing. And he probably figured that we didn't represent a real threat to him.”
Tape/Side   41/1
Time   10:30
DOYLE'S ELECTION AS CHAIR OF THE DOC
Scope and Content Note: Was opposed by George Molinaro, who had labor support. “It wasn't a real big deal.” Doyle decided to run, only shortly before the convention, “for reasons that had to do with the McCarthy election, and the fact that I was not going to be a candidate in '52.” Molinaro probably decided to run only a week before the convention. “So I don't think it would do to read too much into that competition, the fact that that competition occurred, although it did represent some kind of an assertion by labor it wanted one of its own, it wanted a big voice in the party, bigger voice than it had.” “I never was a guy that the labor people went for in a big way. I was too much of an egghead or something.” Probably won by a two to one margin, which reflected the fact that Doyle probably knew everyone at the convention while Molinaro had a much narrower base.
Tape/Side   41/1
Time   15:25
DOYLE'S GOALS AS CHAIR OF DOC
Scope and Content Note: Wanted to accomplish “more of the same. We had the sense that we were really getting somewhere.” Also wanted a voice in the 1952 McCarthy campaign.
Tape/Side   41/1
Time   16:50
JOE McCARTHY'S IMPACT ON THE WISCONSIN DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: His defeat in 1952 became an obsession with Wisconsin Democrats.
Tape/Side   41/1
Time   21:15
JOCKEYING FOR THE 1952 DEMOCRATIC SENATORIAL NOMINATION
Scope and Content Note: Doyle and many others were ambitious and wanted to be the candidate to defeat McCarthy. “In any kind of a developed political setting, such as Wisconsin today, that would have been just ludicrous that I would think that I might be the person who would run and be elected to the Senate. But in those days, anybody who wanted to, would just pop in and do it. But we were mindful that it should be done right, that we should have a strong candidate, that we should try to get some unity early and start developing some unknown person over a long period of time so that by the fall of 1952 there'd be some well-recognized person there opposing McCarthy.” In addition to Doyle, Gaylord Nelson, Henry Reuss, Tom Fairchild and others were interested in being that person. Doyle and Nelson were close friends and decided not to run against each other in the primary. They decided in the summer of 1951 on arbitration as a means of deciding which one was to be the candidate. Doyle picked Morris Rubin as his “champion,” Nelson picked Miles McMillin, and those two picked Bob Lewis as the third party. “And the answer was Gaylord.” Henry Reuss had been privately indicating he would probably be a candidate. Doyle and Nelson thought Reuss should subject himself to the same type of arbitration procedure that they had engaged in. Meanwhile, Fairchild, who some thought would be the most attractive candidate, was leaning toward not running. The Reuss-Nelson arbitration was set up to a point, then Reuss backed out of the arbitration and announced his candidacy. Nelson then dropped his interest, not wanting to run against Reuss in the primary. “It was strictly a unilateral thing. Reuss just decided to do it and he did it. The rest of us, including me and including Gaylord who had all thought we were being just princes about the whole thing, were ticked off about that and weren't at all sure that Henry was the best candidate.” Very resistant to the idea that the whole thing should be settled “just by Henry's assertion of his candidacy.” Reuss started campaigning, but people around the state were reluctant to announce support for him. No one wanted to commit themselves in case a stronger candidate should appear.
Tape/Side   41/1
Time   27:30
FUNDRAISING FOR THE SENATORIAL CAMPAIGN, 1952
Scope and Content Note: Doyle had connections in the East “with potential contributors to the anti-McCarthy campaign. That became pretty much my specialty during that whole period up to November.” Reuss, meanwhile, was going East to raise money, presenting himself as the candidate. People would then check back with Doyle, as party chair.
Tape/Side   41/1
Time   28:25
END OF TAPE 41, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   41/2
Time   29:55
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   41/2
Time   30:35
MORE ON FUNDRAISING IN THE EAST FOR THE 1952 SENATORIAL CAMPAIGN AGAINST McCARTHY
Scope and Content Note: “It was a very delicate time” because it was possible that Reuss would be the candidate, yet Doyle did not want to shut out other potential candidates by telling contributors that Reuss was the only candidate.
Tape/Side   41/2
Time   32:20
LEN SCHMITT'S CANDIDACY IN THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY AGAINST McCARTHY
Scope and Content Note: Former Progressive; Merrill lawyer. “That introduced a whole new dimension to the problems about organizing to beat McCarthy.”
Tape/Side   41/2
Time   33:15
TOM FAIRCHILD'S VACILLATION ON HIS CANDIDACY
Scope and Content Note: Decided about June that he would not run. This left little time for any other candidate to arise. Doyle and everyone else pretty much decided that “Henry should be it.” Doyle was on a trip East when someone called to say Fairchild would run. This made it awkward for Doyle who was trying to convince people in the East that the proper way to defeat McCarthy was in the Democratic party, not the Republican primary, and that the party had settled on Henry Reuss. Doyle returned to Wisconsin, landing in Milwaukee where Fairchild met his plane. “He was chagrined about the fact that he had thought and spoken one way and then changed his mind. But people had been after him and after him. They really had.” “It was a terrific scramble to get enough signatures for Tom to get him on the ballot,” his decision came so close to the filing deadline.
Tape/Side   41/2
Time   36:00
REUSS-FAIRCHILD PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: “A very, very stout contest.”
Tape/Side   41/2
Time   36:10
PROPONENTS OF THE FAIRCHILD CANDIDACY
Scope and Content Note: “A whole lot of us had thought for quite a while that if it was just a question 'would Tom or Henry be the stronger candidate,' it would be Tom because of his statewide stature.” Many people around the state had that view. Doyle does not know what or who finally caused Fairchild to run.
Tape/Side   41/2
Time   37:30
THE POTENTIAL OF WALTER KOHLER RUNNING AGAINST McCARTHY IN THE PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: The Milwaukee Journal claimed that Doyle supported this as the best means of defeating McCarthy. Doyle does not recall this, but suspects he would never have endorsed Kohler because “I was one of those who thought that developing the Democratic Party in Wisconsin over a period of years, of which 1952 was just one, was an objective and a focus that should not be dissipated in an effort to beat McCarthy.”
Tape/Side   41/2
Time   39:15
THE POTENTIAL OF BOB LA FOLLETTE RUNNING AGAINST MCCARTHY
Scope and Content Note: On that point Doyle deviated somewhat from his thoughts about not sacrificing the party in an effort to defeat McCarthy. “We all thought the best way to beat McCarthy would be for Bob to run against McCarthy in the Republican primary. And if Bob would do that, we would just lay off. It would be an interruption in our effort to build the Democratic Party.” Doyle and others approached Bob La Follette to run as a Democrat against McCarthy, but they did not feel he actually would run as a Democrat. “He was friendly, but he was cool to the idea right from the word 'go.' As I recall, he told us very promptly--it would be within a couple of days or so--'absolutely not.'”
Tape/Side   41/2
Time   41:30
DOYLE'S EASTERN FUNDRAISING EFFORTS
Scope and Content Note: Two principle avenues--Americans for Democratic Action and Maurice Rosenblatt's National Committee for an Effective Congress. People Doyle knew in these organisations would connect him with wealthy liberals. “Of course one thing would lead to another and I'd be given leads by one person to another person. So I corresponded, I telephoned, I went around to see people.” There was a pretty good willingness to contribute significant amounts of money--$500 or $1000--and no resentment to speak off amongst eastern Democratic candidates from whom this anti-McCarthy campaign might be taking money. “But they were all hung up by two things: One, despair; nobody could beat McCarthy.... And the other one was that we were in such disarray, we in Wisconsin.” Despite all this, the fundraising went well, especially in comparison to the 1948 and 1950 Democratic campaigns in Wisconsin.
Tape/Side   41/2
Time   50:00
ROLE OF THE MILWAUKEE JOURNAL IN THE ANTI-McCARTHY CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: Ed Bayley, a political reporter for the Journal at the time and now Dean of the School of Journalism at the University of California-Berkeley, “knew us real well, and so we would talk with him a lot. And he was terrifically anti-McCarthy. But the Journal, at a certain point, decided that it was really going to go after McCarthy. And they did. I mean, you wouldn't believe it as you read the staid Journal in recent years. It was a Cap Times type of campaign against McCarthy, and I'm sure far more influential.” When people contacted Doyle with campaign ammunition to use against McCarthy, he would simply refer them to the Journal.
Tape/Side   41/2
Time   52:30
CAMPAIGN STRATEGY IN THE 1952 SENATORIAL CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: “I'm afraid it never really settled down very clearly. Tom Fairchild would have been just incapable of having one of these slashing personal anti-McCarthy campaigns, and he didn't. So, to the extent that he set the tone of his own campaign, it would have been one where he just let the anti-McCarthyism just develop in the national news context and so on, but locally just do his thing and try to build on the strength that we'd been developing on these party efforts. And that was my view also about how the campaign should go.” Would not have been useful to spend what little time and money was available to tell people McCarthy was bad on civil liberties. “It would be about like letting people know that Jessie Helms is an extreme rightwinger.”
Tape/Side   41/2
Time   55:00
“WAR TO THE DEATH,” 1952 ELECTION POST-MORTEM
Scope and Content Note: Doyle's widely quoted reaction to McCarthy's victory. “I certainly was giving expression to the great bulk of the anti-McCarthy voters in Wisconsin, not just the people in the Democratic Party.... It was an accurate statement of the way I felt about it.”
Tape/Side   41/2
Time   57:05
DISCUSSION ABOUT MAKING DOYLE CHAIR OF THE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE AFTER ADLAI STEVENSON'S NOMINATION IN 1952
Scope and Content Note: Stevenson wanted to offer Doyle the chairmanship, but Doyle was off fishing with his family and could not be found. “And I guess Stevenson's enthusiasm for me was not so intense that he wanted to wait very long. I'm happy I never received that call; by the way.”
Tape/Side   41/2
Time   58:20
END OF TAPE 41, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   42/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   42/1
Time   00:50
DOC HIRING OF PAT LUCEY AS AN ORGANIZER IN 1951
Scope and Content Note: Was to be paid by funds raised outside the state because the party was so poor. Especially interested in developing county and legislative slates. “As for the selection of Pat, as best I can recall, there was no disagreement about choosing him. It was just a great stroke of good luck from the party's point of view that Pat was willing.” Lucey had already demonstrated his effectiveness in organization and administration. “Undoubtedly we were looking ahead to the fact that it was the McCarthy year, the McCarthy election year, and that there would be nationwide interest in the election and that there was a very real potential for a fair amount of money to be raised around the country outside Wisconsin for the campaign.”
Tape/Side   42/1
Time   05:35
DOC FINANCES VIS-A-VIS THE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE (DNC)
Scope and Content Note: Doyle does not recall, but suspects fundraising events with speakers produced by the DNC probably included arrangements whereby the DNC would get part of the proceeds. DNC would contribute to senate and congressional campaigns. State organizations always try to “sell” the national organization on the importance of particular election contests in the hopes of receiving campaign money from the national organization. “We tried to sell the Democratic National Committee on the whole idea that the Democratic Party in Wisconsin could become as effective and as successful at the polls in the same way that the Democratic Party in Minnesota had become successful...and that it was important to the national party that the two states be successful Democratic states.”
Tape/Side   42/1
Time   10:50
RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE PARTY AND DEMOCRATIC LEGISLATORS IN THE 1950s
Scope and Content Note: “There was a mixed relationship.” The new legislators were “very much at the forefront of the party's affairs.” Those in the traditional and secure Democratic seats along the lake shore “went their own way;” accepted the party platform only to the extent that they agreed with it. Only way around this is a parliamentary system, “an idea that appeals to me more and more as time passes.”
Tape/Side   42/1
Time   15:05
DISCUSSION OF LETTER DOYLE WROTE LELAND McPARLAND IN LATE 1952
Scope and Content Note: Letter shows that there existed a tension between Democratic legislators and the party. One issue involved in the letter may have dealt with concerns over accepting dinners and other things from lobbyists. [The original of the letter under discussion is in the State Historical Society's Democratic Party of Wisconsin collection.]
Tape/Side   42/1
Time   19:20
“JOE MUST GO” MOVEMENT
Scope and Content Note: A big bone of contention. Doyle opposed the effort because it could not succeed; the number of signatures required in the limited time allowed made success virtually impossible. To try and fail “was ill-advised.” The effort, to Doyle's surprise, was “spectacularly successful” in terms of the number of people who got involved in it and the number of signatures obtained, but the real number of signatures is unknown because the petitions were never filed and were never opened to any objective outsider. “I was pretty much a Democratic Party organization type vis-a-vis that whole effort.” The party kept its distance from the “Joe Must Go” movement, but some party leaders did get involved. Some felt so strongly, they got involved; some thought it was politic to get involved. Even some, who felt it was not a good idea, felt the party should get involved and help make it successful rather than to sit on the sidelines with the appearance of being unsympathetic. “I think that my position wasn't of tremendous significance in the whole thing; but, to the extent it had a significance, I think I probably suffered a little from the position I took because it was kind of a...grudging party line, party boss kind of attitude.”
Tape/Side   42/1
Time   24:30
DOC FACTIONALISM
Scope and Content Note: “It was real.” “Quite a bit of that is just built into any kind of a political organization.” An outgrowth of ambition. “I think it is healthy.” Regretted the Madison-Milwaukee split at the time. Many Milwaukee activists, however, had no feeling that the Madison people were discriminating against them.
Tape/Side   42/1
Time   28:30
END OF TAPE 42, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   42/2
Time   29:45
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   42/2
Time   30:30
MORE ON DOC FACTIONALISM: MILWAUKEE vs. MADISON
Scope and Content Note: Milwaukee antagonism toward Madison was partly a product of the fact that there had been successful Democratic activity in Milwaukee for several years “and I think there was a feeling that that wasn't sufficiently recognised by the newcomers on the scene. And I think it is probably accurate to say that it wasn't sufficiently recognised by the newcomers.” Also, a feeling that there was not sufficient recognition of the importance of Milwaukee and the lake shore in general in getting out votes on election day. The current antagonism between Milwaukee Mayor Henry Maier and Democratic Governor Tony Earl is not a new phenomenon. Doyle does not see the Reuss-Fairchild primary in 1952 as a Milwaukee-Madison split. “I don't think Henry was ever of a mind that the Madison ring in some way or the other was doing him dirt.” Madison people were more favorable to Fairchild's candidacy. Central city and southside Democrats in Milwaukee were a little more conservative than most Wisconsin Democrats; northsiders tended not to feel antagonisms against outstate or Madison and tended to be more liberal than those in the city.
Tape/Side   42/2
Time   39:05
ABSENCE OF ISSUES, 1948-1958, BY WHICH TO JUDGE POLITICAL IDEOLOGIES
Scope and Content Note: The environment was not an important issue, nor was consumerism. Everyone favored a strong military presence.
Tape/Side   42/2
Time   41:50
DOYLE'S 1954 GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDACY
Scope and Content Note: “I was ambitious. I wanted to be governor.” “It appeared to be a possibility in 1954.” Aware of the prodigious amount of campaigning Bill Proxmire had done in 1952, but Doyle discounted it because he had been defeated so badly. In 1952 Proxmire was not just filling out the ticket, as Bob Kastenmeier was in 1958. Proxmire wanted to run; may have made the decision as early as 1950. Doyle thought he would win the primary almost right up to the day of the election. “It was not wildly irrational. I had considerably more party people supporting me than Bill.” Also thought his Irish Catholic background would help him in Milwaukee. Did well in Madison and some places outstate, “but, I really, as I recall, lost all over the place.”
Tape/Side   42/2
Time   48:40
CO-CHAIRMANSHIP OF THE AMERICANS FOR DEMOCRATIC ACTION (ADA), 1953-1954
Scope and Content Note: The other co-chair was Arthur Schlesinger Jr. Not much work involved. Required some public statements and public appearances on behalf of the ADA's positions. Doyle was very close to ADA's most active founders--Jimmy Wexler, Joe Rauh, Jim Loeb, Arthur Schlesinger. The McCarthy election focused attention on Wisconsin and McCarthy's victory “had something to do with the idea that I should have a prominent--and I mean prominent superficially--prominent role in the organization.” Schelsinger did not want to be chair alone; if he had that would have been satisfactory to everyone. ADA was largely an eastern organization at this time. Co-chair was an elective position, but the kind where things are all arranged in advance.
Tape/Side   42/2
Time   52:45
DOYLE BIOGRAPHY, 1954-1960
Scope and Content Note: Concentrated on building his law practice, although he did keep politically active. Ran for circuit court judge and was defeated by former Progressive Norris Maloney. “I thought I was going to win that one too.” Except for that contest, was much less involved in DOC organizational work, although he was fairly active in campaign fundraising.
Tape/Side   42/2
Time   55:05
WISCONSIN SALES TAX ISSUE
Scope and Content Note: Doyle was a vice-chair of Governor Nelson's Blue Ribbon Tax Committee, which was chaired by Miller Upton, president of Beloit College. “A very significant interlude.” “I was becoming more conservative.... It was beginning to sink in to me...that ...when liberals won public office, particularly...the governorship...the more real and earnest life became about dealing with the real world, and dealing with money, both revenue and so on.” “The sales tax was possibly the biggest boogie man that you could imagine among the progressives and among liberal Democrats and with labor and so on, as well it might be just sitting there all by itself. It's a regressive, tough, rough tax. It's a huge yielding tax....”
Tape/Side   42/2
Time   58:15
END OF TAPE 42, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   43/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   43/1
Time   01:00
MORE ON THE SALES TAX
Scope and Content Note: The sales tax is a bad tax and the progressive income tax is a good tax. “But the problem of how a state is to be governed in terms of its revenue structure in a federal system in competition with other states for business and industry and so on is a real problem. The business people of the state have been saying that for years. The Republicans have been saying it for years.” As state government grew, with local aids and the like, it was hitting a point where the income tax, as the main source of revenue, was getting overloaded, especially in comparison to other states which were competing with Wisconsin for business and industry. Since Nelson had been in the legislature for ten years before his election as governor, probably this reality was developing within his mind slowly over that time. Thus, he was prepared to take some risk in moving toward a sales tax. By the time Doyle was appointed to the Blue Ribbon committee, he had come to the conclusion that “the idea of some kind of a sales tax should be entertained.” While Gaylord Nelson and Doyle pretty much shared the same view, Doyle, as a mamber of the committee, was in a better position to voice his opinion. The closer Nelson's 1960 re-election bid got, the riskier the whole situation became. Meanwhile, conservatives were pushing to have the committee openly declare in favor of a sales tax. Doyle felt the committee, which had a broad mandate, should finish its work before making any recommendations. Doyle's argument was upheld and the committee did not take a position on the sales tax prior to the 1960 election. After his reelection, Nelson felt much freer to take an open position in favor of a small sales tax, and eventually the sales tax was instituted. In 1962 John Reynolds ran for governor on an anti-sales tax platform. While often proposed in the legislature during the 1950s, the sales tax never got anywhere then because the Republicans and everyone else were afraid of the issue.
Tape/Side   43/1
Time   11:40
DOYLE'S ROLE AS NATIONAL DIRECTOR OF ADLAI STEVENSON'S 1960 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: “I was nutty about Stevenson right from the word 'go' and remain so today.” It seemed after his big defeats in 1952 and 1956 that he was through. Stevenson was drafted in 1952 and really did not want to run. He saw that 1952 would be a defeat. He really wanted to run in 1956 and then be the logical candidate in 1960, not having two defeats under his belt. Going into 1959, no Democrat had emerged to become the dominant candidate. It began to look as though the Democrats might go all the way to the convention without a dominant candidate. Doyle and others began to think it would be good to float the idea of Stevenson and to develop that idea. Doyle did not think Stevenson should seek the nomination; he would probably lose in the primaries. Doyle found that there was a lot of good feeling and almost no ill feeling toward Stevenson. Stevenson, himself, would never, even in very private conversations, commit toward an open candidacy, no matter what developed. Doyle and a few others throughout the country started initiating things, writing letters, and the like. Senator Mike Monroney of Oklahoma, Senator John Carroll of Colorado, Eleanor Roosevelt, Herbert Lehman, George Ball and a few others of stature came out for Stevenson. Petitions for Stevenson were signed throughout the country. In the midst of this these people decided, around early May 1960, that some kind of “draft Stevenson” organization should be formed and Doyle was named executive secretary of that organization. Stevenson continued to be very evasive. Doyle had no regular contact with Stevenson, but it became clear that Stevenson was “willing.” He would make public statements and show up in needed places, but he would not announce; “thus creating very, very grave tensions between himself and Kennedy.”
Tape/Side   43/1
Time   24:30
1960 DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL CONVENTION
Scope and Content Note: Kennedy people wanted to come out of the convention with the nomination but also with the good will of as many major politicians as possible. Hence, their strategy was to not get the nomination on the first ballot, but rather let each delegation vote on the first ballot the way it was committed, leaning, etc., thus keeping everyone happy; and then win on the second ballot. The orchestrated Stevenson demonstrations and the seeming groundswell for Stevenson forced the Kennedy people to change their strategy and win on the first ballot, since the Stevenson momentum might overtake them on the second ballot. “The Kennedy people decided they better get it fast and they shifted gears not long before the convention. When they shifted gears and they went back to these people that they were going to indulge and started putting the heat on them, there was trouble and that added to the dislike--that's a mild word for it--that the Kennedy people began to entertain toward the Stevenson people....” Doyle and the Stevenson people felt if Kennedy could not win on the first ballot, Stevenson had a good chance; at least if Kennedy could not win the nomination, Stevenson would be the logical draftee.
Tape/Side   43/1
Time   27:50
END OF TAPE 43, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   43/2
Time   29:15
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   43/2
Time   30:05
KENNEDY-HUMPHREY PRIMARY BATTLE IN 1960 “WAS A BIG, BIG BLOODLETTING, TERRIBLY DIFFICULT THING FOR WISCONSIN DEMOCRATS”
Scope and Content Note: If neither had been elected president, it would have been a bad split and that would have been the end of it. However, because Kennedy won, the split between those who were pro-Kennedy and those who were anti-Kennedy during the primary, persisted through his presidency.
Tape/Side   43/2
Time   33:45
POLITICAL IMPLICATIONS OF DOYLE'S APPOINTMENT AS FEDERAL JUDGE
Scope and Content Note: Incumbent U.S. District Judge, Patrick Stone, died in January 1963. Many people, including Doyle, were interested in replacing Stone. The Kennedy brothers made it clear that they would not favor Doyle's appointment. In the fall of 1963 President Kennedy appointed David Rabinovitz, a Kennedy supporter in 1960. Congress adjourned before confirming the Rabinovitz appointment. Kennedy was assassinated, but President Lyndon Johnson reappointed Rabinovitz on an interim basis, pending reconvening of Congress. The Senate, however, reconvened and adjourned without confirming Rabinovitz, thereby ending Rabinovitz's appointment. This was about the same time as John Reynolds' unsuccessful effort to win re-election as Wisconsin governor; after his defeat, he expressed interest in the judgeship. It became a question of either Doyle or Reynolds. Doyle was appointed in May 1965 and Reynolds was appointed to a judgeship in Milwaukee in the fall of 1965.
Tape/Side   43/2
Time   40:45
RETROSPECTIVE ASSESSMENT OF THE WISCONSIN DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Has “very well” lived up to Doyle's expectations. “What we hoped to achieve, we did achieve.” The Democratic Party, as a liberal party, did become the alternative to the Republican Party in Wisconsin.
Tape/Side   43/2
Time   42:45
PARTY LEADERS WHO WERE NOT AROUND IN 1948 SHOULD ALSO BE GIVEN CREDIT
Scope and Content Note: “I treasure that time and I treasure the associations of that time..., but I think it is kind of a curious thing on the part of all of us that there's a fairly intense interest about the beginnings of things and about the ends of things, but there's a great big long middle in there that just doesn't quite have the sex appeal that beginnings and ends do. And I think...it results in a little distortion.” Those who have done their share for the party in the intervening years should be admired as much as those who happened to have been in on the beginning. “I'm afraid that perhaps some of us who were involved in this particular effort at the time right after World War II in Wisconsin, I'm afraid that some of us, including me, sometimes succumb to the idea that we created something and that we have some kind of entitlement to sit in judgement about Tony Earl or Tom Loftus, a legislative leader, or somebody else who is struggling with today; and I try hard to guard against that.”
Tape/Side   43/2
Time   46:50
ROLE OF WOMEN IN THE DOC
Scope and Content Note: “By comparison with my own attitudes today and the attitudes of many, many people today, the way in which that whole things was done in 1948 to '57 was pretty awful. The men just asserted themselves, took it on themselves to be the bosses of the whole operation.... Generally speaking it was all just kind of taken for granted that the women would be doing the hard work and the men would be the ones who would be putting themselves forward. That was absolutely unconscious and therefore, I think, a very striking demonstration of how pervasive and deep sexism is in our society, and causes me to doubt very much whether, with respect to sexism or racism or many other things, I can have any confidence in my attitudes today when I realize how much they have changed on that subject.”
Tape/Side   43/2
Time   49:50
DOC FOUNDERS NEVER HAD ANY DOUBT BUT WHAT GOVERNMENT WAS THE ANSWER
Scope and Content Note: Today, almost no one, even Democrats, will stand up and say government is the solution to the country's problems. “Not that we should have an all-pervasive government, but that the way in which to address social and economic problems was through the instrument of government and that, if people of our point of view won control of legislatures, congresses, executive offices in the state and nation and so on, we would simply figure out what's the best thing to do about this, that, and the other thing.” Doyle has modified, but not abandoned that point of view. Realizes there are limits to what can be accomplished, at least in the short run, through governmental action.
Tape/Side   43/2
Time   52:30
CONCERNED THAT HE MAY NOT HAVE MENTIONED EVERYONE IN THIS INTERVIEW WHO PLAYED A SIGNIFICANT ROLE, ALTHOUGH HE THINKS HE HAS MENTIONED ALL THOSE WHO WERE THE MOST INSTRUMENTAL IN ORGANIZING THE DOC
Scope and Content Note: Carl Thompson and Horace Wilkie, perhaps most important in the very beginning. “Pat Lucey...right from the day that he walked on the scene in terms of the state effort was the person who really had the biggest impact, lasting impact....”
Tape/Side   43/2
Time   55:40
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/44-45
Subseries: John Lawton, 1985 February 18
Note: Access online.
Tape/Side   44/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   44/1
Time   00:30
BIOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Born in Glasgow, Montana, 1917. Family originally from Kickapoo Valley area of Wisconsin. Parents both teachers. Father became county superintendent of schools in Vernon County, Wisconsin, in 1930. John attended three years high school in Hillsboro and graduated from Viroqua high school. Went to University of Wisconsin-Madison; got law degree in 1942. Began practicing law with Lyle Beggs, a progressive Republican assemblyman.
Tape/Side   44/1
Time   02:45
WISCONSIN POLITICS DURING THE 1930s
Scope and Content Note: Democrats unprepared for power when swept into the governorship and control of the assembly in 1932. Had merely filled up the ticket, “and they had some outrageous candidates, and were reactionary.” Lawton was active in the Young Progressives at the University; deeply involved in the 1936, 1938 and 1940 campaigns.
Tape/Side   44/1
Time   05:35
VERY ACTIVE IN ORLAND LOOMIS GUBERNATORIAL CAMPAIGN, 1942
Scope and Content Note: “Matter of fact, all of Loomis' nomination papers were mailed out of my apartment down on State Street.... And of course, with the death of Loomis, that was really the end of the Progressive Party.”
Tape/Side   44/1
Time   06:30
DISSOLUTION OF THE PROGRESSIVE PARTY IN 1946
Scope and Content Note: “The young folks were really split up at that stage.” Gaylord Nelson and one group were determined to help La Follette; they went into the Republican Party. Bob Lewis, later executive secretary of the Farmers' Union, and another group wanted to go into the Democratic Party. Lawton kept a low profile at the time because he had a patronage job working for the Dane County district attorney, Norris Maloney, who intended to follow La Follette back into the Republican Party. Gaylord Nelson ran for the legislature in Polk County on the Republican ticket, “and, I think, luckily was defeated by a very narrow margin.”
Tape/Side   44/1
Time   09:50
INITIAL INVOLVEMENT WITH THE AMERICAN FEDERATION OF STATE, COUNTY, AND MUNICIPAL EMPLOYEES (AFSCME)
Scope and Content Note: While in the district attorney's office, a local of AFSCME was formed there and he was elected president of the local. Maloney actually encouraged his staff to join the union. When Lawton left the district attorney's office, he had connections with many unions and became the attorney for the Madison Federation of Labor and several unions in the Madison area. The Taft-Hartley Act was passed about the same time and unions were not accustomed to dealing with the kinds of legal questions this law brought forth. Local unions were advised to get lawyers and many turned to him.
Tape/Side   44/1
Time   11:40
GAYLORD NELSON JOINED LAWTON'S LAW FIRM AFTER THE 1946 ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: Both got active in Democratic politics. Recalls meetings with Bob Tehan, which were attended by himself, Nelson, Miles McMillin, Tom Fairchild and others. Lots of strategy discussion.
Tape/Side   44/1
Time   13:45
LABOR MOVEMENT HAD GONE DEMOCRAT BY 1946
Scope and Content Note: The United Auto Workers (CIO) provided Bill Dodds, a community relations man, who engaged heavily in political organizing.
Tape/Side   44/1
Time   16:10
MORE ON DISSOLUTION OF PROGRESSIVE PARTY IN 1946
Scope and Content Note: Lawton was a delegate to the last convention, but got ill from food poisoning and did not attend the session that voted on the party's future. “I suspect that I was going along with Nelson and Maloney and the others that were going to support Bob at that time.” Voted for La Follette in the 1946 primary, but for Democrat Howard McMurray in the general election.
Tape/Side   44/1
Time   17:20
LIBERAL DEMOCRATS PRIOR TO 1948
Scope and Content Note: McMurray. Jim Dillman. Bill Riley, a Democrat throughout the 1930s, with close connections to the younger Progressives, he kept trying to convince to take over the Democrats. Bob Tehan, very bright, very able, and a strong liberal.
Tape/Side   44/1
Time   18:55
NO OPPOSITION FROM OLD DEMOCRATS TO YOUNG PEOPLE'S ATTEMPTS TO LIBERALIZE THE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Some retained their legislative offices and continued to be conservative, “but I think they saw the handwriting on the wall, and I think they welcomed the progressives with open arms before it was over with.” Would put Jerry Fox in this category. Also, the Brogan family. These people seemed to be primarily of Irish extraction. There were also a lot of old-time Germans who had been Social Democrats prior to World War I, many of whom had switched to old Bob La Follette because of his position on World War I.
Tape/Side   44/1
Time   23:30
MANY OLDER PROGRESSIVES WHO WENT INTO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY FORMED A LIBERAL BLOCK IN THE LEGISLATURE WHICH WORKED WITH THE NEWLY ELECTED LIBERAL DEMOCRATS
Scope and Content Note: Charley Sykes. Arthur Padrutt. Clifford Krueger.
Tape/Side   44/1
Time   24:35
LIBERALIZATION OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY HAPPENED VERY QUICKLY
Scope and Content Note: “Sort of a wave. When La Follette was defeated, all of a sudden things started to happen.”
Tape/Side   44/1
Time   25:35
REAPPORTIONMENT
Scope and Content Note: One of the reasons the Republicans had been in control for so long was that the state had not been reapportioned for a couple decades or more. When Lawton left the district attorney's office, he, Gaylord Nelson, and Ery Bruner filed suit to see if they could force reapportionment. Hoped to force the issue by blocking an election. Got lots of publicity on the effort, but lost the law suit. The attorney general took the case, even though he was a Republican.
Tape/Side   44/1
Time   27:40
LAWTON WAS NOT AT THE FOUNDING MEETING OF THE DOC, MAY 1948
Tape/Side   44/1
Time   28:25
END OF TAPE 44, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   44/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   44/2
Time   00:30
LAWTON'S PARTICIPATION IN THE DOC WAS PERIPHERAL
Scope and Content Note: Was very busy with his labor clients. Did work within the labor movement for the DOC.
Tape/Side   44/2
Time   01:30
WAS ABLE TO SHOW UNIONS “WHERE THEIR INTERESTS WERE” BY WORKING IN THE LEGISLATIVE PROCESS
Scope and Content Note: Was able to maintain good relationships with Republican governors. Would introduce labor legislation, “and the roll calls were just dramatic evidence of our problem.”
Tape/Side   44/2
Time   02:45
POLITICALLY ACTIVE UNIONS IN THE LATE 1940s AND EARLY 1950s
Scope and Content Note: AFSCME Firefighters. Building trades were active, but in a less formal way than the others, mainly through COPE (Committee on Political Education).
Tape/Side   44/2
Time   04:55
GEORGE HABERMAN, PRESIDENT OF THE WISCONSIN STATE FEDERATION OF LABOR (WSFL)
Scope and Content Note: Lawton thinks he was a Republican. When President Truman wanted to appoint Bob Tehan a federal judge, Haberman put forth the name of a corporation lawyer. Lawton took him on at a COPE meeting and “when the vote was taken, he didn't have a vote on the floor because it was just an outrage, what he was proposing. His excuse was that we needed Bob in the State Senate. What an outrage to say to a man, you know, 'we need you at this hundred dollar a month job for the rest of your life.” Haberman never belonged to the Republican Party, but never belonged to the Democratic Party either. Because the Republicans were so dominant, Lawton does not blame Haberman “for being cautious at least.” As evidenced by the Employment Peace Act of 1939, there was an element in the Republican Party which wanted to destroy unions, and Lawton feels Haberman's hobnobbing with Republicans may have been in part “a way of protecting his clientele.” Also, Walter Kohler, as governor, was pretty easy for labor to get along with; Lawton and Kohler were pretty good friends. Kohler appointed Lawton to several committees. WSFL secretary-treasurer George Hall was less conservative than Haberman.
Tape/Side   44/2
Time   11:00
LABOR OFTEN EXPECED TOO MUCH OF DEMOCRATS IT HELPED ELECT
Scope and Content Note: Haberman had a nasty feud with Governor Reynolds' staff, for example.
Tape/Side   44/2
Time   12:25
LABOR STARTED CONTRIBUTING SIGNIFICANT AMOUNTS OF MONEY TO DEMOCRATS IN THE EARLY 1960s
Tape/Side   44/2
Time   13:50
ORGANIZING LOCAL DOC UNITS
Scope and Content Note: Lawton's wife was active in this effort, especially in Dane County and surrounding areas, but he “did not get involved in that at all.” His involvement was more through Gaylord Nelson and with his client unions.
Tape/Side   44/2
Time   15:00
TENSIONS WITHIN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Nothing unusual. A normal thing within most any organization in Wisconsin. “A normal human relationship. For example, Madison and Milwaukee always have outstate people jealous of them to some extent--Milwaukee because it commonly is overly aggressive, big city attitudes; Madison because it's looked upon somewhat as an elitist group and not infrequently has rather advanced political positions, somewhat to the left of most of the rest of the state. Then, you just have this business of jockeying for power.” Recalls quite an argument between Henry Reuss and Gaylord Nelson, probably over candidacies for the 1952 senate race. They had a good relationship after that, however.
Tape/Side   44/2
Time   18:55
HERMAN JESSEN
Scope and Content Note: Lawton used to spend time with him when he went north to hunt. Jessen was a German Social Democrat who came to the United States before World War I. Helped organize the painters' union in the Chicago area, but left because “the gangs had moved in.” Made a lot of money as a salesman for Mautz Paint in Madison; then became a mink rancher in Vilas County. “Out of the old Social Democratic mold.” An intellectual, like the leaders of the WSFL prior to Haberman.
Tape/Side   44/2
Time   22:40
FARM AND LABOR ADVISORY COMMITTEE TO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Lawton has only a vague recollection of the Farmers' Union and some segments of the labor movement pushing for something along these lines. He was not involved.
Tape/Side   44/2
Time   23:35
EFFECT OF THE CATLIN ACT
Scope and Content Note: “Those were the days when other devises were constantly being used. Labor had never been able to spend a hell of a lot of money anyway. It didn't have it.” In place of direct contributions, labor sponsored fundraisers and the like, which “perhaps were really more effective than giving money because they felt the need for greater activity and I'm of the impression that when it finally was repealled that the proponents of it felt that it wasn't working anyway.” The law was passed at a time when labor was in disarray politically and had little muscle. Hard to say whether the Catlin Act was a cause of those troubles or just a manifestation of the existing political atmosphere.
Tape/Side   44/2
Time   25:25
LABOR'S POLITICAL INFLUENCE PROBABLY PEAKED IN THE EARLY LUCEY ADMINISTRATION
Scope and Content Note: Lawton helped organize an informal political coalition of AFSCME, the Wisconsin Education Association, the Firefighters, the non-union police group, and a group of deputy sheriffs. Working with the rest of labor “we were able to pretty much call the shots around the Capitol for a while there. The emphasis was on the public employee legislation. There wasn't a hell of a lot you could do for the private sector people in terms of labor legislation; it is all preempted by the federal act.” Influence started declining about 1978. Hard to say why; probably just the undulations of politics.
Tape/Side   44/2
Time   28:25
END OF TAPE 44, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   45/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   45/1
Time   00:30
COLLECTIVE BARGAINING LEGISLATION FOR PUBLIC EMPLOYEES
Scope and Content Note: Legislation for county and municipal employees was first passed in 1959, “but it was just a paragraph. In 1961 we substantially added to it.” Substantially changed in 1973, with the addition of the fair share agreement, amongst other things. In 1977, the mediation-arbitration features were added. State employee collective bargaining law passed in 1973. Compulsory binding arbitration for firemen and police. A big start during the Nelson administration and substantial improvements under the Lucey administration. The first bill giving public employees the right to organize was passed during the Walter Kohler Jr. administration, and he vetoed it. Also, Republican Governor Warren Knowles vetoed fair share agreement legislation.
Tape/Side   45/1
Time   04:10
EFFORTS TO FROM A FARMER-LABOR PARTY
Scope and Content Note: From time to time when economic groups get frustrated. Does not see this happening in the near future. “The farmers, there's going to be so few of them left, there's nobody to start a farmer-labor party with in Wisconsin.”
Tape/Side   45/1
Time   05:15
WISCONSIN RURAL AREAS BECOMING “CLUTTERED UP” WITH HOMES OF WORKING PEOPLE
Scope and Content Note: Many Twin Cities workers live in Wisconsin rural areas and commute daily.
Tape/Side   45/1
Time   07:10
LAWTON RAN FOR CITY COUNCIL IN THE SPRING OF 1946 AND LOST
Scope and Content Note: His only try for elective office. Citywide race at the time. Glad he lost. Not a very active campaign. Did not really want to run, but was urged by labor people to do so.
Tape/Side   45/1
Time   08:00
RETROSPECTIVE ASSESSMENT OF THE WISCONSIN DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: “I think it's done quite well. For one thing, we've managed to keep a pretty good delegation in Congress.” “Pretty good job... of running good government. I think once it got started--a lot of the programs that they got started--the Knowles adminstration carried them through just as well. I think the first signs of deterioration in operation of state government occurred during the Dreyfus administration. I think he just did not understand what this system was all about, and put us somewhat into the mess we're in right now, where we had to raise taxes and then lower taxes. The confusion that arises out of that kind of thing is not good.” Democrats able to replace the “less-than-average group of Milwaukee Democrats.” Some of them were scandalous, between their incompetence and their “petty grafting of living off the lobbyists.” Today the Milwaukee delegation is “highly competent.”
Tape/Side   45/1
Time   11:05
SOCIAL WELFARE IN WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: Medicaid and Aid to Dependent Children payments higher in Wisconsin “than almost any other state. That was the Democrats in action that did that.” Today some cities, like Madison, are heavily overloaded with welfare payments, and the Governor is recommending the burden be lifted by having the state take over such payments. “I think that's a typical kind of an attitude, contrasted with the kind that would say, 'To hell with it. Let them starve to death.'” General attitude of Democrats to try to help people solve their problems, rather than simply reacting in a negative way.
Tape/Side   45/1
Time   14:00
“HIGH CLASS ADMINISTRATORS” IN DEMOCRATIC ADMINISTRATIONS
Scope and Content Note: Republican Warren Knowles, also had high quality administrators, including at least one Democrat.
Tape/Side   45/1
Time   15:25
DEMOCRATIC REPLACEMENT OF BELOW AVERAGE MILWAUKEE LEGISLATORS
Scope and Content Note: The labor movement had a hand in this. Many legislative administrative aides became legislators. “When the Democrats had no power..., there was no incentive to try to get some real top-notch people down here because they'd have no influence anyway. But once they developed some power, then it became important that they have good legislators. Right now that delegation is tops.” The replacement occurred primarily during the Lucey administration.
Tape/Side   45/1
Time   18:05
REASON FOR THE RISE OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY INWISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: It was a natural thing to occur once the Progressive Party went out of existence and left a “vacuum, a power gap.” The only reason it took so long was because so many Progressive office-holders went into the Republican Party. Examples of former Progressives who were more liberal as Republicans than many Democrats were. Nelson, Doyle, Fairchild, Lucey and others “were spending one awful lot of their time and energy organizing the party.”
Tape/Side   45/1
Time   21:55
MAINTAINING THE ENTHUSIASM, 1948-1958
Scope and Content Note: “It was very discouraging at times. It was terrible. Some of it was just pure doggedness on the part of people like my wife and some of those women who were keeping that party alive through their stenographic and clerical efforts. Not uncommon to have a mailing of 25,000 pieces out of my house.” Remembers his grand-mother, a typical Irish Democrat from the days of Al Smith, working on a mailing til midnight when she was in her nineties.
Tape/Side   45/1
Time   24:05
SHORTCOMINGS OF THE REPUBLICANS IN THE 1950s
Scope and Content Note: “They just were not doing a good job of running state government. They balanced their budget once by resolution. Damn thing was way out of balance. They just resolved that it was in balance.” So hostile or indifferent to the labor movement, they “had the whole labor movement really stirred up by 1958.” Anecdote about Vernon Thomson refusing to renew Lawton's appointment to what is now the Retirement Research Council. Public employees “Just raised hell with him all over the state, and it wasn't that important. We made it important.”
Tape/Side   45/1
Time   26:20
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/46-49
Subseries: Thomas Fairchild, 1985 March 12
Note: Access online.
Tape/Side   46/1
Time   00:05
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   46/1
Time   00:55
BIOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Born in Milwaukee, December 25, 1912. Lived there through high school. Parents from western New York. Father came to Milwaukee in 1897 and set up law practice. Father elected to state senate as a conservative Republican two times. Ran for Republican gubernatorial nomination in 1910. Appointed to circuit court in Milwaukee by Governor Emmanuel Phillip. “Literally, I have very little recollection of any time that he was not a judge.” Appointed to Wisconsin Supreme Court in 1930. Tom went to a small “college-type institution” in California, called Deep Springs, for two years; then Princeton for two years; then Cornell for a year where he got his B.A. UW-Madison law school, 1934-37, although his degree says 1938 because of a practice requirement he fulfilled after concluding studies. Father originally came to Milwaukee because he thought his uncle would be able to get him a “law job.” No relation to former Governor Lucius Fairchild, or to the Fairchild in “Miller, Mack, and Fairchild” law firm. Father had been somewhat active in politics in New York before coming to Wisconsin.
Tape/Side   46/1
Time   07:50
COLLEGE YEARS
Scope and Content Note: Deep Springs was an institution to which students only went for two or three years. Because his credits did not transfer, he had to start over at Princeton as a freshman. Transferred to Cornell because of a scholarship. Active with Young Republicans at Princeton. Campaigned for Herbert Hoover in 1932. At Cornell, was active in the Liberal Club, which opposed compulsory ROTC. Returned to Wisconsin in 1934 to go to law school and got caught up in the creation of the Progressive Party and the gubernatorial campaign. “That kind of began it. I don't know as I had an overnight conversion, but I was active in the University Progressive Club at Madison.” Influenced by the New Deal. Was not particularly active in campus politics.
Tape/Side   46/1
Time   15:05
CHAIR OF THE YOUNG PROGRESSIVES
Scope and Content Note: Moved to Portage in 1938 to enter law practice with Daniel Grady, a well-known lawyer and political figure. Active in Columbia County Progressive Party and chair of the Young Progressives. Held annual conventions. Not a very large group. “Part...of the general struggle to keep people interested and to get people interested in the Progressive Party and the progressive movement. We would adopt statements of principles and things of that sort at those annual conventions.”
Tape/Side   46/1
Time   17:45
COLUMBIA COUNTY PROGRESSIVE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Would field candidates for local office. Had complete tickets in 1938 and 1940. Regular monthly meetings. “The kind of political activities that is normal, even though we didn't manage to elect anybody either time.”
Tape/Side   46/1
Time   19:20
STATE PROGRESSIVE PARTY AND DEMOCRATIC PARTY DIVIDED EQUALLY THE CENSUS TAKERS IN 1940
Tape/Side   46/1
Time   21:05
DOES NOT RECALL WHETHER THE PROGRESSIVE PARTY WAS A MEMBERSHIP ORGANIZATION LIKE THE DEMOCRATIC ORGANIZING COMMITTEE WAS LATER TO BECOME
Tape/Side   46/1
Time   22:20
WAS NOT IN ATTENDENCE AT STOCK PAVILION WHEN PHIL LA FOLLETTE LAUNCHED THE NATIONAL PROGRESSIVES OF AMERICA
Tape/Side   46/1
Time   22:40
OFFICE OF PRICE ADMINISTRATION (OPA) DURING WORLD II
Scope and Content Note: Started at the end of December, 1941. After three months in Chicago, moved to the district office in Milwaukee. Started as a lawyer and ended up as an administrative law judge, a hearing officer, for the entire region. Left OPA in early fall, 1945.
Tape/Side   46/1
Time   25:00
JOINED MILLER, MACK, AND FAIRCHILD IN MILWAUKEE AFTER WORLD WAR II
Scope and Content Note: A large corporate practice.
Tape/Side   46/1
Time   26:00
NOT ACTIVE IN POLITICS AT THE TIME, BUT DID ATTEND LAST PROGRESSIVE PARTY CONVENTION
Scope and Content Note: Went as a spectator, not a delegate. Francis Wendt, mayor of Racine, and many others from Racine and Kenosha wanted to join the Democrats. Fairchild had leanings in the Republican direction. At the beginning of the convention it was announced that Bob La Follette would not take any public position as to what should be done with the party.
Tape/Side   46/1
Time   28:35
END OF TAPE 46, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   46/2
Time   30:05
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   46/2
Time   30:55
MORE ON LAST PROGRESSIVE PARTY CONVENTION, 1946
Scope and Content Note: Fairchild recalls that the issue before the convention was whether to join the Democrats or the Republicans. As the convention progressed, however, many older Progressives gave emotional speeches in favor of retaining the Progressive Party. Finally, Bob LaFollette felt it was necessary to step in and urge return to the Republican Party.
Tape/Side   46/2
Time   34:10
FARICHILD, AT LEAST NOMINALLY, RETURNED TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AFTER THE 1946 PROGRESSIVE PARTY CONVENTION
Scope and Content Note: Favored Bob La Follette in the senatorial primary, but was not active in the campaign. One factor affecting La Follette's election was his endorsement of Ralph Immell for governor late in the campaign, which caused Governor Goodland to strongly oppose La Follette. Fairchild suspects he voted for McMurray in the general election. Many liberal Democrats took the position before the 1946 primary that the best way to elect a Democratic senator was to have Joe McCarthy win the Republican primary. “Many of them grew to rue the day.” Does not recall whom he voted for for governor. Definitely did not consider himself a Democrat at the time.
Tape/Side   46/2
Time   39:10
ORPHANED REPUBLICANS
Scope and Content Note: Many like himself who considered themselves adrift in 1946 and later bacame active Democrats.
Tape/Side   46/2
Time   41:50
FAIRCHILD DID NOT REALLY CONSIDER HIMSELF A DEMOCRAT UNTIL HE ANNOUNCED HIS CANDIDACY FOR ATTORNEY GENERAL IN 1948
Scope and Content Note: He had been following the emergence of the DOC in the newspapers. Jim Doyle called and asked him to consider running for attorney general. When he made up his mind to run is when he became a Democrat.
Tape/Side   46/2
Time   43:55
FAIRCHILD'S DECISION TO RUN FOR ATTORNEY GENERAL IN 1948
Scope and Content Note: “The sales pitch was this 'We have a group here that's trying to build a party that is interested in sound political and social principles and wants to use the political process for the advancement of human social welfare, and so on; and. we want to have a party like that in Wisconsin; and something that will help in 1950 and beyond will be the fact that we had a ticket running in 1948; and the better the quality that was on that ticket, the better....” Discussed the offer of running for attorney general with one of the partners in his law firm, who was not enthusiastic, but did not say “no.” Talked it over with his wife. Then went to a meeting at a restaurant in Jefferson Junction, attended by Horace Wilkie, Miles McMillin, Carl Thompson, the Henry Reusses, and others. Meeting discussed candidacies. Agreed to run, if he could take his scheduled vacation and if he only had to campaign on evenings and weekends.
Tape/Side   46/2
Time   49:10
FATHER'S REACTION TO TOM'S CANDIDACY
Scope and Content Note: “He would rather, I'm sure, that I'd thought differently, but he knew, of course, about my Progressive affiliations....” Anecdote about an old friend of Tom's father claiming Dan Grady had turned Tom's politics around when he was in Portage. “It was always kind of a friendly difference around the house. I don't know if he voted for me or not; he might have. I'm pretty sure my mother did. We got along all right anyway.”
Tape/Side   46/2
Time   50:50
WON ATTORNEY GENERAL RACE “AS THE RESULT OF.A FLUKE”
Scope and Content Note: Republicans had many candidates running in their primaries and the winners won because of their familiar last names, not their qualifications. Newspapers poked fun at the Republican ticket and the Democrats profited from this. Democratic lieutenant governor nominee came close to winning also. The Democratic-Republican coalition against the Progressives in 1938 elected John Martin attorney general and he was reelected each term through 1946. Before the 1948 elections, John Martin was appointed to the Supreme Court and his nephew, Don, ran for attorney general and won the Republican primary. Probably the Fairchild name was the difference which defeated Martin, while the other Republicans with familiar political names but questionable qualifications won, sometimes narrowly.
Tape/Side   46/2
Time   58:45
END OF TAPE 46, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   47/1
Time   00:30
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   47/1
Time   01:20
REPUBLICAN SUPPORT FOR FAIRCHILD IN 1948
Scope and Content Note: Delbert Kenney, who ran in the (1946) primary against Governor Goodland and who was “the leader of that wing of the Republican party, “ endorsed Fairchild very shortly before the general election.
Tape/Side   47/1
Time   03:30
FAIRCHILD FOR THE MOST PART CARRIED ONLY SOUTHEASTERN COUNTIES IN 1948
Scope and Content Note: Did run well in other counties.
Tape/Side   47/1
Time   04:20
ANECDOTE ABOUT PICKING UP SUPPORT FROM JANESVILLE REPUBLICAN ATTORNEYS
Tape/Side   47/1
Time   05:30
DONALD MARTIN'S REPRESENTATION OF LABOR UNIONS MAY ALSO HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO HIS BAD STANDING WITH MANY REPUBLICANS
Tape/Side   47/1
Time   06:15
THE 1948 FAIRCHILD CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: Young lawyer friends of Fairchild in Milwaukee put out a one-sheet campaign piece showing the credentials of Fairchild and Martin, side by side. The Milwaukee Journal, in a Sunday edition, ran a copy of this campaign piece in a news story. “You can't buy that, I mean in terms of political impact.”
Tape/Side   47/1
Time   08:05
FAIRCHILD ELECTED DEMOCRATIC COMMITTEEMAN FROM SHOREWOOD IN 1948 PRIMARY; ONLY VOTE COUNTED WAS HIS WIFE'S ABSENTEE BALLOT
Tape/Side   47/1
Time   09:05
ANECDOTE ABOUT A CHILD IN HIS DAUGHTER'S FIRST GRADE CLASS SAYING “TODAY IS THE DAY WE ELECT SUSAN'S DADDY”
Scope and Content Note: Occurring as it did in Shorewood, this indicated Republican support.
Tape/Side   47/1
Time   10:10
INDICATIONS DURING THE CAMPAIGN THAT FAIRCHILD MIGHT WIN
Scope and Content Note: Anecdote about his mentioning to Jim Doyle well along in the campaign that he thought he could win. Doyle thought it was a case of “candidatitis.” Anecdote about a mid-October secret meeting with Ashland County Republican leaders.
Tape/Side   47/1
Time   14:25
MORE ON THE 1948 CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: Anecdote about marathon evening of meetings. Fairchild was able to stick to his commitment of campaigning only evenings and weekends. Really had no choice, given the business-oriented law firm for which he worked. “I had to watch myself there.” “There was one point where somebody in that firm rather pointedly suggested that I could leave.”
Tape/Side   47/1
Time   18:25
AFTER HIS ELECTION, HE WAS APPOINTED TO FILL OUT THE UNEXPIRED TERM OF ATTORNEY GENERAL
Scope and Content Note: Grover Broadfoot had been appointed to fill out the term of John Martin when Martin was appointed to the Supreme Court. Broadfoot lost the primary to Donald Martin and was then appointed to another vacancy on the Supreme Court. Fairchild was approached then to see if he would accept appointment to finish the term which Broadfoot was unable to finish. “I discussed that with the people at Miller, Mack.... Well, by this time I had achieved a certain amount of respectability, and there was no problem there.” Some of the middle level partners at Miller, Mack and Fairchild actually made campaign contributions.
Tape/Side   47/1
Time   20:45
DOES NOT RECALL HIS INVOLVEMENT IN THE DOC CONSTITUTION COMMITTEE
Scope and Content Note: He was busy as attorney general and was still living in Shorewood.
Tape/Side   47/1
Time   22:30
DID SPEAK AT SOME LOCAL LEVEL DOC ORGANIZING MEETINGS
Scope and Content Note: Carl Thompson was indefatigable in this activity. “In a sense, I was kind of a showpiece, I suppose, just because of having been elected statewide.” Attempts to expand the local statutory committee into a larger, DOC unit. Recalls a meeting at Neshkoro where very little enthusiasm was shown.
Tape/Side   47/1
Time   25:55
THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN MILWAUKEE, 1948-50
Scope and Content Note: Fairchild attended ward meetings, which were often small, except during campaigns. Often more conservative on some issues, but “regularly with the party ticket.” Different from the Dane County “University-oriented membership.”
Tape/Side   47/1
Time   28:30
END OF TAPE 47, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   47/2
Time   29:50
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   47/2
Time   30:45
MILWAUKEE DEMOCRATIC PARTY RELATIONSHIP WITH THE REST OF THE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Interested in a party that could win elections. Also interested in the “programs and principles which would be good for people generally.” Many active in the labor movement. A certain amount of “cleavage” between Dane County people and some outstate people and Milwaukee activists. This due in part to the traditional jealousy toward the metropolis. Dane County Democrats sometimes thought of themselves as intellectuals and thus looked down on some of the Milwaukee people. “My wife and I migrated back and forth between the Madison area and the Milwaukee area several times during our careers; and a good many times we've had to explain Madison people to Milwaukee people and vice versa.” The new people in Dane and Milwaukee got along pretty well. Milwaukeeans who had been elected to office prior to 1948 had “kind of a little bit of a distrust of some of these outstate people and vice versa. There was a gap to be bridged at times in terms of personalities, and I guess that's about it.”
Tape/Side   47/2
Time   36:30
FOUNDING CONVENTION OF DOC, 1949
Scope and Content Note: Issue of pre-primary endorsements is the only one that stands out in Fairchild's mind. Fairchild personally had mixed feelings about it.
Tape/Side   47/2
Time   38:40
FAILURE TO ENDORSE PRIOR TO THE PRIMARY “HAD A COST”
Scope and Content Note: For example, while the 1950 four war primary for the Democratic senatorial nomination showed interest in the party, the candidates were jockeying for support “and you take positions in a primary that maybe...aren't the ones that you ought to be emphasizing in terms of the final election....” Further, the period between the primary election and the general election in Wisconsin is a very short period in which” to heal any wounds created during the primary. It is also “a short period in which to build up a presentation that you want to make to the general electorate as distinguished from the people that you ask to support you in the primary.” It is also a short period in which to seek financial support.
Tape/Side   47/2
Time   42:40
1950 SENATORIAL PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Fairchild, having been elected to statewide office in 1948, had a name which “was an asset of the state Democratic Party; and, in my view, that asset could have been better used. I think maybe it would have been best used if I'd run for attorney general again.... If I have a regret, that's one of them....” On the other hand, without any Democrat in a more prominent office, the odds of winning reelection as attorney general were not that good. This had a role in his decision to run for the U.S. Senate. “And there were the four of us, as I say, out beating our chests on the campaign hustings and saying how great that we've got four viable candidates. But there was a cost to it.”
Tape/Side   47/2
Time   45:50
1952 DEMOCRATIC SENATORIAL PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: This was different from 1950; Joe McCarthy was not just another Republican. “This was a moral, as well as a political, issue.” Conversations in the fall of 1951 about who should “shoulder this burden, who would have the best...chance to carry this election. There was a meeting at which there was general agreement that the first opportunity should go to Bob La Follette.” La Follette was not interested. “There was not a further kind of organizational effort to put somebody in the field. And this all has non-endorsement lurking in the background.” Henry Reuss announced his candidacy in late 1951. Fairchild was, at the time, a U.S. attorney. He would therefore have to give up his job if he bacame a candidate. He had recently moved to Verona. He still had some campaign debts from 1950. “And I simply could not afford to get into a campaign without some kind of assurance that this was the right thing to do.” In May 1952 he decided “that this was not the right thing to do, and so said, and took myself out of it.” Changed his mind by the end of June. Close primary. Eleanor Roosevelt was arriving in Milwaukee the day after the primary. Fairchild left Madison for Milwaukee to meet her at the depot not knowing whether he had won the primary or not. One cost of non-endorsement in the 1952 senatorial primary was that people outside Wisconsin who wanted to contribute money toward McCarthy's defeat gave much of their contributions to Len Schmitt in the Republican primary because the Democrats did not have a single candidate in their primary. McCarthy's impressive victory in the primary over Schmitt discouraged campaign contributors.
Tape/Side   47/2
Time   53:15
1952 GENERAL ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: After the primary, Fairchild's chances seemed very poor. Toward the end of the campaign, his chances looked better and campaign contributions increased considerably, but too late. The campaign received late money which could not be spent in the time remaining. “And that's a tragedy.”
Tape/Side   47/2
Time   54:30
EARLY CAMPAIGN FINANCES
Scope and Content Note: Fairchild personally spent six hundred dollars on his 1948 campaign and others spent about the same on his behalf. In 1950, he spent about twenty-five hundred dollars personally, and about thirty thousand dollars was spent on the combined gubernatorial-senatorial campaigns. In 1952, he again personally spent about twenty-five hundred dollars, and about sixty-five thousand dollars was spent on the “Fairchild for Senator” campaign all told. A considerable amount of the sixty-five thousand was late money, some of which was turned over to the “Proxmire for Governor” campaign and some was used for the campaign debts of a candidate in Indiana. “It was just too late to be spent for its main objective, which was the defeat of McCarthy.”
Tape/Side   47/2
Time   56:45
MORE ON 1952 GENERAL ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: By the close of the campaign, it looked as though he might have a chance to win. Feels the turning point came from a speech made by McCarthy rather than anything the Fairchild campaign did.
Tape/Side   47/2
Time   58:30
END OF TAPE 47, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   48/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   48/1
Time   00:50
MORE ON THE 1952 GENERAL ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: In early October he was discouraged, but soon thereafter he started receiving support from people he did not know. A woman wrote to say she was organizing a “Republicans for Fairchild” group. The turning point came in mid-October when McCarthy made a speech attacking Adlai Stevenson, implying that Stevenson was taking some unAmerican positions and that some of Stevenson's advisors and campaign workers were UnAmerican. “And he said, 'Of course, I am not really saying that Governor Stevenson is unAmerican, but...it is just some of these people that are advising him, some of his campaign workers.' And he said, 'I would just love to be able to climb up on that campaign train with a slippery elm club and beat some Americanism into those guys,' words to that effect.... This idea of beating Americanism into people with a club, somehow sparked some feeling that maybe this wasn't just purely a political approach to things and that this didn't deserve support and that the opposition to McCarthy did deserve support.... I would say that the vote in November was considerably more favorable to me than it would have been had the election been held before he made that speech.”
Tape/Side   48/1
Time   06:05
FAIRCHILD'S CAMPAIGN AGAINST McCARTHY
Scope and Content Note: The type of campaign to run was a difficult decision. No one knew how many normally Democratic voters were accepting McCarthy's anti-communism. “So I made the choice and I campaigned as basically a liberal Democrat, except that there were speeches directed specifically at opposition to the McCarthy methods....” Stressed economic issues and yet in every speech promised “to be for American principles and against any kind of disloyalty, but that any efforts in that direction had to be carried out strictly in accordance with American principles of justice, the fightcommunism-in-the-courtroom type of...approach, rather than attack by accusation and innuendo.”
Tape/Side   48/1
Time   09:15
FAIRCHILD'S DECISION TO RUN FOR SENATOR IN 1952
Scope and Content Note: After his announcement in May that he was not running, he went to a meeting in Washington, D.C., of U.S. attorneys and “I kept getting in conversations with just anybody...'what are you doing out there about this guy McCarthy?' And I said, 'Well, we're going to try to defeat him.' But that kept kind of coming back with another edge on it to me. 'What are you doing about it?' and, of course, I was doing nothing.... And this began to disturb me more than it had previously.” Returned to Wisconsin in early June feeling maybe he had made the wrong decision. “Maybe I had to do it.” Gaylord Nelson and Warrren Sawall were the individuals who had the most to do with changing his mind. They spent hours in his office trying to convince him to run. “I also got calls from people I am not going to name, people who said they would welcome his candidacy, but who publically would remain loyal to Reuss.” Former Progressive Ralph Immell encouraged him to run. Immell predicted that Taft or Eisenhower would receive the Republican nomination. Taft would not carry Wisconsin and Eisenhower would repudiate McCarthy. Either circumstance would benefit Fairchild's candidacy. Shortly thereafter Immell called from the Republican convention advising Fairchild not to run, claiming that his previous adivce had been to run only if Taft got the nomination. Fairchild, who had already announced his candidacy, interpreted Immell's call to mean that Immell had received information at the convention that Eisenhower would not repudiate McCarthy. “And, of course, that's the way it went. Eisenhower did not disavow McCarthy. And obviously that would have made a considerable difference.”
Tape/Side   48/1
Time   17:35
MORE ON THE 1952 CAMPAIGN AGAINST McCARTHY
Scope and Content Note: Fairchild's wife campaigned for him, usually travelling with Democratic candidate for state treasurer, Ruth Doyle. they attended many women's functions. Republican women would express abhorrence of McCarthy's methods, “'but we have to support him.... We owe him our support; he gave us our issue.' Or, they would say, 'Well, we can't stand his methods; but the party can take care of him, when he gets back.' And, of course, somebody took care of him” after the Army-McCarthy hearings. Fairchild feels the Republican Party'had decided that Eisenhower needed McCarthy in order to win, but the results in Wisconsin showed that “they were underselling Eisenhower and overestimating McCarthy.” Eisenhower could have won repudiating McCarthy and Fairchild probably would then have defeated McCarthy.
Tape/Side   48/1
Time   21:30
ARGUMENTS USED TO CONVINCE FAIRCHILD TO RUN FOR SENATOR
Scope and Content Note: Mainly that his chances of winning were better than Reuss', having been previously elected attorney general “on a somewhat bipartisan basis,” having made a good senatorial race two years previously, and having made contacts as attorney general.
Tape/Side   48/1
Time   23:40
MORE ON 1952 DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Limited in terms of time and money. Made as many appearances as possible. Was campaigning in Milwaukee the Sunday before the primary and became convinced that Reuss was winning. Scraped up enough money to buy a half hour of time on the Milwaukee Journal's television station that Sunday evening. His wife and four children appeared on the show with him. His youngest child was only three years old and he got tired of the show and started to cry. His wife exited the set with the child. The next morning he was at Milwaukee plant gates, “and I can't tell you how many times I was recognized by people by saying 'Oh, we know you; it was your little boy that cried on television.'”
Tape/Side   48/1
Time   27:50
END OF TAPE 48, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   48/2
Time   29:05
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   48/2
Time   30:00
MORE ON THE 1952 DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Reuss carried Milwaukee County; vote pretty well split otherwise.
Tape/Side   48/2
Time   30:35
MORE ON 1950 DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Impressive interest amongst candidates in the senatorial primary because of the Truman victory in 1948 and the good showing of Democrats in other statewide races in 1948. Sanderson had considerable labor support.
Tape/Side   48/2
Time   34:10
1950 GENERAL ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: “The Korean disaster really mounted during 1950” and “one of my friends said, 'You weren't defeated by the votes, you were defeated by the Chinese soldiers.'”
Tape/Side   48/2
Time   35:25
MORE ON 1950 DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Without much money, the key factor was newspaper publicity. Candidates tried to make statements which would not only reflect their positions and sell well to supporters, but also grab the attention of the newpapers. Many speeches, each accompanied by a press release. In 1950, “we very largely campaigned together,” attending DOC picnics and the like. Would draw lots to see what order they would speak in, “and it was a tough row to hoe if you were fourth because the thing that you'd picked as your release for the day might be picked off by one of the other candidates. At the end of that campaign I could have given Sanderson's speech, Hoan's speech, or Dilweg's speech, and they probably could have given mine.” Anecdote about Hoan using paper as a prop in his speech; once, being without a handy sheet of paper, he grabbed Sanderson's speech. Little differentiation on the issues. Primary fought largely “in terms of credentials.”
Tape/Side   48/2
Time   40:30
MORE ON 1952 DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Each tried to state their strengths and “about what our challenge was to the McCarthy methods.... I don't believe that there were many instances where we drew issues between ourselves.”
Tape/Side   48/2
Time   41:00
FAIRCHILD'S TERM AS ATTORNEY GENERAL
Scope and Content Note: “As attorney general, I put out opinions which made more campaign propaganda against me than you would imagine.” Unpopular opinions on local option; on released time for religious instruction in which he took the separation of church and state point of view; in opposition to use of public school buses for transportation of parochial school children; in opposition to an American Dairy Association plan to tax farmers for advertising; and “the killer,” in opposition to the lottery aspects of the radio show “Stop the Music.” People took this latter decision so seriously that some even wrote it on their paper ballots.
Tape/Side   48/2
Time   45:15
FINAL COMMENTS ON THE 1952 GENERAL ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: “It was a very deeply felt sort of a decision. It took a lot of soul-searching because I didn't want just to run in order to run. That was the last thing in my mind. I felt that Henry Reuss was my friend and I didn't want to run against him. I knew it would cause a certain amount of problem momentarily.... I wasn't interested in running just in the sense of gaining an office.... It was a difficult decision to make, but it just seemed as if this was something one had to do to live with himself.” Because he had to give up his job in order to run, he had no income during the campaign. Mortgaged his car in 1950 and again in 1952; increased the mortgage on his home in 1952. During the campaign, he would meet people who would contribute to his home expenses rather than to his campaign. “You keep that in your heart, too.” Other heartwarming aspects of the campaign.
Tape/Side   48/2
Time   50:45
“JOE MUST GO” MOVEMENT
Scope and Content Note: He was consulted, but was not active in the sense of circulating petitions and the like. He did discuss the legal ramifications, given the fact that “the senate itself is the judge of the qualifications of the members of the senate.” “Joe Must Go” incorporated and was found guilty of using corporate funds for political purposes by the circuit court, but this was overturned by the state supreme court. Did not lend his name to the movement.
Tape/Side   48/2
Time   52:00
AFTER 1952 ELECTION, FAIRCHILD RETURNED TO LAW PRACTICE IN MILWAUKEE
Scope and Content Note: Fairchild, Charne, and Kops. He was made a full partner and his name was listed first from the time he joined the firm.
Tape/Side   48/2
Time   54:15
ELECTION TO WISCONSIN SUPREME COURT IN 1956 TO SUCCEED HIS FATHER
Scope and Content Note: Used to drive his father to his New York farm each summer. “I think maybe that that idea of the supreme court candidacy got hatched...while we were driving along through the countryside.” Father was favorable to this candidacy. Father was ineligible by law for re-election because of his age.
Tape/Side   48/2
Time   57:30
END OF TAPE 48, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   49/1
Time   00:10
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   49/1
Time   01:05
MORE ON DECISION TO RUN FOR THE SUPREME COURT
Scope and Content Note: Decision made in the summer of 1955. Tested the waters by writing many letters to many different people, despite their politics. Received many favorable responses.
Tape/Side   49/1
Time   04:40
PARTY ACTIVITY BETWEEN 1952 ELECTION AND SUPREME COURT CANDIDACY
Scope and Content Note: Had maintained party membership and attended conventions. At the 1954 convention he served on the committee to draft the party's platform plank on foreign affairs. Tried to work some kind of recognition of China into the platform; was able to include a weak mention. Ironic that Richard Nixon could establish relations with China, “but a Democrat couldn't even say they were for it.”
Tape/Side   49/1
Time   07:15
APPOINTED U.S. APPEALS JUDGE AFTER HIS REELECTION TO THE WISCONSIN SUPREME COURT BUT BEFORE HIS FIRST TERM HAD ACTUALLY EXPIRED (AUGUST 1966)
Scope and Content Note: District appeals court judges in the seventh circuit are distributed amongst Illinois, Wisconsin, and Indiana, with an understanding that Illinois would have more than the other two states. Wisconsin usually had one of the eight judges. The appointment was made without any difficulty.
Tape/Side   49/1
Time   10:55
SIGNIFICANT DECISIONS WHILE HE WAS ON THE WISCONSIN SUPREME COURT
Scope and Content Note: During his term the court became “somewhat favorable to more recovery by the plaintiff.” He was the lone dissenter in a late 1950s decision to affirm a lower court decision that trade unions could not be sued for discriminating on the basis of race. “Considering the trend of the law since 1958, that wasn't such an outlandish position to take. And that's one that I am just as happy to have written.”
Tape/Side   49/1
Time   13:55
THE “SHOESTRING” CAMPAIGNS OF THE DEMOCRATS IN THE 1940s AND 1950s
Tape/Side   49/1
Time   15:40
MORE ON OPINIONS AS ATTORNEY GENERAL
Scope and Content Note: During the 1950 campaign, advised Governor Rennebohm that a local government could establish rent control. This was unpopular in Milwaukee. Recalls speaking to a labor union meeting and quoting a labor leader who had said “that I was too damned honest for politics. So I tried to make that into a success-gaining sort of thing.”
Tape/Side   49/1
Time   17:00
IMPORTANT PEOPLE IN THE REFORMATION OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: In addition to those mentioned already--Carl Thompson, Gaylord Nelson, Horace Wilkie, Jim Doyle, Ruth Doyle--also important were Pat Lucey, Bill Duffy, Clem Zablocki, Henry Reuss, Bob Tehan, Bill Proxmire, John Reynolds (who was an intern in the attorney general's office when Fairchild was elected to that position), Nat Heffernan, Henry Maier, Jerry Fox, Ben Saltzstein, Eppie Lederer (Ann Landers).
Tape/Side   49/1
Time   19:35
BEN SALTZSTEIN “WAS A BULWARK” IN THE FUNDRAISING AREA
Tape/Side   49/1
Time   20:00
ANECDOTE ABOUT A MILWAUKEE DENTIST WHO PROVIDED THE FAIRCHILD FAMILY FREE DENTAL CARE AFTER THE 1952 ELECTION
Tape/Side   49/1
Time   20:35
GREAT HELP GIVEN TO WISCONSIN DEMOCRATS BY HUBERT HUMPHREY DURING THE FORMATIVE PERIOD
Tape/Side   49/1
Time   21:30
END OF INTERVIEW
Subseries: Gaylord Nelson
Audio   1030A/50-51
1985 March 25
Note: Access online.
Tape/Side   50/1
Time   00:30
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   50/1
Time   01:15
BIOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Born and raised in Clear Lake, Wisconsin. Father a country doctor and strong La Follette supporter. Mother politically active at a time when a few women were. Father chairman of Polk County Progressive Party; supported Democrats nationally, including Woodrow Wilson.
Tape/Side   50/1
Time   03:25
ANECDOTE ABOUT ATTENDING A SPEECH BY BOB LA FOLLETTE JR., AT AMERY WHEN HE WAS TEN YEARS OLD
Scope and Content Note: On the way home his father asked him if he thought he would get into politics. He responded that he would like to, “but I was afraid that Bob La Follette would solve all the problems before I got old enough; and then there wouldn't be anything for me to do.” In 1958, his father, just days before his death, asked, “'Do you think that Bob La Follette left enough problems behind for you to tackle now that you're running for governor?'”
Tape/Side   50/1
Time   05:50
PASSED NOMINATION PAPERS FOR PROGRESSIVE CANDIDATES WHEN IN HIGH SCHOOL
Scope and Content Note: Also passed literature, etc.
Tape/Side   50/1
Time   06:50
PARENTS SUPPORTED AL SMITH FOR PRESIDENT
Scope and Content Note: Always Democrats at the national level.
Tape/Side   50/1
Time   07:35
COMPARISON OF WISCONSIN'S ONE-PARTY SYSTEM WITH THE SOUTH'S
Scope and Content Note: The La Follettes picked the progressive Republican slate to run against the Stalwarts. The Republican primary winners were virtually assured of winning the general election, except in a few heavily Democratic areas in Milwaukee.
Tape/Side   50/1
Time   08:55
LA FOLLETTE ATTACKS ON NATIONAL AND STATE REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP
Scope and Content Note: “They never were Republicans.” In 1932, the La Follettes endorsed Democratic gubernatorial candidate Albert Schmedeman, as did Nelson's father.
Tape/Side   50/1
Time   11:10
NELSON DID NOT JOIN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN 1946 WHEN HE RAN IN THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: “I was with the La Follette progressives.”
Tape/Side   50/1
Time   11:25
DISSOLUTION OF THE PROGRESSIVE PARTY IN 1946
Scope and Content Note: The Progressives had done so poorly in 1944, “they barely got on the ballot.... So they had to do something.” Nelson's father was chairman of the Polk County delegation to the 1946 Progressive convention. The delegation was instructed first, to keep the Progressive Party; second, that failing, to go to the Democrats; and “thirdly and most importantly, do whatever young Bob La Follette says.”
Tape/Side   50/1
Time   13:00
MORE ON NELSON'S 1946 RACE FOR THE ASSEMBLY
Scope and Content Note: Had not really spent much time in Polk County for eleven years, because of college and the army, but “I still came very close in that election.... By the time the election came, I didn't care whether I won or not because the Beggs and Lawton law firm had invited me to come down to Madison. That's where I wanted to go anyway.”
Tape/Side   50/1
Time   13:55
MORE ON THE 1946 PROGRESSIVE PARTY CONVENTION
Scope and Content Note: Some have speculated that the Progressives would have joined the Democrats if Bob La Follette had remained silent.
Tape/Side   50/1
Time   14:45
COLLEGE YEARS
Scope and Content Note: Went to college at Eau Claire for a short time on a basketball “athletic scholarship” and lived with the coach. Switched to River Falls during his first semester and stayed there only a few weeks. Returned home. Worked on WPA projects the rest of that school year. Then went to San Jose State where his sister had gone and where his aunt taught. Returned home each summer. Graduated 1939. Other than some peace activities, very little politics at San Jose State. “But when I went to Madison, there sure was.” On the Madison campus, the Young Progressive Club was the largest, followed by the Young Democrats, and then the Young Communist League. Nelson was president of the Young Progressive Club in 1940. Had maybe 350 members. Monthly speakers. Remembers Andy Biemiller speaking once on health insurance, “socialized medicine.” Got involved in campaigns. With Miles McMillin, Roland Day, and John Lawton, he campaigned for Bob La Follette and Paul Alfonsi in 1940.
Tape/Side   50/1
Time   20:25
ANECDOTE ABOUT VICE PRESIDENT HENRY WALLACE'S APPEARANCE AT THE STOCK PAVILLION DURING THE 1940 CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: Wallace's son was an officer of the Young Democrats and also a member of the Young Progressive Club. “When Wallace was coming, we wanted to be sure that that big showing for him had a good La Follette input.” Young Progressive Club handled the literature for the event; put La Follette literature inside all the Wallace literature and placed it on every seat in the Stock Pavillion. State Democratic ticket walked off the platform when they could not convince Wallace to delete praise of the “great La Follette tradition.” Young Democrats Nelson knew were “Roosevelt Democrats” but they did not like La Follette because his presence prevented a strong Democratic party in the state.
Tape/Side   50/1
Time   26:40
LA FOLLETTE DOMINANCE OF THE PROGRESSIVE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Old Bob's widow had a role in stopping Sol Levitan's ambitions for the Progressive gubernatorial nomination, according to Levitan's biography.
Tape/Side   50/1
Time   28:55
END OF TAPE 50, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   50/2
Time   30:35
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   50/2
Time   31:20
MORE ON LA FOLLETTE CONTROL OF THE PROGRESSIVE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: People other than the La Follettes' hand-picked candidates would run in the Progressive primary. “But they did have a very powerful voice and their support was very important.”
Tape/Side   50/2
Time   32:10
NELSON'S FATHER ATTENDED THE 1938 FOUNDING OF THE NATIONAL PROGRESSIVES OF AMERICA (NPA)
Scope and Content Note: Gaylord not in attendence, but did sell some NPA buttons.
Tape/Side   50/2
Time   34:15
EVERYONE SURPRISED HOW CLOSE CARL THOMPSON CAME TO WINNING HIS RACE IN THE 1947 SPECIAL CONGRESSIONAL ELECTION
Tape/Side   50/2
Time   38:45
NELSON'S ELECTION AS STATE SENATOR, 1948
Scope and Content Note: Floyd Wheeler was the presumed candidate; but he and his law partner, Norris Maloney, decided that would constitute a conflict of interest since they represented all the Rural Electric Cooperatives in the state and there was a lot of legislation pertaining to them. Nelson, with several of his friends, drew up petitions asking him (Nelson) to run. “A fairly transparent proposition.”
Tape/Side   50/2
Time   40:20
TOM FAIRCHILD'S ELECTION IN 1948
Scope and Content Note: Defeated his opponent for attorney general because of the latter's public intoxication.
Tape/Side   50/2
Time   41:00
MORE ON NELSON'S 1948 ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: Progressives ran in the Republican primary in 1946 in Dane County and won. Democrats tried to get state senator Fred Risser to run as a Democrat in 1948, but he stayed with the Republicans since his fellow Progressives had won as Republicans two years previous. Bill Evjue, editor of the Capital Times, repudiated Risser because he would not run as a Democrat, even though Risser's record in the Capital Times roll call was excellent. Miles McMillin wrote Nelson's news releases, then wrote stories based on the news releases, “and then he'd write an editorial endorsing what I said.” Narrowly won on the coattails of gubernatorial candidate Carl Thompson and presidential candidate Harry Truman. Did not expect to win. In Dane County the Democratic slate in 1948 wiped out the Republican slate of former Progressives who had been elected in 1946, except for the clerk of courts. Nelson ran in 1948 because “It was an opportunity. I was interested in running for office.” Also, “a lot of the key people in pane County who really counted were friends of mine, who were active--Lawton and McMillin and Esther Kaplan and my sister Janet Lee....” No one else was very interested because Risser looked unbeatable.
Tape/Side   50/2
Time   45:55
DECLINE OF THE PROGRESSIVE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: “Roosevelt was doing everything the Progressives were advocating. And the national issues were so dominant.” Weakened by not having a presidential candidate to head the ticket every other election.
Tape/Side   50/2
Time   49:15
NELSON SUSPECTS HE VOTED FOR THE DEMOCRATIC TICKET IN THE 1946 GENERAL ELECTION
Tape/Side   50/2
Time   50:25
FOUNDING OF THE DOC, 1948
Scope and Content Note: Nelson served as co-chair because chairman Jerry Fox “didn't want to be out organizing. I wasn't interested in patronage.” Fox and Bob Tehan “were trying to get rid of the influence of the old conversative Democrats. So they made me co-chairman with Jerry Fox, and he'd handle patronage and me organization.” Apparently Henry Maier was also considered for co-chair. DOC was formed “to organize the state.”
Tape/Side   50/2
Time   55:35
SELECTION OF THE 1948 DOC SLATE FOR STATE OFFICES
Scope and Content Note: Nelson recalls a meeting at the home of Julia Boegholt with Tehan, McMillin, and probably Fairchild also in attendence. Tehan was calling long distance to come up with “prestigeful names” to fill the slate. “And then I heard Tehan say, 'Yes, yes. I can guarantee you you won't win.'”
Tape/Side   50/2
Time   57:25
CHARLES GREENE ATTEMPTED TO WITHHOLD FROM THE DOC THE RECORDS OF THE STATUTORY PARTY
Tape/Side   50/2
Time   59:15
END OF TAPE 50, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   51/1
Time   00:35
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   51/1
Time   01:30
WISCONSIN DEMOCRATS PRIOR TO 1948
Scope and Content Note: Generally were only interested in partonage. President Roosevelt allotted half the patronage jobs to Democrats and half to Progressives, and the Democrats did not like that. Most remained inactive after 1948, but most liked what was happening in the party “because for the first time they were becoming a credible party.”
Tape/Side   51/1
Time   03:45
ORGANIZING LOCAL DOC UNITS
Scope and Content Note: Nelson very active in this. Party paid for his gasoline. “...For all practical purposes, Dane county ran the organizing of the state.” “The women in Dane county were a vital part of it all.... They got out the mail. They did all the nitty-gritty work.” There were people outstate who were active in their own areas, but the people who were organizing things statewide were from Dane County. For the most part, the local contacts were former Progressives. Nelson estimates he visited half of Wisconsin's counties doing this organizing work.
Tape/Side   51/1
Time   09:10
SELECTION OF NATIONAL COMMITTEEMEN AND COMMITTEEWOMEN
Scope and Content Note: Selected by the delegates to the national convention. Later changed so that they were elected by the state convention.
Tape/Side   51/1
Time   12:00
FIRST DOC CONVENTION, 1949
Scope and Content Note: The enthusiasm stands out in Nelson's mind. “A whale of a convention.” Nelson knew almost every person there. Twenty years later he only knew about twenty percent of the delegates to a convention.
Tape/Side   51/1
Time   13:25
VOLUNTEERISM OF DOC
Scope and Content Note: “Wisconsin is a volunteer state. Patronage is of no consequence.” This is better than states where the governor makes many appointments. “Volunteers are there because they believed and they philosophically shared a viewpoint of the party. And therefore they organize and work and are enthusiastic. And you can no way buy that.”
Tape/Side   51/1
Time   15:05
DEMOCRATIC LEGISLATORS AFTER THE 1948 ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: When Nelson was first elected to the state senate, there were so few Democrats, sometimes there was no Democrat available to second his motion for a roll call. Proposed legislation, debated the issues. “If something good came along, that was good politics, the Republicans would take it, steal it, of course, because they had every committee chair.”
Tape/Side   51/1
Time   18:15
DURING WORLD WAR II NELSON WAS COMPANY COMMANDER OF A BLACK COMPANY
Scope and Content Note: Discussion of and anecdotes about the Army's segregation.
Tape/Side   51/1
Time   21:25
REPUBLICANS STOLE NELSON'S BILL TO DESEGREGATE THE WISCONSIN NATIONAL GUARD
Tape/Side   51/1
Time   22:40
MORE ON DEMOCRATS IN THE LEGISLATURE IN THE LATE 1940s AND EARLY 1950s
Scope and Content Note: Would introduce bills which Republicans would bottle up in committee, thereby giving the Democrats campaign issues. “That kind of trench warfare went on for a long time.”
Tape/Side   51/1
Time   24:45
1950 DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY FOR U.S. SENATE
Scope and Content Note: Four people ran. “A gambler's chance--Wiley's up, the party's growing, and a crack at the U.S. Senate.” “Dan Hoan was a good old warhorse who just liked to get into campaigns, talk his philosophy.”
Tape/Side   51/1
Time   27:20
1952 SENATE RACE
Scope and Content Note: Nelson did not want to run because he was up for election as state senator and did not think a Democrat could win the U.S. Senate seat. There was a poll of the party to determine a preferred candidate. Eddie Mesheski in Milwaukee had the ballot box and “for some reason or another, nobody could get him to open it up.”
Tape/Side   51/1
Time   29:15
END OF TAPE 51, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   51/2
Time   30:35
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   51/2
Time   31:25
MORE ON THE 1952 SENATE RACE
Scope and Content Note: Eventually the results of the poll leaked, with Nelson or Fairchild as the winner. Dane County people favored Fairchild over Henry Reuss, who had announced his candidacy. Fairchild finally announced at the last minute and there was a furious effort to get his nomination papers signed. There were only about four days in which to get the papers printed, circulated, and filed. In the general election, Nelson was surprised that Fairchild beat McCarthy so strongly in the.heavily Catholic south side of Milwaukee. Nelson preferred Fairchild over Reuss because Reuss at that time “didn't have any reputation statewide.... We were looking for prestigeful people and names.” Fairchild was obviously the strongest candidate. Anecdote about a compaign fundraising event in Milwaukee. “I counted it up. It was tremendous. Jerry Fox says, '...I've been around a long time. Just cut it in half.' And he was right.... We got half of what everybody promised.”
Tape/Side   51/2
Time   37:20
JIM CORCORAN AND DOC FINANCES
Scope and Content Note: Corcoran, a lumberman in Burnett County, seemed to be the only prominent Democrat at the time who had a lot of money. Nelson was visiting Corcoran once when Bob Tehan called and Corcoran agreed over the phone to give one thousand dollars to pay a particular party bill. Corcoran “appointed all the precinct people in his county. Just appointed them. Everyone of them then was a woman on the grounds that they'd do some work and their husbands wouldn't.” For the state convention, Corcoran would rent a bus for them and also pay for their rooms. Corcoran had Nelson speak to a dinner he had for the party workers in his county. He took over a steak house for the evening; dinner and all drinks were on him. Nelson was impressed with the check for six hundred fifty dollars that Corcoran wrote out to pay for the evening. He gave ten thousand dollars to the 1932 Roosevelt campaign. “A very intelligent and a very gracious gentleman.” Never finished high school.
Tape/Side   51/2
Time   42:30
OTHER LARGE DONORS TO THE DOC
Scope and Content Note: Ben Saltzstein of Milwaukee, “an active, interested Democrat and a man of considerable means.” John Reynold's father-in-law, the founder of Thorp Finance.
Tape/Side   51/2
Time   46:10
THE McCARTHY “TRUTH SQUAD”
Scope and Content Note: Warren Sawall, Horace Wilkie, Miles McMillin, Jim Doyle, and Nelson “would kind of follow Joe as a 'Truth Squad.'” Anecdote about McCarthy speaking in La Crosse and the “Truth Squad” stationed outside with a loudspeaker “exposing McCarthy's record. And the only thing that ever happened is people came up there who were on McCatrthy's side to denounce us.” Nelson was not involved in the “Joe Must Go” movement.
Tape/Side   51/2
Time   50:30
PRE-PRIMARY ENDORSEMENTS AND ALEXANDER WILEY'S 1956 ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: Nelson opposed pre-primary endorsements. Wiley was re-elected in 1956 in large part because his party had repudiated him by endorsing Glenn Davis. The party preferred Davis because he was more conservative. Famous photograph of Wiley and his wife dejectedly leaving the Republican convention after the endorsement of Davis. That photo, which appeared on the front page of the Milwaukee Journal, won Wiley many votes. Also, Davis made some mistakes, like attacking Wiley for promoting the purchase of Israel bonds. This outraged many Jews so much that Democrats crossed over and voted in the Republican primary in order to defeat Davis; Esther Kaplan is an example of this. “That was one of the arguments against endorsement.... Who is the party to tell the public who the candidates should be?” Example of the Democratic Farmer Labor Party in Minnesota attempting to repudiate an incumbent by endorsing someone else; backfired. Nelson also had a practical reason for opposing endorsements. “The Capital Times was just wild against endorsement and they were my best supporters. So I wasn't going to take them on.... There was never a serious possibility that the Democrats would engage in pre-primary endorsements.”
Tape/Side   51/2
Time   57:70
END OF TAPE 51, SIDE 2
Audio   1030A/52-53
1985 March 28
Note: Access online.
Tape/Side   52/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   52/1
Time   00:45
NELSON'S ROLE IN THE WISCONSIN DEMOCRATIC PARTY, 1952-1958
Scope and Content Note: Did a lot of speaking around the state. Ran for Congress in 1954. Served on the Administrative Committee.
Tape/Side   52/1
Time   01:40
NELSON'S CONGRESSIONAL RACE, 1954; REFUSAL TO RUN IN 1956
Scope and Content Note: Did not expect to win. “I ran just to get my name around.” Horace Wilkie, who had made the race three times, had done a tremendous amount of door to door campaigning in one of the district's eastern counties, “and never changed a single vote. So I didn't campaign at all there and got the same vote he did.” “I ran to put on a race and get some experience and to get my name known.” It was an off year for his state senate seat. “I wasn't taking on any losing races when my own office was up.” In 1956, when his senate seat was up, he refused to run for Congress. Pat Lucey “was pretty upset, thought I owed it to the party or some such nonsense as that.”
Tape/Side   52/1
Time   04:05
WISCONSIN'S SECOND CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT
Scope and Content Note: Had a Progressive Congressman for some time, then reelected conservative Glenn Davis several times, then reelected liberal Bob Kastenmeier many times. One of the reasons the conservative could win consistently in this supposedly liberal district was that many local officials who had been Progressives had gone into the Republican Party and continued as Republicans to draw votes which helped the entire ticket.
Tape/Side   52/1
Time   05:50
TENDENCY FOR CONGRESSMEN TO GET REELECTED
Scope and Content Note: Melvin Laird, a conservative, had held his congressional seat for many years. When he vacated that seat to join the Nixon administration, liberal David Obey won the seat in a special election and was soon being reelected by the same substantial margins by which Laird had won. Once Congressmen get known in their districts, “they carry a lot of personal strength that's unrelated to partisan politics.”
Tape/Side   52/1
Time   08:45
LESTER JOHNSON'S CONGRESSIONAL VICTORY, 1953
Scope and Content Note: Nelson and many others campaigned for Johnson. The race attracked national attention, since it was the first one after President Eisenhower's big victory. Anecdote about Johnson not returning a call to the New York Times because “they don't have any circulation in my district.” Miles McMillin told this to the Times, and the Times replied with the number of subscribers in the district. the Republicans took Johnson too lightly. “It's a special election and in special elections with a relatively small turnout, the one who's best organized has a good chance of winning.”
Tape/Side   52/1
Time   13:05
NELSON'S FRIENDSHIP WITH MELVIN LAIRD
Scope and Content Note: “Mel was the best debater the Republicans had.... And I loved to debate; and he did too.... We'd spend all day long fighting on the floor of the senate. And then he'd come on out to my place for dinner or we'd go on over to the Park Hotel and have a beer and bat the breeze.... So we were very good friends from the first time I met him in the legislature.”
Tape/Side   52/1
Time   15:35
NELSON'S 1958 GUBERNATORIAL RACE
Scope and Content Note: As always, had hope of winning, “but I was really aiming at getting a statewide notice and constituency and so forth.” In June 1958 Lou Harris did a poll for the Steelworkers and in that poll Nelson had a seven percent name recognition and incumbent Governor Vernon Thomson had about a ninety percent name recognition. In the same poll Thomson had fifty percent of the vote and Nelson had thirty percent. Nelson was never able to get a copy of the poll; the Harris people claimed it was lost. Nelson won the election because of the Democratic trend and because he ran a better campaign. Lou Harris' advice was to talk about national issues, not state issues during the campaign, and not to attack Thomson because he was popular. Nelson ignored this advice. Because he had been in the legislature so long he knew a lot about state issues and talked a lot about state issues until the press began to see that these were substantive issues. His campaign used television and the television spots were much better than Thomson's. While he felt a trend developing, right up to the day of the election he thought it looked like Proxmire would win, but he would not. Nelson did his own campaign strategy. Anecdote about a statement against Orville Faubus which Nelson made during the campaign. A southerner called Nelson's wife to berate Nelson; Nelson's wife, a southerner herself, disarmed the fellow by the end of the conversation. Hit at least one plant gate every morning of the campaign. Campaigned from about five in the morning to about ten at night. Spent $76,000 in the 1958 campaign and $124,000 in the 1960 campaign.
Tape/Side   52/1
Time   28:35
END OF TAPE 52, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   52/2
Time   29:40
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   52/2
Time   30:35
MORE ON THE 1958 GUBERNATORIAL CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: Twenty-five dollar fundraising dinners. Spent more than any Democrat had ever spent in a campaign in Wisconsin. Edmund Muskie campaigned for Nelson, as did Estes Kefauver, Hubert Humphrey, and Orville Freeman.
Tape/Side   52/2
Time   33:25
EXPLANATION OF THE 1958 DEMOCRATIC VICTORY IN WISCONSIN AT LAST
Scope and Content Note: “It took ten years to establish our credentials as the progressive party, taking over where the La Follettes left off.” Anecdote about going to New London for a breakfast meeting to which many people were invited. Only one couple showed up. During the rest of the day Nelson kept running into people who claimed to be secret Democrats. One small businessman told Nelson the bank would deny him his next loan if he had showed up for the break-fast. When leafletting at the local papermill, “about half the workers would look at it and see 'Democrat' and throw it on the ground. So afterwards Jimmie Wimmer and I would go around picking up our literature and wiping the dust off it to pass out some place else.... It wasn't popular to be a Democrat and it turned around when the Democrats established their credentials as progressives.... It took that long just to build up. Then, of course, we developed a lot of good candidates.”
Tape/Side   52/2
Time   38:20
NELSON'S SUCCESS AS GOVERNOR, EVEN WITH A REPUBLICAN LEGISLATURE
Scope and Content Note: “For one thing, I had served in the legislature for ten years.... I knew everybody and I was a good friend to lots of Republicans.... So I had lots of Republicans who were friends who, although they played some very tough partisan politics, at least could be reasoned with.” Nelson attacked the Republicans as “caretakers” who had “swept under the rug” problems that had been around for years. “So I was making proposals that were good proposals and to vote'm all down would put them in trouble.”
Tape/Side   52/2
Time   40:10
GETTING HIS APPOINTMENTS THROUGH THE REPUBLICAN SENATE
Scope and Content Note: The Republicans felt Nelson's election was an accident and that a Republican administration would win in 1960. They had a caucus and determined not to comfirm any of Nelson's appointments. Assemblyman Earl Leverich, then a Republican, but previously a Progressive, told Nelson about this plan. In order to deal with that Nelson appointed people who were in positions that various Republicans simply could not vote against, thereby undermining the Republican strategy. “I made a whole series of appointments which were good appointments, but they had as their purpose to put the Republicans in a bind. Finally Earl Leverich came into my office and said, 'They're having a tough time down there in the caucus because a couple of the Republicans are saying, “I can't vote against this fellow” and somebody else is saying, “I can't vote against him”' and pretty soon the whole thing fell apart.”
Tape/Side   52/2
Time   45:05
THE SALES TAX ISSUE
Scope and Content Note: Nelson had stated his opposition to the sales tax once or twice during his campaign. He felt he could not afford, politically, to pass any kind of tax increase during his first term. “The Democratic Party was dead against it. But we faced a situation that we had to have the money.... I proposed an income tax proposal. The Republicans refused to go along. They passed a sales tax. I vetoed it. So we went through all the exercise. And then I had a blue ribbon tax committee headed up by Harold Groves.” The Republicans demanded to see his tax plan before the 1960 election. Nelson arranged with the tax committee to stall until after the election. After the election the fight continued in the legislature. Finally worked out a compromise--limited sales tax, withholding of income taxes, and use of sales tax revenue to relieve the property tax, which was even more regressive. Throughout the state, after passage of the sales tax, proprietors and clerks would say to customers, “And three cents for Gaylord.” “It was just really knocking the hell out of me.” Anecdote about a trip north of Chippewa Falls with Louis Hanson. Stopped for a beer “and the bartender said, And three cents for Gaylord. And I reached right in his hand and I said, Thank you very much, I'm Gaylord.” The embarassed bartender bought the next two rounds of beer. Nelson in 1962 was running for U.S. senator with the burden of the sales tax, plus his attorney general, John Reynolds, running for governor and “repudiating my tax.” The sales tax went into effect in February 1962; but by November the issue had faded away and Nelson was elected to the senate. “If they'd held the election any time between February and August, I'd have gotten beat on that issue alone.”
Tape/Side   52/2
Time   52:25
DECISION TO RUN FOR THE U.S. SENATE: ACHIEVEMENTS AS GOVERNOR
Scope and Content Note: Decided to run for the senate because “number one, I had achieved about everything I could get done.” Had proposed nearly all of the things he had thought about as a member of the legislature reorganization of state government, reformation of the tax system, increasing of university salaries by twenty-four percent, the “ORAP” bill (a one cent tax on cigarettes to purchase wildlife habitat), a five million dollar student loan program, a big building program on the university campuses, reorganization of the county forest law. “I think I got about ninety percent of what I had in mind during that four years. So should I run for reelection which would have,...I think at that time been a more certain shot than beating the incumbent Wiley? But so, I'd spend two years there and have very little more that I could achieve that I'd had in mind anyway and then be out of politics.” Anecdote about John Reynolds, who was interested in running for the senate, asking Nelson about it and finding out that Nelson wanted to run for it himself.
Tape/Side   52/2
Time   54:35
DEFEAT OF WILEY IN 1962
Scope and Content Note: By 1962, Nelson was better known than Wiley because in general the governor is better known than the senator. Wiley did not run a very good campaign. “He was a kind of a friendly, gentle, pleasant bumbler.” He did not use media well. As the ranking Republican on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Wiley was called to Washington during the Cuban Missle Crisis in October. He received lots of good publicity for that, but “he gets out there and he decides thathe was doing so badly--or his people did anyway--in his campaigning that he'd stay there for a while.” Nelson made much of this. Then Wiley returned to Wisconsin and campaigned “away from the press, mostly out in the rural areas.... His time had passed him by; so that helped anyway.”
Tape/Side   52/2
Time   58:10
END OF TAPE 52, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   53/1
Time   00:25
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   53/1
Time   01:15
DEMOCRATIC PARTY FACTIONALISM IN THE 1950s; THE NELSON-LUCEY SPLIT
Scope and Content Note: Everyone was a New Deal Democrat, so there were no significant philosophical differences. “Lucey's method of management was that if you weren't all out on his side--sort of the Kennedy concept, anybody that wasn't on their side to knock'm off one way or the other. That was not the philosophy of anybody else prior to that. So there was a Lucey clique. And that group was fighting me on the sales tax.” At the time of Nelson's election as governor, Lucey told him, “'If you are not satisfied with me as state chairman, I'd get out.' Well, there was a lot of stuff going on within the party I wasn't happy with and I asked him to get out and he wouldn't do it.” Nelson then got Frank Nikolay to run against Lucey for party chair, but Nikolay's National Guard unit was called up, thereby preventing his candidacy. When President Kennedy came to speak in Wisconsin “by every standard tradition in he world the governor introduces the president when he comes to speak. And I intended to introduce him. Pat says, 'No, I'm going to introduce him.' Well, I could have raised a great big fuss and embarassed everybody, but I wasn't about to do that. But it was quite presumptious of the state chairman to insist that he introduce it when the governor is present.” Nelson's theory was to try to win over opposition rather than to fight with them. Anecdote about an internal fight on the Administrative Committee in which a postmaster who owed his job to Nelson took Lucey's side. Nelson asked him why, and the fellow answered, “Lucey would never forget me; he'd get me; and I knew you wouldn't.” One of Nelson's complaints about how the party was being run was that it did not raise any money for his campaign. Towards the end of the campaign Nelson visited Bruno Bitker to get some money for television spots, and Bitker said Lucey had been in the day previous raising money to pay the party campaign debt. “So here you have the state chairman--I'm running for governor and he's written me off and is raising money to pay off the debt before the election. Well I considered that pretty outrageous. No other party in the United States would do that.... That was sabotaging my campaign.”
Tape/Side   53/1
Time   08:25
DECLINE OF THE PARTY'S IMPORTANCE AS ITS CANDIDATES BEGAN TO WIN OFFICE
Scope and Content Note: The party ought to get stronger once it wins the governorship. One of the reasons it did not is because the governor has very little patronage. Because it was a volunteer organization, it was not always easy to replace leadership with the same quality of people. Another thing that has happened is that legislators played less and less of a role in forming the party's platform. “Elected officials who had an honest-to-God constituency were the people who were the most influential in designing the platform” in the party's early years. By 1968, when Nelson was running for reelection, “they had provisions in that '68 platform...that you couldn't run on politically. They were designed by people who have no constituency, except each other. And they were putting stuff in the platform that would be totally unacceptable to the public. So, I can still remember being asked about the '68 platform--I was running for reelection. I said, 'I'll be damned if I know. I haven't read it. I quit reading platforms a long time ago. I've got a record. I run on my own record and that's it.' ...Because I wasn't going to repudiate the platform. I wasn't going to endorse it, because I couldn't do either.... What's happened is that the elected officials with...their own constituency have been kind of effectively driven out of the process.” The same is true on the national level. All the interest groups push for the most extreme positions they represent and this results in a platform that cannot appeal to a broader public. “So I think it became a disaster.”
Tape/Side   53/1
Time   14:25
NELSON'S PLAN FOR REFORMING THE PRESIDENTIAL PRIMARY SYSTEM
Scope and Content Note: Currently it takes too much time and money to receive a presidential nomination. Should get rid of all but about eight primaries, randomly selected but representative of geography and state size. Do not announce which states will have primaries until March 1 and then have the primary elections in April.
Tape/Side   53/1
Time   16:25
NELSON DOWNPLAYS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE SPLITS IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN WISCONSIN CAUSED BY THE 1960 PRESIDENTIAL PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: He endorsed no one, although he leaned toward Hubert Humphrey. An endorsement would have done his reelection bid no good. Nelson served as arbitrator of the various campaigns.
Tape/Side   53/1
Time   19:00
NELSON'S PROUDEST ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS U.S. SENATOR
Scope and Content Note: His opposition to the Vietnam War. Creation of “Earth Day” in 1970. He organized “Earth Day” because he realized the politicians were way behind the public in their concern for the environment, and this “helped escalate the issue and brought it into the political dialogue.” Getting the Apostles Islands into the national park system and the St. Croix and Namekagon Rivers into the wild rivers system.
Tape/Side   53/1
Time   23:30
DISAPPOINTMENTS AS U.S. SENATOR
Scope and Content Note: Would like to have accomplished more reforms in the field of prescription drugs. Would like to have accomplished more for small businesses. “I think we've overlooked entrepreneurship in this country and addressed ourselves to the big corporations and their problems rather than to the entrepreneur who hires three or four or five or fifty or a hundred or two hundred employees. That's the cutting edge of the system.”
Tape/Side   53/1
Time   24:55
MORE ON ACCOMPLISHMENTS
Scope and Content Note: “Basically I don't have any real complaints about it.” Involved in passage of legislation on Manpower, Youth Camps, Job Corps, Teacher Corps.
Tape/Side   53/1
Time   25:40
NELSON'S DEFEAT IN 1980
Scope and Content Note: “I don't think I ran a very good campaign for one thing.” Also, the mood of the country was very bad. Iran. Inflation. “Any reasonable campaign would have beat me in 1980. Although, I must say, even given what we could have done, I didn't do a very good job in that campaign.” Anecdote about AFL-CIO election organizers in Wisconsin telling him that the union membership liked Nelson but did not want to hear about President Carter.
Tape/Side   53/1
Time   28:40
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/54-56
Subseries: Robert Lewis, 1985 March 26
Note: Access online.
Tape/Side   54/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   54/1
Time   00:30
BIOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Born in Montana, June 5, 1919. Parents homesteaded 320 acres each. Father had come from Pigeon Falls, Wisconsin, and mother from near Stillwater, Minnesota. They went broke during the depression following World War I and returned to the Lewis family farm in Pigeon Falls. Bob attended Pigeon Falls public schools and Whitehall high school. Mother's parents came from Sweden; father's from Norway. Father's mother's father was a Lutheran minister, a Haugist. (At this point in the interview Lewis read from an article written by Frederick Schultz, “Norwegian Influence on the Upper Midwest.” The article explains the beliefs of Hans Hauge, a Norwegian Lutheran reformer, which “were the views that I was imbued with as a child and that affected my political ideas.” He did not know about Hauge, however, until recent years.) Some-time during high school decided he wanted to be a journalist. Father was vice president of the Farmers Union in Wisconsin. Father, in the winters of 1933-34 and 1934-35, went to Washington, D.C., as part of the Farmers Union's Northwest Legislative Committee, to lobby for farm relief. While in Washington, he got involved in the Rural Electrification movement. Returned to Wisconsin and began organizing Rural Electrification Association (REA) cooperatives. Appointed by Phil La Follette to chair the Rural Electrification Coordination Committee. Father then hired by REA as a field man to organize cooperatives thgoughout the country; worked for REA until his death. Since his father was on the road, he farmed the family farm for two years prior to going to the University of Wisconsin-Madison.
Tape/Side   54/1
Time   13:55
COLLEGE YEARS
Scope and Content Note: “I went off to college (in 1938) determined to work on the Daily Cardinal.” Had read the Capital Times about the Daily Cardinal strike. Became editor of the Cardinal his senior year. “The Cardinal editor had a great deal of weight on the campus. We were completely independent in those days ...no subsidies at all.” His year as editor was the last year without any subsidies. “We even made a little money.” He was paid twenty-five dollars a month and a one hundred fifty dollar bonus at the end of the year. Member of the Young Progressives Club. Member of the University League for Liberal Action, which was infiltrated by Communists. There was an effort to disaffiliate from the American Student Union, “which had become identified as a Communist organization.” The Young Progressives opposed disaffiliation. “Also, in 1940 the campus was shocked to learn that a 'Wilkie for President Club' was being formed. This took us all by surprise. We just couldn't imagine that there were any Republicans on the campus. And the president of the 'Wilkie for President Club' was a college orator, who had not attracted much attention ouside of oratorical circles, named Henry Maier.” In response, the liberals organized a “Roosevelt for President” Club and Lewis was elected its president. Belonged toga housing cooperative and an eating cooperative. President of a Farmers Union student local.
Tape/Side   54/1
Time   20:35
ACTIVITIES OF THE YOUNG PROGRESSIVES CLUB
Scope and Content Note: Issues committees and election activities committees. Worked on one committee with a young woman who's father was a stalwart Republican state senator. Speakers.
Tape/Side   54/1
Time   21:30
1938 FOUNDING CONVENTION OF THE NATIONAL PROGRESSIVES OF AMERICA
Scope and Content Note: He was not in attendence, but his aunt, Agnes Thorston, for many years “the secretary and actual engine of the Trempealeau County Farmers Union, was there.” She and Bob's father had been active in the Farmer- Labor- Progressive- Federation, “and these people inclined to be a little skeptical of Phil La Follette.” Phil was too flamboyant and domineering.
Tape/Side   54/1
Time   23:55
MILITARY SERVICE
Scope and Content Note: Graduated on his birthday, June 5; got married on June 6; went off to the army on July 15, 1942. Wanted to get into the air force. Wanted to be non-infantry officer. “I was rejected for all of the officer things that I applied for.” Applied to the Royal Canadian Air Force and “I even applied to the Chinese, the Nationalist Chinese Air Force, and was turned down. So I was drafted. Physically unfit to be an officer.... Over bite. The doctors couldn't explain why that was disabling.” “Out of all of my college friends, I'm about the only one that ever heard a shot fired in anger.” Became an infantry officer and went through a year of combat in Europe. Discharged in late 1945.
Tape/Side   54/1
Time   26:35
MORE ON COLLEGE POLITICS
Scope and Content Note: Almost everyone was a supporter of Franklin Roosevelt. Communists were very active on campus. Young Communists handbilled against Lewis once because of something he had written as editor of the Cardinal. The big issue on campus was whether to intervene in World War II. He had been very sympathetic to the Spanish Loyalist cause.
Tape/Side   54/1
Time   28:25
END OF TAPE 54, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   54/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   54/2
Time   00:30
MORE ON COLLEGE POLITICS
Scope and Content Note: All of his friends had supported the Loyalist cause in Spain. “It was an era when political ideas were very much wide open.... One of the outstanding things, it seems to me, in my record in politics in the University was that...sometime in November (1941), just before Pearl Harbor,...I wrote an editorial in favor of intervention, intervening on the side of the allies.” Most of the other Young Progressives were still opposed to intervention, with the exception of John Lawton and Ery Bruner. Those two had quite a bit of influence on Lewis in regard to writing the editorial.
Tape/Side   54/2
Time   05:10
MORE ON COLLEGE YEARS
Scope and Content Note: “It was a very exciting time. And it was also a formative time for our generation.” Lewis had been a prolific reader as a youth. Read the local library's entire run of National Geographic. Would read two or three books a week while in high school. “All of us were finding each other, a new generation, having come out of our respective ghettos.” He purposely sought out Jews and Catholics and others, “making a self-conscious choice against racial bigotry and religious prejudice.... And I think my peers were doing the same thing.”
Tape/Side   54/2
Time   09:15
LEWIS' ELECTION AS EDITOR OF THE DAILY CARDINAL
Scope and Content Note: “By the time I was finally elected, all the competitors had fallen by the wayside.” The Badger Party was the campus party of independents, those who were liberal and not affiliated with a fraternity or sorority. All five members of the Cardinal Board, which elected the editor, were members of the Badger Party. “What really happened is that I just worked night and day, a workaholic.” By so doing he placed himself in a position where he was the only real candidate to become editor.
Tape/Side   54/2
Time   10:50
ANECDOTE ABOUT HIS FATHER'S OFFER TO SET HIM UP IN FARMING AS WORLD WAR II APPROACHED
Scope and Content Note: This would have exempted him from military duty. “I said, 'I know there's a war coming. I don't know whether I believe in it or not. But I want to be a part of my generation's experience.”
Tape/Side   54/2
Time   12:10
BIOGRAPHY UPON RETURN FROM WORLD WAR II
Scope and Content Note: His aunt was running the family farm. “I was too ambitious to get into politics and to change the world.” Regrets he did not use the G.I. Bill to get a law degree. Got a job with the Farmers Union. Felt he could not run for elective office unless he first organized “a popular movement of farmers and workers.” The Farmers Union job did not work out for several reasons. So, he got a job in Madison working for the Wisconsin REA News.
Tape/Side   54/2
Time   14:45
FIRST INVOLVEMENT IN DEMOCRATIC POLITICS
Scope and Content Note: As early as 1945, he had made up his mind in favor of the Democratic Party. Bob Tehan and Charles Greene wanted him to run for Congress in the ninth district in 1946. Financially he could not afford to run. After voting for Bob La Follette in the 1946 primary, he got a leave of absence from his job with REA News and campaigned for Howard McMurray in the ninth district. Had only been working for the REA News for about a week. Bill Owen, who later became a Republican but who was a Progressive, was president of the Wisconsin REA and permitted Lewis the leave of absence to campaign for McMurray. McMurray was able to pay him what he would have earned with the REA.
Tape/Side   54/2
Time   18:55
1946 PROGRESSIVE PARTY CONVENTION
Scope and Content Note: Lewis was a delegate from Trempealeau County. Made a speech at the convention which received a lot of publicity in the Milwuakee Journal, saying “that the Progressives should join the party of Henry Wallace and Franklin Roosevelt. And we lost. We carried the day up until the end of the day when Bob La Follette addressed the convention and said that he wished to run in the Republican primary.” Lewis thinks the Progressives would have joined the Democrats, but for La Follette's wishes. Most of the young people at the convention were leaning toward the Democratic Party. “Most of us young people, young Progressives, did not join the Republican Party. We went en bloc into the Democratic Party. And that's when the DOC started.” Lewis voted a straight Democratic ticket in the general election of 1946, after voting in the Republican primary.
Tape/Side   54/2
Time   21:40
LEWIS' “FIRST POLITICAL CAMPAIGN” WAS IN 1928, AT AGE NINE
Scope and Content Note: “I smashed my dinner pail on the head of a little Norwegian bigot, who was our next door neighbor, who said that, if Al Smith got elected, the Pope would have a tunnel under the ocean to the White House.” Lewis' father was for Al Smith, probably the only Norwegian in the school district who was. Lewis did not really understand what his neighbor was saying, but he “knew that that was a nasty crack.”
Tape/Side   54/2
Time   22:20
WORLD WAR I PACIFISM
Scope and Content Note: His parents had voted for Woodrow Wilson because they were anti- war. His mother resented the fact that Wilson did not continue to keep America out of World War I. Norwegians generally were anti-war. La Follette's real strength after World War I came from Germans who had not necessarily supported him before the War.
Tape/Side   54/2
Time   24:35
ANECDOTE ABOUT HIS FATHER BEING AN EARLY SUPPORTER OF FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT
Scope and Content Note: Thought more in terms of liberals or progressives versus conservatives rather than of particular parties.
Tape/Side   54/2
Time   26:25
END OF TAPE 54, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   55/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   55/1
Time   00:30
DELEGATES TO THE 1946 PROGRESSIVE PARTY CONVENTION WHO FAVORED GOING INTO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: People from Milwaukee, Racine, Kenosha. People from the labor movement. Lewis did not know many people at the convention. Almost none of his college friends were there.
Tape/Side   55/1
Time   03:50
DECLINE OF THE PROGRESSIVE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: The German ethnic support “unravelled.” By World War II Germans in Wisconsin considered themselves Americans. Also, some Progressives got quite conservative after the War. Importance of German ethnicity in American history. Also, Roosevelt had quite a pull on the young Progressives.
Tape/Side   55/1
Time   07:45
BY THE TIME OF THE 1946 PROGRESSIVE CONVENTION, LEWIS CONSIDERED HIMSELF A DEMOCRAT
Scope and Content Note: Was considering running for Congress as a Democrat. Was being wooed by Tehan and Greene and later Dan Hoan.
Tape/Side   55/1
Time   09:10
LEWIS' JOB WITH THE REA
Scope and Content Note: Started as the assistant to the editor, but the editor soon moved up to become director of public relations and Lewis became editor. Later Lewis became director of public relations.
Tape/Side   55/1
Time   10:10
POLITICS OF REA LEADERSHIP, LATE 1940s
Scope and Content Note: They had all been progressives, with a small “p” and a capital “P”. Orland Loomis had been an REA attorney. They were trying, as an organization, to remain nonpartisan. “I never quite knew where I stood.” Lewis wrote speeches and wrote thefarm planks for the Democrats. Was a member of the American Veterans Committee, with all the young Democrats. In (1949) the president of the Baron County REA, John Olson, ran in a special election for state senator as a Democrat. “Startling.” Lewis and Floyd Wheeler “did all his publicity.” He won. Norris Maloney, REA attorney and lobbyist, complained that Lewis was being too partisan; that this hindered his lobbying. After the 1948 election, Lewis by analyzing the vote at the precinct level, wrote an article showing how farmers in Wisconsin had voted for Truman, indeed elected him in Wisconsin. Lewis ran the story with a banner headline in REA News and expected to be reprimanded at the following board meeting. To his surprise, he was praised from unexpected sources. “And everybody agreed, the whole board; there wasn't a peep.” In 1948, Earl Stoneman, president of the Dairyland Power Cooperative, ran for Secretary of State as a Democrat. Turns out the leadership were New Dealers and to that extent Democrats. “So these people were declaring themselves in a very gradual way. I think actually they were in support of the formation of the New Deal as a political party, called Democratic Party.”
Tape/Side   55/1
Time   20:50
LEWIS, BECAUSE OF HIS POSITION WITH THE REA, COULD NOT TAKE A PUBLIC POSITION WITH THE DOC
Scope and Content Note: Attended private meetings and conventions. Did a lot of work for Horace Wilkie's congressional campaign in 1948. He worked on issues and supplied names, but did not attend meetings at which local DOC units were organized.
Tape/Side   55/1
Time   23:25
LEWIS ATTEMPTED TO WORK WITH LABOR AND COOPERATIVES TO SMOOTH THE TENSIONS GROWING OUT OF UNION ATTEMPTS TO ORGANIZE COOPERATIVES
Scope and Content Note: Norris Maloney “blew his stack.” Maloney wanted to take a hard line against union organization and Lewis “was trying to figure out some way where we could get these two liberal movements to work together in a cooperative way, non-confrontational. I believe in unions.” By the time Lewis went to Washington to work for the REA on the national level, the head of the National Rural Electric Cooperative Associaiton, Clyde Ellis, was in agreement with Lewis and they formed the Electric Consumers Information Committee, “which had as its primary purpose of bringing the union leadership and the co-ops together with the Farmers Union to get a kind of a farmer-labor political lobbying activity going.”
Tape/Side   55/1
Time   26:55
LEWIS WAS THE EXPERT IN WISCONSIN ON THE BRANNAN PLAN
Tape/Side   55/1
Time   27:40
IN 1949 LEWIS DIRECTED THE CHRISTIAN RURAL OVERSEAS PROGRAM IN WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: “The first statewide activity of any kind that got Catholics and Lutherans and Protestants together on a coordinated, unified campaign. That was the Friendship Train.” Went on half time with the REA in order to do this. Raised over $200,000.
Tape/Side   55/1
Time   28:45
END OF TAPE 55, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   55/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   55/2
Time   00:30
ELECTED AS A DEMOCRATIC PRECINCT COMMITTEEMAN IN 1947
Tape/Side   55/2
Time   01:30
FOUNDING CONVENTION OF THE DOC, 1949
Scope and Content Note: Not much of a farmer presence. Farm organizations' leaders did not get involved in party politics as much as the labor unions.
Tape/Side   55/2
Time   03:00
LEWIS ALMOST RAN FOR CONGRESS IN THE NINTH DISTRICT SPECIAL ELECTION IN 1953
Scope and Content Note: He was in Washington at the time and was emotionally depressed at the time. There was a meeting to discuss candidates in Black River Falls, but his wife was pregnant and overdue; so he did not go to the meeting. He had been promised support and $5000 immediately by the Committee for an Effective Congress if he would run. He was working for the Farmers Union and its president had agreed to permit him a leave of absence. Later Lester Johnson, who won the election, told Lewis that he would have supported him for Congress and not run himself. “I should have done it. That was my one break.” Did not stump for Lester Johnson, but provided him material and names. The farmers elected Johnson and reelected him “time and time again.”
Tape/Side   55/2
Time   07:30
MORE ON THE LACK OF FARMERS TAKING ACTIVE ROLES IN PARTY POLITICS
Scope and Content Note: Usually farmers would be able to engage in one major activity outside farming and no more. Professional people simply had more time to engage in politics. “Farmers in those days didn't feel comfortable in that kind of arena.”
Tape/Side   55/2
Time   09:20
1950 DEMOCRATIC U.S. SENATE PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Democrats were surprised at their successes in 1948 and that accounted for the interest in the 1950 U.S. Senate race. Lewis very involved in the William Sanderson campaign. Sanderson was an old Farmers Union friend of Lewis' father. Sanderson was secretary of and one of the main people behind the creation of the Farmers Union Central Exchange. Democratic leadership recruited Sanderson to run on the assumption that he could get labor support and mobilize the farmers. “And Bill Sanderson felt, and I feel, he was double crossed by some of the people who had talked him into declaring himself. That meant cutting some bridges for him too.” Drove several young Democratic leaders to a meeting in Milwaukee. These people had been Sanderson supporters but were secretly trying to convince Tom Fairchild to run. He felt a Sanderson candidacy was a good way to bring the farm supply cooperatives and the REAs actively into the Democratic Party. Dairy cooperatives were more conservative and more Republican. Official labor--the AFL--supported Sanderson in the primary, but many younger people in the labor movement, who felt AFL state leader George Haberman was too conservative, did not support Sanderson. “That was the beginning of the Democrats in Wisconsin becoming less a party of organized people and movements, a coalition of movements like the old Farmer- Labor- Progressive Federation had tried to be..., and (more) a party of candidates, personalities.” Bill Proxmire is a prime example; has a personal following but has not used that to help build the party. Hubert Humphrey was the opposite. Miles McMillin is one Democrat who had recruited Sanderson and then switched to Fairchild. “I remember coming back from that meeting. I felt, you know, I'd been had.” Felt these people would have at least given him some warning. “I'm not a very good politician.” Dan Hoan's candidacy “was a surprise and a disappointment.” Lavvy Dilweg “wasn't very active...in building the party. He was just a politician that saw a possibility.... I consider that 1950 campaign a kind of a fiasco.”
Tape/Side   55/2
Time   23:55
LEWIS MOVED TO WASHINGTON, D.C., IN NOVEMBER, 1951, BUT MAINTAINED WISCONSIN AS HIS LEGAL RESIDENCE FOR MANY YEARS
Tape/Side   55/2
Time   25:00
THE McCARTHY RECORD AND “ALUMNI AGAINST McCARTHY”
Scope and Content Note: Lewis was involved in a small meeting with Jim Doyle, Morris Rubin, Horace Wilkie, and Carl Runge at the Capitol Hotel at which the seeds for The Progressive's special edition, The McCarthy Record, were sown. Later, Lewis was involved in the Washington area with a group known as “Alumni Against McCarthy.” Its purpose was to raise money for a campaign against McCarthy. In order to avoid the charge of being carpetbaggers, they used their common connection to the University of Wisconsin.
Tape/Side   55/2
Time   27:45
END OF TAPE 55, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   56/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   56/1
Time   00:30
1952 SENATE RACE
Scope and Content Note: Lewis was not in Wisconsin and was not much involved. Had forgotten (until reminded here) of his role in arbitrating between the potential candidacies of Jim Doyle and Gaylord Nelson.
Tape/Side   56/1
Time   04:25
“JOE MUST GO” MOVEMENT
Scope and Content Note: LeRoy Gore came to Washington looking for support for the movement and looked up Lewis as one of his first contacts. Lewis helped raise funds for the effort.
Tape/Side   56/1
Time   05:25
LEWIS AS AGRICULTURAL ADVISOR TO GOVERNOR NELSON AND AS SENATOR PROXMIRE'S ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT
Scope and Content Note: “Wisconsin has a situation which then was even worse more so than it is now. The Governor had practically no power to administer the government.” The director of the Department of Agriculture was elected by a board which was composed of citizens appointed for six year terms, thereby making it virtually impossible for a first term governor to have significant input into the selection of the director. “They picked their own director, not the governor's director.” Prior to going to work for the Nelson administration, Lewis had been Proxmire's administrative assistant, right after his first election in 1957. “We campaigned. I never worked so hard in my life.... Campaigned very hard; from the day Proxmire hit town, he was running for the general election seventeen months later.” Jack Kyle, head of the Wisconsin Association of Cooperatives, lobbied very hard with Nelson to have him “bring me back to Wisconsin to do something with the farm program.” Lewis worked very hard on a marketing order bill, 810A, modeled after a law in California. Every farm organization in the state, except the Farm Bureau, endorsed it. It passed the assembly, but was killed by the Republican majority in the senate. A small portion of it eventually became law--the dairy checkoff plan whereby a certain amount is used for promotion of dairy products.
Tape/Side   56/1
Time   10:10
HEADED “FARMERS FOR KENNEDY-JOHNSON” IN 1960 AND THEN JOINED THE KENNEDY ADMINISTRATION
Scope and Content Note: “The Wisconsin dairy supply marketing program became the Kennedy administration's dairy policy. We tried to get that passed nationally, and failed.” Neither the dairy farmers nor Congress were ready for it.
Tape/Side   56/1
Time   11:10
THE LEWIS-NELSON FARM PLAN (810A)
Scope and Content Note: “It provided that farmers could put together a pretty comprehensive marketing order program for commodity by commodity.... It's a way whereby the government can lend its authority to a group of farmers, under government supervision.” Basically an effort to rationalize the market. Got real good support from the Beekeepers' Association, mainly in regard to eradicating a disease which was fatal to bees. “It was the marketing orders that made California agriculture boom the way it did.” “It was a way to try to get a lot of the benefits of a cooperative maketing program applied from the top down with the authority of the state, to get the entire industry to cooperate, including the one-third that might vote against it, the free riders who were the bane of cooperative marketing.”
Tape/Side   56/1
Time   16:55
MORE ON LEWIS' WORK AS PROXMIRE'S ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT
Scope and Content Note: Resigned from his job with the Farmers Union to work for Proxmire. “It was an enormous burden of answering mail and organizing letter-writing and things like that. And the legislative work, developing issues.... It was standard, but high intensity senatorial staff work. I was in charge of the staff. Learned a lot that I'd thought I already knew.”
Tape/Side   56/1
Time   18:20
LEWIS' WORK IN THE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE DURING THE KENNEDY-JOHNSON ADMINISTRATION
Scope and Content Note: Worked in the department for seven years and seven days. Was offered the position of administrator of the REA. “My father was dead by then, but.... If he had been alive, it would have been a marvelous thing for his boy to have gotten to be the top man of REA. But I felt that-the farm issue, the commodity issue, was the big thing. That's where the farmer's income was. And I felt that the REA program had done its pioneering work.” Lewis wanted to be the assistant secretary in charge of commodities, but that position had already been promised to someone else. So secretary of agriculture Orville Freeman made him deputy administrator of the Agricultural Stabilization and Conservation Service. “'Here's where the hanky-panky goes on,' he said, 'and I want you there. I want you, because I trust you.'” “My responsibility was the program formulation for all the commodities.” Lewis had seven or eight divisions under him, which he felt exceeded the capacity of any administrator. Lewis sought to get dairy policy all under one roof, his. He was successful in getting both the price support program and the milk order program under him. The Billy Sol Estes case broke and the scandals were in the sections of two other deputy administrators. Anecdote about a Jefferson-Jackson Day Dinner, one hundred dollars a ticket. A couple days before the dinner someone came by offering tickets to people; Lewis had already purchased his tickets; turns out the tickets being offered had been purchased by Billy Sol Estes. “But I had a lot of great experiences there. I was disappointed and somewhat bitter about not getting a presidential appointment.” Freeman did nominate him to be assistant secretary for commodity programs and foreign agriculture, “which is exactly what I wanted.” But President Johnson said he wanted a woman. “Then...I had a falling out with Freeman on basic farm policy. I was in favor of getting out of the business of paying farmers not to produce, and giving the stuff away, expand the “food for peace” program...and figure out how wecan build this into a paying market after concessional sales and so forth.” Freeman did not agree and told Lewis he had no future in terms of policy in the commodity programs. Freeman asked him to be the administrator of the Rural Community Development Service, “which was going to coordinate the poverty programs and that was going to be a big thing.”
Tape/Side   56/1
Time   27:50
END OF TAPE 56, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   56/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   56/2
Time   00:30
MORE ON LEWIS' WORK IN THE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE DURING THE KENNEDY-JOHNSON ADMINISTRATION
Scope and Content Note: A southern congressman thwarted funding for Lewis' poverty program work because it involved blacks planning their own programs. “So that program collapsed and then I decided to leave government.” Prior to his resignation he went to India to study the food aid program there for a couple months, “and that's where I got my credentials in the foreign field.” Had also been the delegate to the International Wheat Council.
Tape/Side   56/2
Time   03:50
BIOGRAPHY AFTER LEAVING THE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Scope and Content Note: Worked as a consultant for five years and “I talked the Farmers Union into starting the Farmers Union Milk Marketing Cooperative. And it didn't work.” So the head of the Farmers Union said, “'You got us into this; we're going to draft you to be the manager to make it work.'” He went to Wisconsin then to manage this for a couple years. Got it going and then was elected secretary of the Farmers Union, actually serving as the organization's chief economist. When a new president of the Farmers Union was elected, he and Lewis did not see eye to eye on many matters. Lewis now is a consultant and writes for foreign agricultural journals. “It's a hard way to make a living. It doesn't pay well.”
Tape/Side   56/2
Time   06:15
THE ROLE OF FARMER ORGANIZATIONS IN THE WISCONSIN DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: The “economic organizations” were weaker than they were in Minnesota. The Farmers Union in Minnesota was big and was not shy about using its “muscle.” Wisconsin Farmers Union was small. REAs were parochial in their interests; concentrated on electricity. Also the REAs got into nuclear power, which was not especially popular. Also, they started getting “utility-minded managers.” Got to be a big business. Another factor was the creation of the National Farmers Organization (NFO), “which was created because the Farmers Union failed.... The Farmers Union failed to develop economic programs. And they were too partisan, too committed to the Democrats.... And really let down the farmers. They didn't keep the Democrats' nose to the grindstone to deliver. These Democratic politicians, I wrote speeches for. The promises I put in their mouths, they didn't keep. And the farm programs have disintegrated.” Politicians only gave lip service to farmers. “So we got a politics not of popular movements, economic movements, but politics of personalities.” The NFO started out “a kind of a looney economic idea, which basically can't ever work.” But the NFO “had a great gift for motivating people and making politicians out of them.” With just a few people active, the NFO became influential. “With a much smaller membership, they were getting half the Democratic patronage, things like appointments to the state Board of Agriculture.” All the farmer organizations became too concerned about appointments, “and...the real steam went out of the economic movement.”
Tape/Side   56/2
Time   14:10
BAD INFLUENCE OF THE MEDIA ON POLITICS
Scope and Content Note: Because of television, people are no longer depending so much on community and economic leaders for political advice and leadership. “But now politics has gone over the heads of the leaders and the pundits, the press even. The president can overwhelm the editorial page by just putting on a kind of a show. And that's true of politics generally. Whereas in an earlier age, it meant something to have the support of the Farmers Union, for example, in a county.” “People don't listen to their movements any more.”
Tape/Side   56/2
Time   17:45
RETROSPECTIVE ANALYSIS OF THE WISCONSIN DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Has given good government to Wisconsin, much better than it was getting in the 1940s and 1950s. “I think we've served the state well.”
Tape/Side   56/2
Time   20:10
LEWIS FORESEES A NEW ERA SIMILAR TO THE NEW DEAL
Scope and Content Note: Current government of “short run expediency” will have to give way and the larger problems will have to be addressed. There are big social problems in many countries which are tied to agriculture. International environmental concerns. These problems cannot be solved through open economic competition. “We're going to have to learn how to govern ourselves a lot more effectively than we now do. And it's going to require more government, much, much more government than we've ever imagined.” The Democratic Party has the obligation to be out front taking on the hard issues. Hopes to write a book about America's food and agriculture policy. “So there is more need now than ever for the kind of party that we thought we were building in the '40s and the '50s in Wisconsin.”
Tape/Side   56/2
Time   25:55
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/57-58
Subseries: Warren Sawall, 1985 March 27
Note: Access online.
Tape/Side   57/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   57/1
Time   00:30
BIOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Grew up in the Upper Pennisula of Michigan. Parents not politically active. Graduated from high school in 1941. Attended Ripon College for two quarters and then entered the service. Fighter pilot with the Eighth Air Force in England. Shot down in February, 1945; three months in a prisoner of war camp. In that P.O.W. camp, “a lot of young men suddenly wondered what the hell all the fighting was about and why they were involved in this.” A lot of discussions in the P.O.W. camp about government. As a result, when he returned to school (UW-Madison) in January 1946, he majored in political science. Graduated in June 1948. Got a job as a reporter on the Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune. Forty dollars a week.
Tape/Side   57/1
Time   03:15
BREAK UP OF THE PROGRESSIVE PARTY LEFT PEOPLE SEARCHING FOR A POLITICAL HOME
Scope and Content Note: Jerry Fox and Bob Tehan encouraged them to make their home in the Democratic Party. Old Democrats mainly interested in patronage.
Tape/Side   57/1
Time   07:35
SAWALL'S POLITICS IN 1948
Scope and Content Note: Not very active, having just graduated and gotten a job as a reporter. In the precinct in which he lived, there were three votes cast for Norman Thomas for president--his, his wife's, and that of another reporter on the Daily Tribune.
Tape/Side   57/1
Time   08:00
1948 ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: Nelson, Ruth Doyle, Lucey and others put their names on the ballot, never expecting to win. Everyone encouraged by Carl Thompson's showing in the gubernatorial race.
Tape/Side   57/1
Time   08:50
HOW/WHY SAWALL GOT ACTIVE IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: “The appalling realization” that, outside Dane and Milwaukee, there were almost no Democratic candidates for county offices. Had been reading about the DOC.
Tape/Side   57/1
Time   09:50
BREAK UP OF THE PROGRESSIVE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Years later Sawall saw a picture of the 1946 convention delegates and “all of these men were older; there were very few young people in that group; these were all people fifty plus, no young people. So you could see that they weren't attracting youth and that was one of the reasons that they were going down.”
Tape/Side   57/1
Time   10:35
ORGANIZING A DOC UNIT IN WOOD COUNTY
Scope and Content Note: Contacted Milton Schneider and his wife Gloria. Then contacted people in Madison, and organized a meeting, which was chaired by Horace Wilkie. Chairman of the Wood County Democratic Party Statutory Committee was Clarence Mitten, from Marshfield. “We recognized that, if Mitten really wanted to go along with this, the logical and sensible thing to do to make it work right off the bat was to elect him the first chairman of the Wood County Democratic Organizing Committee.... That made it a lot easier to bring all these elements together.” County remained Republican for several years, however.
Tape/Side   57/1
Time   12:35
BALANCING HIS JOB AS A REPORTER AND HIS INVOLVEMENT IN THE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: He reported on political events and, in retrospect, feels there may wellhave been a conflict of interest. The paper made a point afterwards when hiring reporters to make sure it was understood that they were not to be active in partisan politics. For him, however, the management did not want to make an issue of it.
Tape/Side   57/1
Time   13:20
1949 DOC FOUNDING CONVENTION
Scope and Content Note: “It was pretty well understood that from then on the statutory organization would not control patronage. It would be the Democratic Organizing Committee.” Jerry Fox, chairman of the statutory party, was elected chair of the DOC and many county statutory chairs were elected to positions in the DOC. The Administrative Committee, which was elected at this convention, however, “was more DOC oriented than statutory committee oriented.” By a margin of one vote, Sawall was elected congressional district chairman, which provided him a seat on the Administrative Committee. “Of course, I was twenty-six years old, didn't have any money, didn't even have a car. I wasn't certain how I was going to do all that. My wife wasn't very happy with me.”
Tape/Side   57/1
Time   15:15
SAWALL BECOMES EDITOR OF THE WISCONSIN DEMOCRAT
Scope and Content Note: Was being published monthly, largely through the volunteer effort of Miles McMillin. Sawall was appointed to theeditorial board, which decided the work was too much for a volunteer. The editorial board then selected Sawall as the first paid editor, in May 1950. He moved to Madison. “That was an exciting year, 1950.”
Tape/Side   57/1
Time   16:45
1950 U.S. SENATE PRIMARY IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: That campaign “kind of typified all of these groups that were in the Democratic Party....” A farm and labor coalition, along with some Milwaukee Democrats like Andy Biemiller, put forth William Sanderson. Dilweg “was a traditional, statutory Democrat, rather conversative, really.” Hoan, of course, was formerly a Socialist. “Milwaukee Socialists are a breed unto themselves.... Almost all small businessmen, entrepreneurs, thinkers. They come from a heritage that is almost unbelieveably thoughtful, interested in good government; and that has marked Milwaukee...down through the years.” “This really was a very aggressive campaign among those four people with a lot of acrimony at times and a lot of friend-ships that were kind of split.” Examples of how various leaders in Madison split between Sanderson and Fairchild. Labor people wanted to run Fairchild for governor, put up a big “Fairchild for Governor” sign in the balcony at the convention. Fairchild supporters tore it down; “it almost came to fisticuffs.”
Tape/Side   57/1
Time   21:35
WISCONSIN DEMOCRAT DURING THE 1950 CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: A special issue. Front page covered the nominees for governor and U.S. senator. Page two was on the congressional and legislative candidates. The third page covered local candidates. Did forty editions of that issue in order to cover forty different counties. Charged the local organizations enough money “that we got the till filled up for the paper quite well.” Ivan Nestingen was very active and helpful in this effort. He came in every evening for several days to wrap the various editions up for bulk mailing to the counties. Then about one or two o'clock in the morning Sawall would run the bundles down to the post office. The other five pages in that campaign issue were devoted to issues. After Fairchild won the senatorial primary, the acrimony ended.
Tape/Side   57/1
Time   24:50
RESULTS OF THE 1950 ELECTION WERE DISAPPOINTING
Scope and Content Note: “I recall at the time saying, 'I can't see any way that an electorate as intelligent as Wisconsin is going to turn down Tom Fairchild for Alexander Wiley.' And Miles McMillin kept saying, 'Yeah. Well, He's been being elected since 1938 and I don't think you're necessarily right.' Well, Miles was right.... And that put us in kind of a doldrums, although we still looked forward to 1952....”
Tape/Side   57/1
Time   26:30
JOE McCARTHY
Scope and Content Note: “A great thing that kept the Democrats going in that period, I think was McCarthy. There was a united effort to turn him out of office.” Democratic “Truth Squad” followed McCarthy to LaCrosse--Miles McMillin, Gaylord Nelson, Bill Proxmire. Sawall handled the sound for their loudspeaker.
Tape/Side   57/1
Time   28:00
END OF TAPE 57, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   57/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   57/2
Time   00:30
1952 SENATORIAL ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: “By that time...the paper was not in good shape. The party was not in good shape financially.” Getting difficult to maintain an office staff. “We had a very wonderful executive secretary there named Fran Rose, who worked very hard for very little money to run that party.” Fairchild was reluctant to run. As candidacy filing time approached, “I remember Ery Bruner and others were working on Tom pretty hard.” Had to file the nomination papers on a Monday; he finally agreed to run on Friday. “Well, we got in cars and we went all over the state to get the proper number of nomination papers signed in the necessary counties.” Lucey took an active role in the Fairchild campaign. Sawall ran campaign headquarters. Sawall estimates the campaign spent only about $30,000. First campaign in which the Democrats used some television.
Tape/Side   57/2
Time   04:00
SAWALL BIOGRAPHY, 1952-1960
Scope and Content Note: After the 1952 election, the DOC had no money to continue him as editor. He got a job with a publisher of trade publications, December 1, 1952. Worked for this company in Madison and New York state. Returned to Madison in summer of 1954. Took a job in Ohio in the beginning of 1955. Worked for this company until 1960, when he returned to Wisconsin to work for the party, concentrating on the Kennedy campaign.
Tape/Side   57/2
Time   05:50
KENNEDY CAMPAIGN, 1960
Scope and Content Note: Worked under Patrick Lucey and K. Lemoyne Billings, Kennedy's Wisconsin campaign director. Fundraising. In October put on a one hundred dollar a ticket fundraiser in Milwaukee. Joint headquarters with Governor Nelson in Milwaukee.
Tape/Side   57/2
Time   07:10
SAWALL WENT TO WORK ON GOVERNOR NELSON'S STAFF IN APRIL 1961
Scope and Content Note: Worked for the party for about four months after the 1960 election; then joined Nelson's staff as an executive assistant--answering mail, attending meetings on the governor's behalf.
Tape/Side   57/2
Time   07:40
1962 CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: Worked on Nelson's campaign for the senate. Worked largely in Milwaukee with labor.
Tape/Side   57/2
Time   08:00
WORKED ON NELSON'S SENATORIAL STAFF UNTIL DECEMBER 1979
Scope and Content Note: Did a variety of things; wound up concentrating on agricultural issues, which led to his current position with the U.S. Department of Agriculture.
Tape/Side   57/2
Time   08:45
SAWALL BORN MAY 3, 1923
Tape/Side   57/2
Time   09:25
SAWALL'S VOTE FOR NORMAN THOMAS IN 1948 AND HIS ENTRY INTO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Considered himself a Democrat at the time, “but for a variety of reasons, I was unhappy with the Truman administration.” “A youthful protest vote.” Prior to 1948 pretty much considered himself an independent. What drove him into the Democratic Party was the new leadership which it was attracting and the one-sided county slates available in most counties. “I believed, if you were going to have a viable party or a viable opposition, it had to start at the local level; you had to do something about getting those people active at the local level and thinking of building a party there. And eventually that happened throughout the whole state.”
Tape/Side   57/2
Time   12:00
SAWALL'S INVOLVEMENT IN ORGANIZING LOCAL DOC UNITS OUTSIDE WOOD COUNTY
Scope and Content Note: Did some. Nine of the ten counties in his congressional district were organized by the time of the 1949 convention.
Tape/Side   57/2
Time   12:50
MILTON SCHNEIDER
Scope and Content Note: Originally from Milwaukee. Went to work for his father-in-law's wholesale plumbing supply business in Wisconsin Rapids. Had been a Democrat prior to 1948. Accidently ran into Schneider's wife, Gloria, when out shopping. The Schneiders had heard of the Sawalls and vice versa. Became friend's “and from there the political activism followed.”
Tape/Side   57/2
Time   14:30
POLITICAL ACTIVISM AT “BADGER VILLAGE” IN 1948
Scope and Content Note: “Badger Village” was a housing facility at Badger Ordnance Works, Baraboo, where 3000 veterans and their families lived, commuting daily to the UW campus in Madison. People there were disturbed by Bob La Follette's defeat in 1946 and “became alarmed” by MacArthur's presence in the 1948 Republican primary in Wisconsin. Rallied around Harold Stassen.
Tape/Side   57/2
Time   17:00
VOTED FOR LA FOLLETTE IN THE 1946 PRIMARY AND MCMURRAY IN THE GENERAL ELECTION
Tape/Side   57/2
Time   17:25
RELATIONSHIP OF MELVIN LAIRD AND GAYLORD NELSON
Scope and Content Note: “They had some wonderful debates” in the state senate. Would have tremendous debates on the floor of the legislature, which would carry over to the Park Hotel bar for all the partisans except Nelson and Laird who would retire to Nelson's apartment. “Laird and Nelson'd go over there and drink beer and laugh about all the trouble they'd caused.” Friendly antagonists. There was an informal group, involving some very distinguished Wisconsinites, 'and once a year, after Nelson came here, they had an outing that was quite a male outing. And I recall one time it ended up in Laird's suite at the Pentagon when he was Secretary of Defense, late at night.” Anecdote about the flight to Washington, D.C., after the 1968 election. Sawall, because the Nelson campaign had a little money left over, flew first class and so did Laird on the same flight. Proxmire was also on that flight, and Sawall and Laird watched him walk past to coach class. 'We had a delightful conversation on that trip.... He says, 'There are two things we have to do.... We got to get a Democrat in the cabinet and...we have to get out of Viet Nam.'”
Tape/Side   57/2
Time   23:15
WOOD COUNTY UNIONS WHICH WERE ACTIVE IN FORMING THE COUNTY DOC
Scope and Content Note: Paper mill unions. Machinsts. “That group was just waiting to get into the thing.' Anecdote about John Sullivan who was president of the central labor body. Sullivan was working on setting up the Wood County DOC, when Sawall saw a story listing Sullivan as a delegate to the Republican state convention. Sullivan denied it; Sawall wrote a story about it; and the local Republican leader screamed that Sawall was a political activist writing about politics. Sullivan had been elected a delegate without his consent. Even though Sullivan was a signed-up member of the Democratic party, the compromise used to cool the situation was denial that Sullivan was a member of either party.
Tape/Side   57/2
Time   26:20
OTHER WOOD COUNTY DOC ACTIVISTS
Scope and Content Note: The mayor of Wisconsin Rapids, although sub rosa since his was a non-partisan office. The city clerk, Nils Justeson, who ran as a Democrat for secretary of state in 1950; later became mayor of Wisconsin Rapids.
Tape/Side   57/2
Time   27:35
END OF TAPE 57, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   58/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   58/1
Time   00:30
DOC AND PATRONAGE
Scope and Content Note: A rather informal system of recommendations from the county DOC to the district DOC to the state chairman, who “had all of the input and said 'This is the way it will go.” Sawall was quite involved in postmastership patronage when he first came to Washington, working for Senator Nelson. Anecdote about a Marshfield post-mastership appointment. Nelson, Laird, and the community all agreed on the same person, but he was not a veteran and veteran points counted for a lot when taking the civil service exam. So, he was made acting postmaster and the exam was stalled until everyone assumed he was the postmaster; then the exam was given and he was the only one who took it. He died at an early age and the same process of stalling was used to insure that his wife succeeded him. Examples of patronage: after the 1950 election, Tom Fairchild became the U.S. attorney for the western district of Wisconsin, and he was followed in that job by Frank Nikolay.
Tape/Side   58/1
Time   04:50
HAVING JERRY FOX AS CHAIR OF BOTH THE DOC AND THE STATUTORY COMMITTEE EASED THE DOC INTO RECOGNITION AS THE PARTY IN WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: “The power very quickly moved over the other way. There were contests below the state level that weren't so easily solved, where old statutory people on congressional races and so forth wanted to throw their weight around. But it wasn't such a big problem because our problem at that point was getting good candidates, whether they were statutory people, so to speak, or voluntary people, to run for Congress in various places.” By the time Jim Doyle became DOC chair, the DOC “was the Democratic Party of Wisconsin and the statutory people recognized it.”
Tape/Side   58/1
Time   08:30
DOC FINANCES, circa 1950
Scope and Content Note: Contributions, some dinners. The Democrat “was kind of self-sustaining at that point.”
Tape/Side   58/1
Time   09:10
SAWALL AS EDITOR OF THE WISCONSIN DEMOCRAT
Scope and Content Note: A fulltime job during the 1950 campaign. Other times he would spend some of his time attending local meetings and trying to encourage activity, “kind of a semi-organizer too.” “Pretty complete” freedom in terms of editorial policy. Editorial board mainly concerned with financial matters. Paper was quoted elsewhere only twice and “yet people didn't like it.” Once was a story on the three major factions supporting different presidential candidates in 1952. Each faction thought the story was slanted against them. One woman was chewing Sawall out at a meeting and asked him who gave him authority to do the story; Jim Doyle spoke up saying he had, even though he had not. The other story listed people who had low-numbered license plates. Andy Biemiller, who had license number 5, “was furious with me.” “Anyway you were kind of hamstrung by that sort of thing. What you were supposed to do was not really be very interesting.” Paper used “a lot of stuff from the Democratic National Committee.” Also, McMillin and many others contributed materials. Fran Rose and Virginia Hart did not write for the paper, but “they were...two of the most sensational human beings I've ever worked with, both of them. Just dedicated, hardworking, bright.” Subscription to the paper was two dollars a year. Made money on the campaign issue because of bulk mailing and thousands of extra copies. Apparently he overcharged the counties on the campaign issue, but no one complained.
Tape/Side   58/1
Time   16:25
1968 CAMPAIGN TRAIN
Scope and Content Note: Took Sawall a year to organize this three day campaign train. It was for Nelson and gubernatorial candidate Bronson La Follette. Left Racine on a Friday morning and ended up in Madison on Sunday afternoon. Cost $18,000. Loaded the train with local candidates prior to pulling into each stop and took them back home prior to the next stop. Involved over thirty buses bringing in candidates and hauling away other candidates. Lunches, dinners, and big rallies. It worked so well and provided such good publicity for local candidates that the state Democratic Party decided to pick up the tab rather than having either the Nelson or La Follette campaigns pay for it.
Tape/Side   58/1
Time   20:35
DOC AS A MEMBERSHIP ORGANIZATION
Scope and Content Note: Anyone who would pay the one dollar membership fee had a right to attend meetings, speak, and vote. More democratically run than the Republican Voluntary Committee.
Tape/Side   58/1
Time   21:50
MORE ON 1950 CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: Sawall supported Fairchild, but kept a low profile because he was a party employee. Was more involved in the Thompson campaign.
Tape/Side   58/1
Time   23:35
FACTIONALISM IN THE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Based on issues and personalities. In Milwaukee some of it was based on the rivalry between the AFL and CIO Auto Workers.
Tape/Side   58/1
Time   25:40
AFTER PROXMIRE'S VICTORY IN THE 1957 SPECIAL ELECTION, THE REPUBLICAN LEGISLATURE HURRIEDLY CHANGED THE LAW SO THAT THE GOVERNOR COULD FILL U.S. SENATE SEAT VACANCIES BY APPOINTMENT
Scope and Content Note: The Democrats, with Proxmire's and Lester Johnson's victories, were demonstrating good strength in special elections. The Republicans were concerned about Alexander Wiley's advanced age, so they changed the law in the hope that they could keep his seat Republican should he die. To their surprise, a Democrat, Gaylord Nelson, was elected governor soon after changing the law.
Tape/Side   58/1
Time   26:50
INTERNAL POLITICS OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF WISCONSIN
Tape/Side   58/1
Time   28:00
END OF TAPE 58, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   58/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   58/2
Time   00:30
LUCEY-NELSON FEUD
Scope and Content Note: “When you're not actually winning elections, it's easier to be close together than when you start to win.” Before he left Wisconsin, the party was like “an enlarged family.” When Jean Lucey had one of her children while Pat was out of town, Gaylord Nelson got up at four in the morning to take her to the hospital. “When I came back that had disappeared.” Lucey and Nelson were no longer “close.” They had a different view of politics. Lucey felt the Connecticut Democratic Party was the right model; the party chair there made all the appointments, not the Governor. “Well, that isn't the Wisconsin tradition. And that isn't the Progressive tradition under which Gaylord Nelson was brought up.”
Tape/Side   58/2
Time   02:05
HOW NELSON WAS ABLE TO GET HIS APPOINTMENTS THROUGH THE REPUBLICAN STATE SENATE
Scope and Content Note: “...by balancing off the people he chose--from old Progressives, from this to that; where he broke down the Republican solidarity in the state senate and was able to make some incredible appointments.” John Reynolds, on the other hand, was too partisan in his appointments; this became a partial cause of his reelection defeat. Nelson put his appointments together as a package, with various people in the package that one Republican or another could not vote against.
Tape/Side   58/2
Time   03:40
NELSON LOST FIVE DAYS OF U.S. SENATE SENIORITY
Scope and Content Note: When elected to the senate, his term began January 3, 1963, but his term as governor did not end until January 8. The lieutenant governor and the state senate were Republican. “He didn't dare resign that office and take the senate seat on January 3 and let Warren Knowles and that state senate have five days. They'd have ramrodded through a whole bunch of Republican appointees and John Reynolds wouldn't have had anything to do.”
Tape/Side   58/2
Time   04:15
THE 1960 DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Lucey's view of how the party should be run “was part of the Kennedy thing.” There was a lot of pressure on Nelson to support Hubert Humphrey--labor people, liberal Democrats. Lucey pressured Nelson to support Kennedy. Nelson took a neutral stand. “A lot of animosity resulted from that situation.” “I'm saying, I was just kind of appalled that those friendships had dissolved.”
Tape/Side   58/2
Time   06:20
AFTER THE 1948 ELECTION, BOB TEHAN SAID IT WOULD TAKE TEN MORE YEARS TO ELECT A DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR IN WISCONSIN
Tape/Side   58/2
Time   07:05
DEMOCRATIC BREAKTHROUGH IN 1958
Scope and Content Note: Republican leadership had become “a little bit moribund” and the Democratic leadership was more dynamic, charismatic, and better at oratory. It took ten years because it required that much time to build the party at the local level.
Tape/Side   58/2
Time   08:30
TOM FAIRCHILD AND JIM DOYLE
Scope and Content Note: “It was a bad mistake, in terms of fundraising, that Fairchild waited so long to enter the 1952 senatorial primary. Tom Fairchild was one of the most outstanding men I've met. So Is Jim Doyle. Neither one of them's a good campaigner.” Fairchild had issued an opinion, as attorney general, which was very unpopular, only a couple months before the senate election, regarding radio giveaway shows. “I know that he was kind of urged not to make that announcement prior to the election. That's not Tom Fairchild's style. If something's in violation of the law, and he's the attorney general of the state, and it's his responsibility to act on that, he's going to act on it.” Doyle was the same way. He thought it was “unseemly” to have a car top sign on his car promoting his own candidacy when he ran in the 1954 gubernatorial primary.
Tape/Side   58/2
Time   11:15
MORE ON THE 1952 SENATORIAL PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Sawall and others felt very strongly about getting Fairchild into the campaign. “I just thought he was the viable candidate.” Pat Lucey managed the Fairchild campaign and Sawall ran the office. It was not within Fairchild's personality to run a campaign which involved personal attacks.
Tape/Side   58/2
Time   14:35
SAWALL WAS OUTSIDE OF WISCONSIN FROM JUNE 1953 TO APRIL 1954 AND AGAIN FROM JANUARY 1955 to AUGUST 1960
Scope and Content Note: Was not active in the 1954 campaign. Supportive of the “Joe Must Go” movement, but was not active in it.
Tape/Side   58/2
Time   15:55
SAWALL'S WORK FOR GOVERNOR NELSON
Scope and Content Note: An executive assistant. Bill Fairfield, Nelson's press secretary, was the “key guy.” Sawall did some agricultural work and a lot of contacts with labor unions. Also, a lot of Democratic Party contacts. When Sawall returned to Wisconsin in 1960, he did not want to ask Nelson for a job because they had been close social friends.
Tape/Side   58/2
Time   17:30
SAWALL'S POSITION VIS-A-VIS THE LUCEY-NELSON FUED
Scope and Content Note: “Sometimes I felt that that was one of the reasons I was brought back.” When he arrived back in Madison, he stayed with the Luceys. Stopped to see Governor Nelson, who invited him to the executive mansion after work. Sawall said he was staying with the Luceys and Nelson called and invited them too. “On surface it was cordial enough.”
Tape/Side   58/2
Time   18:45
MORE ON THE IMPACT OF THE 1960 PRESIDENTIAL PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Miles McMillin and Lucey, who had been very good friends, became “totally antagonistic toward one another.” Jim Doyle now was less active in the party; was a lawyer with Lucey Realty as one of his clients. “I'm glad I wasn't there” during the primary.
Tape/Side   58/2
Time   19:50
SAWALL'S WORK FOR SENATOR NELSON
Scope and Content Note: An executive assistant, at first. Did a lot of contact work with people back in Wisconsin through the 1968 election. After that did more Washington-oriented work, issues work. Three main issues areas: 1) labor and public welfare committee; 2) subcommittee on migratory labor; 3) agriculture.
Tape/Side   58/2
Time   22:05
TODAY SAWALL IS A PUBLIC AFFAIRS SPECIALIST WITH THE AGRICULTURAL MARKETING SERVICE
Scope and Content Note: This section of the Department of Agriculture, among other things, administers forty-five federal milk marketing orders throughout the country. “But the Reagan administration has decimated our public affairs operation. When I came here, we had forty-seven people on that staff, including five regional offices across the country.” For the last year, he has been the only one of the forty-seven who remains. Now he does about three hundred press releases a year.
Tape/Side   58/2
Time   24:10
SAWALL NEVER RAN FOR PUBLIC OFFICE HIMSELF
Scope and Content Note: “I just never pictured myself as a candidate.”
Tape/Side   58/2
Time   24:25
WORKING TO BUILD THE DOC WAS EXHILARATING
Scope and Content Note: “A common drive,” despite the differences of people.
Tape/Side   58/2
Time   25:55
SOMETIMES HE IS DISAPPOINTED AT THE LACK OF PROGRESS MADE SINCE 1948, LIKE IN THE AREA OF CIVIL RIGHTS
Tape/Side   58/2
Time   28:00
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/59
Subseries: William Proxmire, 1985 March 27
Note: Access online.
Tape/Side   59/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   59/1
Time   00:30
CAME TO WISCONSIN TO WORK AS A REPORTER ON THE CAPITAL TIMES AND TO GET INTO POLITICS
Scope and Content Note: “I was anxious to get into politics from the time I went there. I had that in mind from the very beginning.” Decision to come to Wisconsin was influenced by a Harvard professor who “advised me that that was a perfectly reasonable and effective way of getting into politics.” Capital Times was peculiar in that “it was extraordinarily politically oriented” and one of the few pro-Democratic newspapers in the country. As a reporter, he got a political beat. Wrote releases for the Democratic caucus in the legislature. Acted as a chauffeur for various candidates.
Tape/Side   59/1
Time   03:15
EARLY POLITICAL CAMPAIGNS
Scope and Content Note: Elected to the legislature in 1950. Ran for governor in 1952, “kind of sudden because I only came to the state in 1949, but that was a year when nobody wanted to run for governor.” Incumbent Governor Kohler was a liberal Republican and everyone expected him to win by a landslide. Proxmire made the race anyway in order to get “name recognition.” The governorship receives “an enormous” amount of attention in Wisconsin.
Tape/Side   59/1
Time   04:25
1950 ASSEMBLY RACE
Scope and Content Note: Ran against a sixty-five year old incumbent; Proxmire was thirty-four years old. “So I ran an invisible, sort of retail-type campaign.” Did no advertising and spent little money. Having left the Capital Times job, spent “all my time running for office,” ten to fourteen hours a day. Studied the election results of the previous few elections for his district and found that seventy percent of the votes in the Democratic primary were cast in ten of the twenty-eight precincts. So, he went door to door in those precincts. “I'd go to each door, and I'd introduce myself, and then when I got home I'd drop a note saying how much I enjoyed meeting the people who were there. Just before the election we dropped a note reminding them to vote. And also before the election my wife or I got on the phone and called about half the people I had met to remind them to vote.” Won a close election. His opponent had been on the county board for about twenty years; was an established farmer. Was considered a good man, but was not especially identified with the young DOC people.
Tape/Side   59/1
Time   07:10
1952 GUBERNATORIAL RACE
Scope and Content Note: Ran on primarily state issues, as opposed to a greater concentration on national issues in 1954. “I simply campaigned on his record and on the fact that people in the state had not had the kind of just representation of the working people, the small business people, and the farmers that our party stood for and our party was anxious to provide.” Did not criticize Kohler personally, just his record. Also used the McCarthy issue. “Operation Truth,” which proceeded the gubernatorial campaign; would follow McCarthy around, set up loudspeakers across the street from where he was speaking, and accuse him of being a fraud, of not having been effective in getting rid of Communists. McCarthy was a source of money for Proxmire's campaign, since people thought it was important for a strong gubernatorial showing in order to beat McCarthy. For that time, a lot of money was spent, much of it having been raised outside Wisconsin.
Tape/Side   59/1
Time   10:05
“JOE MUST GO” MOVEMENT
Scope and Content Note: Proxmire was involved, lent his name to the effort, but was not a leader of the effort.
Tape/Side   59/1
Time   10:35
1954 GUBERNATORIAL RACE
Scope and Content Note: Primary campaign with Jim Doyle, “a very, very tough opponent.” Good speaker, smart, with more support from the party than Proxmire. Milwaukee Journal expected Doyle to win.
Tape/Side   59/1
Time   11:45
PROXMIRE'S ROLE WITHIN THE DOC IN THE EARLY 1950s
Scope and Content Note: Spoke at many meetings. Tried to help candidates. “Sometimes I'd drive a hundred and fifty miles out in the state to give a speech to...there'd be only ten or fifteen people who'd show up.” Get home at two in the morning and get up for work a few hours later.
Tape/Side   59/1
Time   12:35
PERSONAL FINANCES DURING THE 1950s
Scope and Content Note: Had a series of jobs: sold advertising for Union Labor News; Brooks Implement Company, the super salesman for which was Adolph Loftus, father of Tom Loftus, current speaker of the Wisconsin assembly. Wife's family and his own were well off “and they helped out some. And we lived pretty simply.” More financial help from his family than from his wife's, despite the fact that hers, the Rockefellers, were much wealthier. One needs a job with a good deal of independence if one intends to run for office. Must make a sacrifice, which is very hard on ones family.
Tape/Side   59/1
Time   15:55
MORE ON 1954 GUBERNATORIAL RACE
Scope and Content Note: Very close. Labor wanted Proxmire to have a recount, but he refused “because I knew I was too far behind.” “Labor was as excited as the dickens.” Proxmire felt both he and the party would be better off not asking for a recount which would look like “spoil sports.”
Tape/Side   59/1
Time   17:20
LABOR SUPPORT FOR PROXMIRE
Scope and Content Note: Supported by both the AFL and the CIO. “AFL with less enthusiasm, but they were less enthusiastic about everything. CIO was much more active politically.”
Tape/Side   59/1
Time   17:45
1956 GUBERNATORIAL ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: Ran for governor rather than senator, because he thought he had a better chance of winning that contest because he had done so well in 1954 and because he would not be running against an incumbent. “I thought I was going to win in '56.” Knew the issues very well, having ran twice previously. Vernon Thomson, his opponent, was an “extraordinarily bright man, probably the brightest man they've had in that Republican Party in Wisconsin in my career.”
Tape/Side   59/1
Time   18:50
REPUDIATION OF DEMOCRATIC ATTORNEY GENERAL NOMINEE, ROBERT LA FOLLETTE SUCHER, 1956
Scope and Content Note: Grandson of old Bob La Follette. “A real character. He was a heavy drinker.” Involved in riotous parties in hotels during his campaign. “I thought, if he were successful in becoming the attorney general...that it would set us back ten years.” Proxmire persuaded Sucher's primary opponent, Frank Nikolay, to run as an independent. “Now there were some people in the party who thought that was a terrible thing to do and that I was jealous of Sucher and so forth, but most of the people felt it was exactly right because they knew him. And he was a nice fellow and the great thing about Sucher was that after all that campaign, he was not the least bit bitter. He didn't show any malice. He had all kinds of reason to be furious at me.” Proxmire campaigned for Nikolay.
Tape/Side   59/1
Time   22:25
ISSUES DURING THE 1954 AND 1956 CAMPAIGNS
Scope and Content Note: Different from 1952. The longtime Republican tenth district elected a Democrat, Lester Johnson, in 1953 special election because of the farm policies of Ezra Taft Benson. In 1952 Proxmire got only thirty percent of the farm vote; in 1954, he got a majority of the farm vote. In 1954 “I hit that Ezra Taft Benson thing very, very hard.” Did a series of radio spots on Kohler and Benson and the “absolutely heartless policy which was ruining the Wisconsin farmer.” “Kohler made the mistake of trying to answer me. And, God, I came back and just, I thought, just demolished him on the issue.” Farm vote was very important at the time. Since then the number of dairy farms in Wisconsin has declined from 107,000 to 40,000. Like 1954, the Eisenhower record was dwelt upon in 1956. Nevertheless, Eisenhower won by a landsli but Proxmire did very well anyway. “All the handshaking and t intense campaigning...paid off.” It was prior to either the 1 or the 1956 campaign that Proxmire called a series of town meetings. Would speak at four or five of them a day. “Terrif turnouts. The farmers were so mad. They just jammed these meetings.... Where we'd normally get three or four or five people, I'd get two hundred and three hundred people at every place I went.”
Tape/Side   59/1
Time   26:15
PROXMIRE CAMPAIGN TECHNIQUES
Scope and Content Note: Started in 1953 or 1954 sending congratulations to parents of newborns and couples just married. Got the names from the Milwaukee and Madison newspapers.
Tape/Side   59/1
Time   27:15
END OF TAPE 59, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   59/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   59/2
Time   00:30
1957 SENATE ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: Felt he had a good chance because it was a special election and the turnout for special elections is lighter. “The people who come out are the people who are unhappy and fed up. By 1957 there was a recession in the country.” Campaigned largely on the economy and won nine out of ten congressional districts. Proxmire would have run against McCarthy in 1958 if McCarthy had not died. Others were also interested, but he would have had a big advantage because of his many campaigns and his decisive defeat of Jim Doyle in the 1954 primary. In the 1957 primary, his opponent, Clem Zablocki, only carried two counties, Milwaukee and Portage, the latter having a big Polish population. Proxmire feels McCarthy would have been more vulnerable in 1958 than Kohler was in 1957.
Tape/Side   59/2
Time   03:20
PROXMIRE'S POLITICAL OFFICE PREFERENCES
Scope and Content Note: The U.S. Senate was not necessarily Proxmire's goal, rather than governor. “I was very, very interested in state government. And I enjoyed the state legislature very much. I liked being a legislator, frankly, better than being an executive because you can be more of a free spirit and you're not responsible for everything in sight and you don't have to delegate authority to literally hundreds and hundreds of people to carry out your policies and all kinds of agencies over which you don't know much except the names of the people that run them.... That didn't appeal to me a great deal.”
Tape/Side   59/2
Time   04:20
FACTIONS WITHIN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: “They were real differences, I think. There's no question that they were personal. They weren't ideological. We didn't have much in the way ideological differences at that time. A little later on, after I got to the senate, began to vote against some of the spending programs, that became an issue.”
Tape/Side   59/2
Time   05:40
ANTI-PROXMIRE FEELING IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: Anecdote about Lucey, Reynolds, and Bill Duffy visiting him after McCarthy's death and encouraging him to run for the senate as the logical, best known candidate. Meanwhile, Henry Reuss got interested in running and started “Operation Sounding Board” which consisted of meetings of Democrats around the state to determine a favorite candidate. “The reason for it was because they wanted to get me out of the race. They figured that I wasn't as close to the party as some of the other people were.” The first visit of “Operation Sounding Board” was in Green Bay and the first speaker was Reynolds who got up, praised Proxmire, and then called for Reuss to be the candidate. “The son of a gun didn't tell me.... It was all right for him to be for anybody he wanted to, but to tell me he was for me and then to go out and make that speech for Reuss was just.... The floor just fell right out from under me.” Proxmire attended all the “Operation Sounding Board” meetings, but Reuss was in Washington and Proxmire and his wife sat in the front row at each meeting “and people were intimidated.... So the 'Sounding board' thing turned out to be a rally for me and that worked out nicely.... By and large, I've been lucky in that. I think they had every reason for people in the party to be resentful because here's this guy comes in from the east...from out of state, moves in on their party; they've done all this work; they've served some of them in the Progressive Party; and this outsider comes in and moves into the juiciest places, runs for governor; when he feels like running for the senate, he runs for the senate; and they had every reason on the face of the earth to resent me, but they were very, very good about it.”
Tape/Side   59/2
Time   09:00
GERMAN INFLUENCE IN WISCONSIN POLITICS
Scope and Content Note: Woodrow Wilson's entry into World War I against the Germans “just demolished the Democratic Party.” “When we were just beginning to come back and Franklin Roosevelt did the same thing....”
Tape/Side   59/2
Time   10:50
REASONS FOR THE DEMOCRATIC BREAKTHROUGH IN 1958
Scope and Content Note: “I think it was the fact that the Republicans made the mistake that parties always make and it was inevitable, they became too ideological, they became too conservative.” Instead of “becoming a little more liberal to absorb our challenge, they went to kind of the other extreme.... It was their mistake as well as the fact that we had good young people in the party.”
Tape/Side   59/2
Time   11:50
PROUDEST ACHIEVEMENTS AS U.S. SENATOR
Scope and Content Note: Truth-in-lending act. Stopping the supersonic transport (SST). Banking deregulation bill, 1980, which ended limits on the amount of interest savings accounts can earn.
Tape/Side   59/2
Time   16:15
DISAPPOINTMENTS AS U.S. SENATOR
Scope and Content Note: Inability to get the Genocide Treaty ratified. Has spoken in favor of its ratification every day of each senate session since January 11, 1967. Much closer now than at any time previous; President Reagan appears to favor it.
Tape/Side   59/2
Time   17:00
RECALLS NO INACCURACIES IN JAY SYKES' PROXMIRE
Tape/Side   59/2
Time   17:40
MORE ON ACHIEVEMENTS AS SENATOR
Scope and Content Note: Has not missed a vote since April 1966, the longest record in the history of the senate “by far.” Previous record was seven years. “The other thing was that I'm the only candidate in the last fifteen or twenty years who had been elected to office without spending any money to speak of. Both in 1976 and 1982; I spent 177 dollars in 1976 and 145 dollars in 1982.” Best record in five of the last seven years in the roll call of the Taxpayers' Union, which keeps track of spending bills in the senate. Golden Fleece awards: two-thirds of those identified wind up being discontinued or sharply cut back.
Tape/Side   59/2
Time   19:35
ASSESSMENT OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: Growth of Democratic Party of Wisconsin is “a good example of real success by hard work.” Good competitive balance between Democrats and Republicans in Wisconsin. All constitutional offices and both houses of the legislature are now Democratic. “I think that's a remarkable achievement when you consider what we had to struggle from.” A good showing in the last presidential election, despite Reagan's victory. “Somehow I think our party has more of an image of youth and vigor than the Republican Party has.”
Tape/Side   59/2
Time   22:15
CAMPAIGN FINANCING TODAY
Scope and Content Note: In regard to his inexpensive campaigns, “you don't know how long you can get away with this kind of stuff.... Campaigns have gotten so expensive and, after all, people do watch television.” Predicts over two million dollars will be spent on behalf of Senator Robert Kasten in the 1986 campaign.
Tape/Side   59/2
Time   23:20
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/60-61
Subseries: Patrick Lucey, 1985 April 10
Note
Tape/Side   60/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   60/1
Time   00:30
BIOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Born in La Crosse and grew up in Ferryville. Father, Gregory Charles Lucey, ran a grocery and general store in Ferryville. Mother's maiden name was Ella McNamara. He is the oldest of seven children. Campion High School, Prairie du Chien. Attended St. Thomas College, 1935-37, then returned home to run a grocery for three years which his father had acquired. Went to the University of Wisconsin-Madison in 1940. Attended for two semesters. Was drafted in August 1941 and served in the military for four and a half years. Discharged on Christmas day, 1945. Graduated in June 1946 from UW.
Tape/Side   60/1
Time   03:10
EARLY POLITICAL INTEREST
Scope and Content Note: In college he was interested, but did not run for class office and was not involved with the Young Democrats or the Young Progressives. Recalls the Smith campaign of 1928, probably because his family was the only Irish Catholic family in town. Very interested in the 1932 Franklin Roosevelt campaign; attended Roosevelt's victory party in Prairie du Chien, held in the lobby of William Carroll's hotel. Could name all the members of Roosevelt's first cabinet. Parents thought of themselves as Democrats, like most Irish Catholics, but thought well of the La Follettes. Recalls attending a church picnic in Glen Haven during Bob La Follette's 1928 campaign. Also, recalls a speech in Ferryville by Phil La Follette. In 1940, the first election in which he could vote, he voted for Roosevelt for president, Progressives on the state level, and a number of Republicans at the county level.
Tape/Side   60/1
Time   08:20
BY 1946, CONSIDERED HIMSELF A NEW DEAL DEMOCRAT
Scope and Content Note: Did not attend the Progressive Party convention in 1946. Actively supported the local Democratic slate and organized a rally for that slate in Ferryville. Did some campaign work for Frank Antoine, who was running as a Democrat for the state assembly.
Tape/Side   60/1
Time   10:00
1948 ASSEMBLY RACE
Scope and Content Note: Antoine decided to run for Congress, which left the Democratic assembly slot open on the ticket. Antoine asked Lucey to run for the assembly. “At first blush it looked like kind of a hopeless deal because our assemblyman was the speaker of the assembly, Don McDowell. But then I looked at the Blue Book and saw that Frank came within two hundred votes of beating him in '46, which was not a great year for Democrats.” Lucey ran and was elected, Republicans had a tough primary and the loser then ran as an independent, pulling enough votes from the incumbent to permit Lucey to win. Had there not been an independent candidacy, Lucey may well have won anyway, but the independent candidacy “assured my victory.”
Tape/Side   60/1
Time   13:15
CANNOT RECALL WHICH PRIMARY HE VOTED IN IN 1946, BUT WOULD GUESS HE VOTED FOR LA FOLLETTE
Tape/Side   60/1
Time   15:10
FIRST INVOLVEMENT WITH THE DOC
Scope and Content Note: Subscribed to the Capital Times. Recalls reading John Wyngard's column in the La Crosse Tribune, from which he got “to know the cast of characters”--Bob Tehan and the like. “Except for some inkling of what was going on, I really was sort of in the dark, and was sort of a loner out there in Crawford County because I had these ideas that, since the Progressive Party had collapsed with Bob La Follette's loss in '46, that the Democratic Party was the way to go and that we had to turn the Democratic Party into a liberal vehicle. That was why I was so adamant about Carl Thompson winning over our local leader Bill Carroll (in 1948).” Came to Madison in June 1948 to a convention held at Central High School. “That was a real eye-opener for me because for the first time I saw people like Horace Wilkie, Carl Thompson, and Henry Reuss.... That was the first time I realized that what I was doing out in Crawford County was really part of a movement and that I was very much in sync with what these people were doing with whom I'd had no communication at all.”
Tape/Side   60/1
Time   19:10
1948 DEMOCRATIC SLATE
Scope and Content Note: Lucey not too involved in preparing the slate. “My channel of communication in all that was Jim Doyle.” Henry Reuss did not want to run for lieutenant governor because he had lost the mayor of Milwaukee election and “didn't feel he wanted to get bruised up a second time in the same year. As it turns out, if he had run, he would have been elected.”
Tape/Side   60/1
Time   20:30
ROLE OF DEMOCRATS ELECTED TO THE LEGISLATURE IN 1948
Scope and Content Note: “I think we saw it as an opportunity to make a record for the Democratic Party.... I had my own legislative program as a freshman legislator, very much in the minority. I introduced a tobacco marketing bill, which is one of the issues that I had campaigned on. I was very involved in reform of elementary and secondary education. And I remember I used to spend a lot of time down in the state superintendent's office and we didn't have computers in those days; and so every time we came up with a new aid formula I would apply it to three Crawford County districts to see” how three different sized districts were affected. Sponsored a bill to integrate the National Guard and the public schools. Also had a bill on fair employment practices and a “little Hoover commission” to reorganize state government in the interest of efficiency. Republicans ignored his and other Democratic measures, but “we did make a record.” Imposed a lot of roll call votes on the Republican majority. Worked closely with the Democratic senators on the budget. Was appointed to the agriculture committee. The legislature was very understaffed. The chair of the agriculture committee, a dentist from Walworth County, had a very safe district and did not bother to answer his constituent mail. “And so I had access to the secretary for the committee to handle the voluminous correspondence that I was sending back to Crawford County and to the whole third district, because afterall I was district chairman of the party and I was trying hard to get the district organized with the view to running for Congress in 1950.” Because the legislature paid so poorly, “I felt that as far as politics was concerned, it was either up or out, that I couldn't afford to stay in the legislature at a hundred dollars a month.” Was basically a fulltime legislator. “A wonderful relationship with some” of the old Progressives in the legislature. “They had utter contempt for the leadership of the Republican Party at that time--Vernon Thomson and Mark Catlin.” “Some of them had the rule that they'd vote with the leadership on procedure, but they'd vote with us on substance.”
Tape/Side   60/1
Time   27:10
ORGANIZING LOCAL DOC UNITS
Scope and Content Note: Travelled a lot with Tom Fairchild, taking turns as the presider and the featured speaker. “If we could get them to sign up for their membership and elect officers all on one trip, we figured that was a very successful evening. And usually it was only possible because somebody else had made a preliminary trip into the county in advance to get things setup and to get names to send invitations to and all that sort of thing.”
Tape/Side   60/1
Time   26:35
END OF TAPE 60, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   60/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   60/2
Time   00:30
MORE ON ORGANIZING LOCAL DOC UNITS
Scope and Content Note: Tried to avoid direct confrontations with the statutory party. Some statutory chairmen would resist; some would welcome the new effort. In many of the rural counties, the statutory party people were interested only in postmasterships and rural mailcarrier jobs. Many were Irish Catholics “because back in the early '30s that seemed to be almost synonymous with being a Democrat.” “I had one chairman tell me about what a wonderful relationship he had with the Republicans over in the courthouse. He said, 'You know, I don't challenge them and they don't challenge me. We get along just fine.' Which meant that the Republicans ran unopposed.” If the organizing was in his part of the state, Lucey would do the advance work. Recalls trying to organize Racine County: Jerry Flynn and Sam Rizzo were leaders of two different factions. Three or four hundred people showed up. When it was time to ask for nominations of officers for the Racine DOC, one moved and the other seconded that nominations be put off for a month or so because the attendence was not large enough to be representative, “which said to me that neither of them was sure he had a majority.” On the other hand, often it was difficult to turn out enough people to have a decent election. In Iowa County, the statutory chairman did not like the idea of the parallel organization and ran for DOC chairman because his wife was acting postmistress and he wanted her to keep her job. Reuss and Lucey were running the meeting and had their own favorite candidate for county chair. The guy they did not want to win, won by one vote out of seventeen cast. “We counted them several times, but the result was always the same. We finally, with long faces, I'm sure, announced the result that this gentleman had been elected chairman of the new party as well as continuing to be chairman of the statutory party.” In urban counties labor was very much in evidence and many former Progressives came to these meetings. In Racine, Jerry Flynn represented traditional Democrats. In Milwaukee, former socialists came to the meetings.
Tape/Side   60/2
Time   07:45
1949 FOUNDING CONVENTION OF THE DOC
Scope and Content Note: Recalls no big issues. Enthusiasm. Lucey chaired the agriculture committee.
Tape/Side   60/2
Time   09:05
DOC CONTROLLED POST OFFICE PATRONAGE AT LEAST BY 1951
Scope and Content Note: Lucey was hired as DOC executive director after his defeat in the 1950 congressional race. He worked at that job from January 1951 until September 1952 when he resigned to run Fairchild's campaign for the senate. Jerry Fox was chair of both the statutory party and the DOC for part of that time. “At any rate, it was very clear that post office patronage was in the hands of the party that I worked for, because I used to dictate letters to the Post Office Department for Fox's signature indicating our choice.” National Committeeman and Committeewoman were selected by the delegates to the national convention. Lucey does not recall how vacancies were filled, however.
Tape/Side   60/2
Time   14:05
1950 CONGRESSIONAL RACE
Scope and Content Note: Did not feel he had much of a chance. Felt that in order to elect a U.S. senator or a governor, “we had to do a lot better in those southwestern ten counties than we had done in the past, and that by mounting a really effective campaign for Congress and, in preparation for that campaign, getting people to run for the various courthouse jobs and getting legislative candidates, that I would improve the chances of Tom Fairchild in the senate race and Carl Thompson in the gubernatorial race. And that was a lot of my motivation in making the effort. Plus the fact that I had the feeling that Gardner Withrow, who had been a Progressive in good standing in his youth and had come out of the railroad brother- hoods...that he had broken with his tradition, had voted for Taft-Hartley, and that there were ample grounds in terms of the issues to oppose him. And yet, because he came out of the brotherhoods, the conservative labor group tended to support him.” Strangely, Withrow was endorsed by both the Republican Voluntary Committee and the AFL. Lucey did receive more votes than any Democrat had previously received in that congressional district. Withrow, like most Republicans at the time, pretty much ignored his opponent, Lucey. Actually Lucey thought for a time that he might have a conservative opponent because a conservative had received the RVC endorsement during the primary, but another conservative entered the primary and split the conservative vote. Withrow won the primary with only a bare plurality. “I did manage to get full slates of candidates in most of the ten counties.”
Tape/Side   60/2
Time   19:45
MORE ON 1948 ASSEMBLY ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: Truman got more votes in Lucey's assembly district than Lucey did. Lucey was invited to ride on the Truman campaign train, which was going near Crawford County. “Well, my first thought was, 'Will that help or hurt me in my district?' Well then my ego got in the way of my judgement and I decided that the thing to do was to ride on the president's train irrespective of what effect it might have.” This is when he first met Hubert Humphrey. Lucey was impressed that Truman had something different to say to each local candidate to whom he was introduced.
Tape/Side   60/2
Time   21:40
MARGUERITE ROGERS RAN FOR LUCEY'S ASSEMBLY SEAT IN 1950
Scope and Content Note: Lucey persuaded Marguerite Rogers, who had been elected register of deeds seven times in a row in Crawford County, to run for his assembly seat, feeling “she would be a cinch to be elected to the assembly.” She lost. Rogers' county level elections had been an aberration. She was quite receptive to the DOC.
Tape/Side   60/2
Time   23:50
1950 ELECTIONS
Scope and Content Note: People were very enthused after the 1948 showing of the Democratic Party, but Bob Tehan warned that it would take ten years to elect a Democratic governor. “I think a lot of people weren't in on that conversation and thought that we could do it a lot quicker. and who knows, if it hadn't been for the war in (Korea), '50 might have been a different outcome. We got beat up terribly on that. Somehow McCarthy and these guys were able to make the charge stick that the Truman administration was soft on communism even at the every moment that we were killing people for being communists in (Korea).” “Joe-McCarthy in 1950 came into the Checkerboard Inn in Prairie du Chien and described Pat Lucey as a 'Commiecrat.'” Early in 1950, however, things looked good and this lured four Democrats into the Democratic senatorial primary.
Tape/Side   60/2
Time   26:25
1950 DEMOCRATIC SENATORIAL PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Tom Fairchild's father did not hold out much hope for Tom being elected. Tom was nearing forty years of age. His father thought he could be reelected attorney general. “So his father said, 'Well Tom, better to start the practice of law at forty than at forty-two.'” Democratic senatorial primary had four candidates, “a very interesting combination.” “I wanted Tom to win that thing, but as a candidate for Congress out there in the third district, I was very careful....”
Tape/Side   60/2
Time   28:35
END OF TAPE 60, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   61/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   61/1
Time   00:30
MORE ON THE 1950 SENATE CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: Lucey stayed neutral because he would have to work with the winner during the general election.
Tape/Side   61/1
Time   00:50
PRE-PRIMARY ENDORSEMENTS
Scope and Content Note: “You know, we inherited from the La Follettes this notion that the party shouldn't endorse and that the primary should be free and open and so forth. It was almost as though that there was something crude or corrupting about endorsing fellow candidates.” Lucey had some uneasiness with the no endorsement policy because it was “inherited from the very pure La Follette progressives when, of course, in the La Follette days the slate-making occurred probably with less democracy than occurs in a convention setting.” Since old Bob had been the victim of slate-making by the Republicans, the Progressives opposed endorsements by conventions. Lucey is surprised that 1200 to 1400 people will show up for a convention “that is little more than just a get together and an occasion to adopt a platform with some planks that the candidates will wisely not take very seriously. It's amazing to me that people continue to come to conventions when they don't really have much to say about who's going to be the nominee of the party.” They come, apparently, to renew acquaintances and to simply be with like-minded people.
Tape/Side   61/1
Time   03:50
LUCEY BECAME EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE DOC IN PART BECAUSE OF JOE McCARTHY
Scope and Content Note: He does not know whose idea it was. He met with a group of six or eight in Madison--Thompson, Doyle, Wilkie, Virginia Hart. “The idea was that we had reached the point where if we could put somebody in the field to organize these counties and get ready.... And it was tied up to the McCarthy thing, too. In fact, I wouldn't have done it, but I really, as I look back on it, I had an exaggerated notion of the importance of Joe McCarthy.” An evil man who had a “deadly influence on many aspects of government and of life in this country.” Lucey thought of him at the time as a potential American Hitler, but realizes now his appeal was too narrow for that. Lucey felt the Democratic Party had the responsibility of eliminating McCarthy and McCarthyism from America. “So, when I took the job in January of '51 to be the party organizer, it was with the thought of preparing the party for that battle of the century when we would put our best and strongest candidate up against Joe McCarthy. And so it was very logical that once the primary was over and Tom Fairchild had defeated Henry Reuss that I should be asked to give up my party duties and become the campaign manager.” Lucey had great respect and some awe for party chair Jim Doyle and was concerned that his switch to the Fairchild campaign might not be considered appropriate. But Doyle said, “What's this all about. Our purpose was to beat Joe McCarthy and of course you ought to move up to take over the campaign.” Lucey had to recruit a replacement to run the get-out-the-vote and other things he was responsible for during the campaign as party executive director. He recruited John Gronouski, who was then a graduate student at the University. Lucey offered him the job over the phone simply on the recommendation of Esther Kaplan, without ever having met him. “And years later we used to laugh about it because he made an all-out effort to get out that vote, and of course what vote did he get out? He got out an Eisenhower vote.”
Tape/Side   61/1
Time   07:45
DUTIES AS EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF DOC
Scope and Content Note: “The party organization requires constant maintenance.” Finding replacements for county chairmen; recruitment of candidate for local offices and the legislature. “You've got to worry about your slate, your state slate, and in 1952 we were still out recruiting people to run for lieutenant governor and attorney general and so forth. The business of having four qualified people running for the U.S. senate in 1950 was not a typical situation by any means.”
Tape/Side   61/1
Time   08:55
FINANCING THE POSITION OF EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR AND OTHER PARTY EXPENSES
Scope and Content Note: Henry Maier opposed hiring an executive director. As a compromise to get Maier's support, Jim Doyle agreed that Lucey's salary would be raised from sources outside the state. The Committee for an Effective Congress “took on the responsibility from Jim of raising the money.” Was paid 500 dollars a month plus expenses. Was married in the fall of 1951 and had a baby in June of 1952. All the money for his salary and expenses was raised from outside the state. Other money for running the party was raised from membership dues. The annual Jefferson-Jackson Day dinner raised some money at 25 dollars a plate. A contribution plan. Pledges from postmasters and rural mailcarriers. “Usually their enthusiasm for that had a rather short half life, I'd say.”
Tape/Side   61/1
Time   12:55
1952 SENATORIAL PRIMARIES
Scope and Content Note: Lucey had exercised “occupational neutrality” during the primary. “It was really a very sad experience as far as Henry (Reuss) was concerned because Henry had run and lost for mayor, had begged off for running for lieutenant governor when he could have won, and then ran for attorney general in 1950 and lost.... Here we are in '52 and he devoted a year of his life to running for the senate. Fairchild comes on the scene late in the game and beat him in the primary.” Meanwhile, Len Schmitt, who was to the left of Harry Truman, ran in the Republican primary against McCarthy. “That campaign generated a lot of interest and a lot of money.”
Tape/Side   61/1
Time   15:00
1952 SENATE CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: After the primary, Lucey's first job was to convince people, especially those outside Wisconsin, that McCarthy could still be beat. Fairchild ran better in November than Reuss would have. Unlikely he could have won, even if he had started campaigning a year earlier. Given the amount of straight ticket voting in those days, it is unlikely Fairchild could have created a greater gap between McCarthy's vote and Eisenhower's than he actually did. Anecdote about almost getting secretary of state Fred Zimmerman, a Republican, to permit his name to be affixed to four hundred thousand penny postcards asking voters to vote for him and to cross over and vote for Fairchild for senate. When the postcards were ready to go to press, Lucey called him to read the final copy and Zimmerman backed out. Lucey was only three blocks from the capitol and Zimmerman's office when he made the call. “And to this day I think if I had taken that proof up to him in person instead of on the telephone, it might have made the difference.” Hard to say if that would have made the difference in the election. Does not recall how he arranged this with Zimmerman, but it might have been through his son, Bob Zimmerman, who was a friend of Lucey's from his days in the assembly. Anecdote about Edward P. Morgan, who had been J. Edgar Hoover's specialist on communism and who broke with Hoover. Morgan thought the efforts of the FBI to root out communists were being undermined by McCarthy. The Sunday before the election, the Fairchild people brought Morgan to Milwaukee to do a half hour show on Wisconsin's only TV station, WTMJ; a half hour of prime time cost 500 dollars. WTMJ, the day of the show, insisted it get a copy of Morgan's text before letting him go on the air. Morgan had no text, but dictated his speech to Lucey's wife, Jean. “So he walked down to the station with this text in his briefcase and the station manager didn't even think to ask for it.” He then gave his speech and it was almost verbatim what he had earlier dictated. “It was a very telling message.” Sent tapes of it to radio stations for broadcast the day before the election. “McCarthy was so upset by this that he finally acknowledged that he had opposition and he got Hoover to issue some kind of a statement trying to discredit Morgan.... It got to him.” The day after the telecast, Lucey was sitting in a Milwaukee restaurant and everyone within earshot was talking about that TV show. Lucey had questioned whether there were enough TV sets in Wisconsin to justify spending 500 dollars for this show, but someone came up with the statistic that there were as many TV sets in Wisconsin in 1952 as there had been in the entire nation in 1948. “Could have been five, but that somehow impressed me. So I said, 'Okay, we spend the 500 dollars.'” Lucey tried to get Fairchild to sharpen his attack in his speeches, which were often filled with qualifying phrases.
Tape/Side   61/1
Time   23:55
“JOE MUST GO” MOVEMENT
Scope and Content Note: Lucey did not get very involved in this, though sympathetic. Wanted it to succeed, but did not play an active role.
Tape/Side   61/1
Time   24:45
LUCEY BIOGRAPHY AFTER THE 1952 ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: Lucey returned as executive director of the DOC after the 1952 election. In December he presented a budget to the administrative committee and that budget contained no line item for his salary. He had decided to phase out the position because the party could not afford it any longer. Became a real estate salesman. Went from January 20, 1952 to sometime in March before making his first sale. Bought an interest in a lumber yard later that year and sold out six months later. Ran Jim Doyle's campaign for governor in the 1954 primary. Ran Elliot Walstead's primary campaign for U.S. senator in 1956. In 1957 he was chairman of Proxmire's campaign committee and later that year ran for and was elected party chair.
Tape/Side   61/1
Time   27:30
DOYLE'S 1954 PRIMARY CAMPAIGN FOR GOVERNOR
Scope and Content Note: “My two heroes in that period, other than Adlai Stevenson, were Doyle and Fairchild. On any issue where I found myself in disagreement with them, I went back and reexamined my position.” In 1952, the party was “grateful” to have Proxmire heading the ticket. It had been between him and Herman Jessen, “and Herman I don't think would have set the world on fire as a candidate.” But Proxmire lost by several hundred thousand votes.
Tape/Side   61/1
Time   25:45
END OF TAPE 61, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   61/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   61/2
Time   00:30
MORE ON THE 1954 DOYLE CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: Fran Rose spoke with Lucey about how Proxmire had done so poorly in 1952 and “we ought not to have to settle for Proxmire again” and that Doyle could probably be persuaded to run. Lucey drafted a letter to about a hundred party leaders around the state, asking their opinion of Doyle's potential candidacy. By a margin of three or four to one, the responses favored giving Proxmire another chance. Lucey took the responses to Doyle. “And Jim looks at this big thick stack of Proxmire supporters and leafs through this little thin stack of Doyle supporters. He says, 'Well, I can sense a ground swell as quickly as the next one. I think I'll run.'” Not a hard hitting campaign. Very gentlemanly. Underestimated Proxmire's grassroots support, his energy and his willingness to spend his own money on the campaign. Proxmire bought television time of fifteen minute segments or less in Madison, Milwaukee, Green Bay, and Wausau. He would then make a swing each week through these cities to do his TV spots, sandwiched around plant gate visits, etc. Lucey thought the warm Doyle would show up the tough Proxmire on TV, but it did not work that way at all, but rather the reverse. Did not have much money for the campaign. In fact, during the last days of the campaign, “I had Doyle on the phone raising money instead of making speeches.” First inkling “of what we were up against” came when Lucey took a list of 500 party people in Dane County and started calling them and they all asked why Lucey was calling instead of the candidate Doyle since Proxmire had called these same people personally. Campaign money came mainly from party members. “The record will show that we got 1500 dollars from the Teamsters and we had great reservations about whether or not we should accept it, but we were so desperate, we finally did.”
Tape/Side   61/2
Time   06:40
ELLIOT WALSTEAD CAMPAIGN IN 1956 SENATORIAL PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Lucey did not run the campaign, but worked for Walstead. Had recruited Walstead to run for attorney general in 1952, “and we all had great admiration for Elliot. And we lost the primary again, to Henry Maier.”
Tape/Side   61/2
Time   07:15
BILL PROXMIRE'S SENATORIAL CANDIDACY IN 1957
Scope and Content Note: Lucey had always been '“less than enthused”' about Proxmire candidacies. But he was on his way home from work In 1957 and heard of McCarthy's death, “and I got home and I said, 'I think the only way the Democrats can win this thing is for Proxmire to be the nominee.' And my wife agreed. And I picked up the phone and I called Bill. And the next morning he came by for breakfast and I gave him a check for 500 dollars, which was a lot of money in those days, and agreed too that he'd use my name in any way that he wanted. And so he said, 'Well, all right, you're the chair- man of the committee.' Now the fact is that as far as running a Proxmire campaign, nobody runs a Proxmire campaign except Bill.” The day before the election Lucey called Proxmire's wife to let her know he did not think Proxmire would win and to try to prepare her for the let down. “And she says, 'But Pat, you don't understand, we're going to win.' So I hung up the phone after a few pleasantries and I thought, 'My God, I waited too long to call her. She's locked in on this thing.' So much for my sagacity in figuring out how the campaign was going to come out.”
Tape/Side   61/2
Time   10:20
WHY LUCEY RAN FOR PARTY CHAIR IN 1957
Scope and Content Note: Proxmire felt the party did not do for his campaign what he thought it should have done. Proxmire became determined that Philleo Nash be replaced as party chair at the October convention. Proxmire instructed Lucey to find a candidate for party chair whom Proxmire could support. “I wound up volunteering my own services 'cause I couldn't find anybody. There were so damned many factions in the party and I had to get somebody that was acceptable to the Proxmire people and acceptable to the old Doyle bunch and so forth. And it just became more and more apparent that I was the only one that could do it. And I didn't go into it wanting to run for chairman. In fact, that was the last thing I wanted to do. Finally, when Jean decided that she could live with it, I went back to Prox and said that I would do it.” It was alleged that Philleo Nash had turned down a check from the DNC for the Proxmire campaign.
Tape/Side   61/2
Time   12:15
MORE ON THE 1957 SENATE RACE
Scope and Content Note: A lot of people did not like Proxmire. Nash made an effort, through hearings around the state, to find a candidate other than Proxmire. An effort was made to get Reuss to run. Clem Zablocki finally ran and challenged Proxmire to a debate. Proxmire accepted, but later had a schedule conflict and sent Lucey as his stand in, which upset the Zablocki people. Anecdote about Melvin Laird, “ever the mischief maker,” who asked Reuss, in the company of Zablocki, if he would oppose the dean of the Wisconsin Democratic delegation in Washington if that person (Zablocki) decided to run for the senate. Reuss, thinking Zablocki would never run, said he would not. “That was all the encouragement that Clem needed.”
Tape/Side   61/2
Time   15:20
PARTY FACTIONALISM
Scope and Content Note: Nash was elected party chair narrowly over Horace Wilkie. That was the only convention Lucey did not attend and he thinks he might have been able to influence the outcome if he had. Most people were on the same side of things--personalities or issues-- convention after convention.
Tape/Side   61/2
Time   18:30
END OF TAPE 61, SIDE 2
Audio   1030A/62-63
Subseries: John Reynolds, 1985 April 11
Note: Access online.
Tape/Side   62/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   62/1
Time   00:30
BIOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Born and raised in Green Bay. Father was a progressive Republican attorney general, 1926-1933; 1938, state chair of the Progressive Party.
Tape/Side   62/1
Time   01:45
COLLEGE POLITICAL ACTIVITIES
Scope and Content Note: Entered University of Wisconsin-Madison in 1938. Attended Young Progressives meetings; active with the Daily Cardinal; “the normal things that active kids do at the University.”
Tape/Side   62/1
Time   02:15
IN THE ARMY, 1942-1946
Scope and Content Note: A first lieutenant in the counterintelligence corps. Never left the United States.
Tape/Side   62/1
Time   02:40
MORE ON COLLEGE YEARS
Scope and Content Note: Finished his B.A. after the War and went on to get his law degree. Student law clerk in the attorney general's office, 1948.
Tape/Side   62/1
Time   03:20
BREAK UP OF THE PROGRESSIVE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: He was not yet back from the War when the Progressives had their last convention in 1946. Did write his father urging that the Progressives go into the Democratic Party, not the Republican Party. “So by the time I left the army, I was ideologically a Roosevelt Democrat; or, we should say a 'New Deal' Democrat. I still am.≵ His father felt the Progressives should go into the Republican Party because he thought Norwegians would never vote for the Democratic Party. “The fact is he underestimated the impact of Germany's invasion into Norway and the influence that had on the Norwegian population of our state. And I do recall going into the office and pointing out to him, with a certain amount of glee I should say, that when Lester Johnson was elected to Congress in the old ninth district, which was heavily Norwegian....”
Tape/Side   62/1
Time   04:45
FIRST INVOLVEMENT WITH DEMOCRATS
Scope and Content Note: The election of 1946. “My sympathies were with the Democrats at that time.” Professor Selig Perlman favored Bob La Follette that year, pointing out that it was important to elect some good Republicans because some day “the Republicans would govern.” Did not vote in the Republican primary that year. Only voted in the Republican primary once in his life, that for the brother of a close friend, “and I thought it was a mistake.” That vote was for John Byrnes in 1944.
Tape/Side   62/1
Time   06:40
ANECDOTE ABOUT LISTING HIS POLITICAL AFFILIATION AS PROGRESSIVE PARTY WHEN IN THE ARMY
Scope and Content Note: For the intelligence work for which he was being trained, he had to list any political parties he belonged to other than the two major parties. He listed the Progressive Party, “and, of course, the military didn't know what that was.” Had to be checked out.
Tape/Side   62/1
Time   07:15
1948 CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: Was involved only as a worker at the party headquarters. Both he and his wife, whose father had also been an active Progressive, worked at party headquarters. Their main job was to comb the old Progressive lists looking for names of people in their home areas who might be amenable to becoming Democrats.
Tape/Side   62/1
Time   08:40
ORGANIZING LOCAL DOC UNITS; HELP FROM OLD-LINE DEMOCRATS
Scope and Content Note: Returned to Green Bay to practice law in January 1949. Immediately took an active role as an organizer of the eighth congressional district “and making sure we had a viable Democratic Organizing Committee in each of the counties. We were helped immeasurably in Green Bay by some of the old-line Democrats.” Old-line Democrats in Green Bay included both the “post office” Democrats and a liberal group, headed by Gerry Clifford. Clifford had been in charge of Henry Wallace's attempt to be renominated for vice president at the 1944 Democratic convention. Clifford was very effective at cutting down opposition. Basically operated “through the old La Follette group.” Worked with Harvey Graase, a former Progressive in Door County, and “there were a lot of old Progressives, a lot of Scandinavian people in Door County who were receptive to the change. We did the same in Outagamie county--Louie Nelson is the only Socialist that I have met who was the president of a paper mill.” Also Katherine Sullivan in Kaukauna. “And they seemed to welcome the idea of these young people coming in and... revitalizing the Democratic Party....”
Tape/Side   62/1
Time   12:15
ATTRACTION OF THE DOC
Scope and Content Note: “I think that the main interest of the activists who came into the party was some belief in some form of a democratic liberal society, maybe on the Scandinavian model, maybe on the Swedish model; some- times they were as far left as the Socialists, sometimes they were just reformers who were against corruption. But basically I think there was a common and a very important ideological commitment that we were really out to improve society, along what I would call the Swedish model.”
Tape/Side   62/1
Time   13:10
INVOLVEMENT OF LABOR IN THE DOC IN THE EIGHTH DISTRICT
Scope and Content Note: In Green Bay the building trades were the active sector of the labor movement and they had been “very active in the old Progressive Party and they were very relieved, I think...to eliminate the problem, or have it eliminated for them, the problem of a third party, because they felt more comfortable in the Democratic Party, and they were very helpful.” Outagamie had a strong labor group “and Manitowoc County was the most Democratic county of northeast Wisconsin; the labor group was very helpful there.”
Tape/Side   62/1
Time   14:00
REYNOLDS' CONGRESSIONAL RACE, 1950
Scope and Content Note: The party could not find a candidate, “and I volunteered. I was anxious to do it.”
Tape/Side   62/1
Time   14:20
FIRST DOC CONVENTION, 1949 IN GREEN BAY
Scope and Content Note: Reynolds very active in planning the convention. The only issue that stands out from that convention was the question of pre-primary endorsements by the party.
Tape/Side   62/1
Time   14:55
PRE-PRIMARY ENDORSEMENTS
Scope and Content Note: Reynolds supported party endorsements, a more “pragmatic” way. “I thought it was ridiculous to have a political organization that couldn't make any decisions.” The Capital Times opposed party endorsements and carried the day. “Hypocritical” to “beg” people to run for office, with no chance of winning, just to support the movement “and then not openly support them in the primary. That question's never been resolved.” “It's always very difficult for liberals to accept organization.”
Tape/Side   62/1
Time   16:55
ADVISORY COUNCIL TO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: The problem was that many people for one reason or another did not want to identify themselves officially with a political party. “Even today organized labor isn't officially a part of the Democratic Party, yet I think most people would concede that most of the labor leaders are active in the Democratic Party in some form. So, I thought, if they feel more comfortable in meeting under a different flag, well, let them meet under a different flag and we'll be happy to talk to them under that flag.” In the late 1950s the Administrative Committee of the party did meet with an advisory committee of labor and another of businessmen, but “I don't think it was a success.”
Tape/Side   62/1
Time   20:00
MORE ON 1950 CONGRESSIONAL RACE
Scope and Content Note: All state Democratic candidates were very optimistic until the Korean War started in June. “I realized that was the end of that election.” One bad effect of this war was that it ended the focus on domestic issues. “A remarkable group of young people, mainly young lawyers who got involved in that campaign in the eighth district.” A lot of “top-flight” congressional candidates with effective organizations. The organizations were effective because of the work done lining up county candidates during the previous two years.
Tape/Side   62/1
Time   22:35
1950 DEMOCRATIC SENATE PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Four candidates who were optimistic about the party winning the senate seat. Optimistic because of Tom Fairchild's attorney general victory in 1948 and the fact that a Democrat could have been elected lieutenant governor that year also if a different candidate had run. Carl Thompson made a credible run in 1948. The four candidates all got into the campaign prior to the Korean War. “Frankly, from 1946 to 1950...everything was pretty much going towards the Democratic way, indicating that the efforts of the Democratic Organizing Committee were going to be successful in Wisconsin. And I think they probably would have been in 1950, if we hadn't gotten involved in the Korean War.” Dan Hoan told Reynolds that the only reason he entered the campaign “was because he didn't want organized labor to hand pick the candidate and they had picked...Sanderson.” Reynolds does not know why Dilweg entered the campaign; “I don't think he had any real support.” Reynolds supported Fairchild, “without any question...the strongest and most effective candidate.” Labor felt it could control the state if it united with farmers. In 1950 the two groups united on Sanderson. The perception at the time was that he was selected by organized labor “because the farm groups did not have...a statewide base.”
Tape/Side   62/1
Time   26:40
END OF TAPE 62, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   62/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   62/2
Time   00:30
VERY FEW BAD GUYS IN WISCONSIN POLITICS
Tape/Side   62/2
Time   01:35
CALIBER OF DEMOCRATIC LEADERS IN WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: Very qualified. Because of World War II, about eight years worth of qualified young people all graduated from the University of Wisconsin within a two year period. Democratic Party was wide open and several old New Dealers welcomed the young people. The main job was to replace the “post office” Democratic county chairmen. Anecdote about a Democratic Party county chairman who was proud because he accepted three hundred dollars for helping a person get a position with the post office but turned the money over to the party. Reynolds told him it was illegal “even though he was so honorable as to turn it into the party.”
Tape/Side   62/2
Time   05:15
DOC CHAIRMEN USUALLY PREVAILED IN CONFLICTS WITH STATUTORY CHAIRMEN IN MATTERS OF PATRONAGE
Scope and Content Note: Appointment of rural mailcarriers “was a burden.” Relieved when the law was changed to remove this patronage system.
Tape/Side   62/2
Time   05:55
DOC IN CHARGE OF APPOINTING NATIONAL COMMITTEEMAN AND COMMITTEE- WOMAN
Scope and Content Note: May have had to go through the formality of having the statutory committee confirm the selection.
Tape/Side   62/2
Time   06:50
IN BROWN COUNTY THE DOC PEOPLE SIMPLY WENT FROM PRECINCT TO PRECINCT TO MAKE SURE SUPPORTERS WERE ELECTED TO THE STATUTORY COMMITTEE
Tape/Side   62/2
Time   07:30
REYNOLDS AS DISTRICT DIRECTOR OF THE OFFICE OF PRICE STABILIZATION
Scope and Content Note: Appointed by President Truman after his defeat in the 1950 congressional race. An administrative position. Under the Hatch Act, “and I took that reasonably serious” and did not actively organize for the party during that period.
Tape/Side   62/2
Time   08:25
1952 SENATORIAL ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: Worked for Fairchild, although a close friend of Henry Reuss. “It was very difficult and painful at times to decide who to support because all these people were really personally very nice and good friends.” “Our friendships survived all these intramural contests, which is in itself quite remarkable.”
Tape/Side   62/2
Time   10:45
IMPACT OF ANTI-COMMUNIST ISSUE IN BROWN COUNTY
Scope and Content Note: The Green Bay Press-Gazette “got pretty irrational.” Inflamed the public. Catholic priest Father Rice went on the radio every night at 10 p.m. with a show called “Let's Think About It,” which was basically a tirade against Democrats for being soft on communism. “So I always think that the issue is more important then Joe. Joe McCarthy, I don't think, was ever pretty much of anything.” Even Robert Taft, supposedly an honorable man, said “If we have to use Joe McCarthy to win, we'll use Joe.” Anti-communism a difficult issue to deal with. Eisenhower had difficulty dealing with it, as is evidenced by his campaign speech in Wisconsin in 1952. This issue was never handled effectively by Democrats.
Tape/Side   62/2
Time   15:00
REYNOLDS, AFTER THE O.P.S. PRACTICED LAW IN GREEN BAY UNTIL 1958
Scope and Content Note: Politics was his hobby. Was pretty resigned during this period to the fact that Democrats would not win during these Republican years. “Fighting a holding action.”
Tape/Side   62/2
Time   16:00
JOE McCARTHY HELPED MAINTAIN THE ENTHUSIASM, 1948-1958, FOR DEMOCRATS
Scope and Content Note: “We had a real enemy...a common enemy...Joe McCarthy.” McCarthy united the Democrats and “brought us strength that we never had before.” “Because of Joe, we became respectable.... The effect of Joe was that a lot of people who normally would not have gotten active in the Democratic Party became active”. “I mean that kept us going. We would get together and denounce Joe McCarthy.... Almost became a preoccupation....” Reynolds did not get involved in the “Joe Must Go” movement. It was an effective propaganda technique, but it had no legal foundation.
Tape/Side   62/2
Time   18:25
THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN BROWN COUNTY IN THE 1950s
Scope and Content Note: Fortunes really slipped beginning in 1951 and 1952. Only three people at the meeting which elected him county chair. The anti-communist movement “was very rough in the Fox River Valley.” 1952 campaign in the Fox Valley was extremely bitter. The conservatives, “I've never seen them so vicious.”
Tape/Side   62/2
Time   20:40
WORK AS COUNTY CHAIR OF THE DOC
Scope and Content Note: Active in organizing campaigns and recruiting candidates. Turned the party “into a social, liberal club and it was pretty effective, as a matter of fact.” Mrs. Dillon was the spirit behind this. Brown County Democratic Party had a very close relationship with the state party “because we all thought of ourselves as part of it.” The Duffy brothers and Reynolds were close to the state level leaders. Overlap of people and ideological commitment.
Tape/Side   62/2
Time   23:00
PARTY FACTIONALISM IN THE 1950s
Scope and Content Note: Reynolds saw the Madison group as more idealistic since they were not the captives of an economic group. Organized labor, as Reynolds perceived it, was less idealistic. “I don't think anyone would really say that George Haberman was a great idealist.” He was influential, however, since there was so little money available to the party. Loosely speaking, Reynolds would divide the factions into two groups--liberals (Madison) and conservatives (Milwaukee and labor). “The conservative ones never had an effective spokes- man until Philleo Nash came to town.” The “Milwaukee ring” and “Madison ring” dichotomy goes back to the days of the old La Follette Progressive Period. “I really felt very bad when Wilkie lost” the state chairmanship to Nash. Reynolds was on the Administrative Committee at this time and believed in a strong chairman. Supported Nash's activities as chair, but did not support his reelection. Did not feel he was effective as chair.
Tape/Side   62/2
Time   27:40
END OF TAPE 62, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   63/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   63/1
Time   00:30
MORE ON PARTY FACTIONALISM IN THE 1950s
Scope and Content Note: The approach to handling problems differentiated the two factions more than real differences on issues. “I think the approach of George Haberman and Henry Maier in Milwaukee to the handling of problems was quite different than the approach of Jim Doyle and Tom Fairchild. And I think if anyone knows those four people, why you'd get a pretty good idea what I mean.” Reynolds has difficulty, however, in pointing to specific examples of differences on issues. Haberman “probably was a Republican at heart.” Liberals in the labor movement in those days were the Autoworkers (UAW) and the Steelworkers. They cooperated well with the Madison liberals. During the Kohler Strike, the UAW sent many staff people to Wisconsin who became active in the liberal wing of the Democratic Party. The building trades, however, were more conservative in their approach, more interested in job security and other bread and butter union issues rather than the unstated objective of the DOC, which was “to solve our social and political and economic problems in some form or manner similar to the Swedish model.” Harvey Kitzman, of the UAW, supported Horace Wilkie for party chair; “he was always part of our group.”
Tape/Side   63/1
Time   05:45
REYNOLDS' DECISION TO RUN FOR ATTORNEY GENERAL, 1958
Scope and Content Note: After running for Congress in 1950, he came to realize that once a person runs for Congress, it is difficult to run for a lesser office, and therefore he did not run for state senate or district attorney, even though he was interested in those offices. “I was never a reluctant candidate. No one ever drafted me for anything.” His only concern about running for attorney general in 1958 was whether his good friend Frank Nikolay, who had run for the office twice previously would be running again; Reynolds would not run against Nikolay. Reynolds, in 1956, had discussed with Proxmire Nikolay's independent candidacy against primary winner Robert La Follette Sucher and had urged Nikolay to enter the contest as an independent. Sucher “enjoyed a very bad reputation,” and had emotional and personal problems. Reynolds wanted to run for attorney general because “it's almost the ideal office for a lawyer. It's by far the most interesting job, in retrospect,...I ever had because it's in your field, it's in the legal field. It's a public policy job to a greater extent than is realized by most people. You're in the middle of politics and you can have a private life as well as a public life. As a governor, you have no private life at all.” Felt at home with the office because his father had been attorney general and he had worked in the attorney general's office as a student.
Tape/Side   63/1
Time   11:00
1958 ATTORNEY GENERAL ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: Primary opponent was Christ Seraphim. Shaped up as a Madison ring against Milwaukee ring contest. Labor endorsed Seraphim and the Milwaukee organization got behind Seraphim, and most everyone else supported Reynolds. “Not that it was such an important race, but it was the only race going.” Democrats felt they had a pretty good chance in 1958. McCarthy had died and Proxmire had replaced him. “The issue of communism that we found so difficult to deal with had diminished.” The support of Eisenhower and the Republicans was diminishing.
Tape/Side   63/1
Time   13:30
PROXMIRE'S 1957 SENATORIAL RACE
Scope and Content Note: Television was new, and Proxmire realized the value of television. Proxmire visited Green Bay at least once a month to appear on Green Bay television. Bought his own time “and he needed a straight man to ask him questions and I usually was the straight man.” Almost a captive audience because there was only one station in Green Bay for a while and everybody watched it. Reuss wanted to be the candidate to run for McCarthy's seat, so he came up with the idea of holding meetings around the state to sound out the opinions of people in the party as to whom should be the candidate. Reuss deferred to Zablocki, thinking he would never run for the office, but Zablocki surprised everyone and entered the contest. All the political activity in 1957 well prepared the party for the 1958 elections.
Tape/Side   63/1
Time   15:50
THE IMPORTANCE OF A POLITICAL PARTY TO A CANDIDATE
Scope and Content Note: Hard to appreciate. Candidates really know very few people, yet party activists turn out in every county to work for their candidates.
Tape/Side   63/1
Time   16:55
CLEM ZABLOCKI AND THE 1957 PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Not a Madison versus Milwaukee primary. Reynolds always thought highly of Zablocki. Zablocki was underrated “because he couldn't intellectualize with the intellectuals or with the newspaper people.” He usually voted right and worked against Joe McCarthy. “I felt sorry for Clem for being in that campaign.” Zablocki ran because “what happens in politics is that everyone that you talk to tells you you can win...and those that don't think you can win, don't say anything to you.” That is why politicians have to hire pollsters. There was a lot of sentiment in the party at the time that Proxmire, having lost three times, was unelectable and that Reuss was the strongest candidate. Reynolds supported Reuss during the “Sounding Board” meetings.
Tape/Side   63/1
Time   20:00
1954 DOYLE-PROXMIRE DEMOCRATIC GUBERNATORIAL PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Seemed to be a logical step for Doyle to run for governor, after being party chair. Around the state it was perceived in 1952 that Proxmire ran because no one else wanted to. Also, “Prox didn't come out of the old cadre of people who had gotten to know each other quite well in the DOC.” Doyle was confident of victory in the primary. Reynolds supported Doyle, but did not have much hope that he could win.
Tape/Side   63/1
Time   22:35
REYNOLDS ACHIEVEMENTS AS ATTORNEY GENERAL
Scope and Content Note: Refused to represent the Board of Regents when they fired a professor from Superior State College. And apparently this hadn't been done in Wisconsin. “...The bureaucrats...always felt they could do what they wanted to do and the attorney general's office would automatically represent them.” Reynolds felt the Regents were wrong. This was one of the first issues he faced. The attorney general's office had become rather passive. Another case involved the head of the Retirement Board denying a teacher in La Crosse her pension because the school board had not mailed in the money. “Number one, we did assert the role the attorney general's office is one to make sure that the state government complied with the law.” Many interesting cases. 1960 investigation of the money pumped into Wisconsin on behalf of Hubert Humphrey's presidential campaign, involving money from the Teamsters. “It was a very active office.”
Tape/Side   63/1
Time   26:10
1950 PRESIDENTIAL RACE IN WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: Reynolds supported John Kennedy. Met Kennedy during the 1957 Proxmire campaign when he came to Green Bay. Kennedy people contacted him later.
Tape/Side   63/1
Time   26:50
END OF TAPE 63, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   63/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   63/2
Time   00:30
MORE ON THE 1960 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN IN WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: Kennedy people contacted him in 1958 before he had announced for attorney general. He wrote back saying he felt it would not be to Kennedy's advantage to have another Irish Catholic heading his campaign in Wisconsin, and suggested Ivan Nestingen, mayor of Madison. Unbeknownist to Reynolds, Pat Lucey was making the same suggestion to the Kennedy people. Ideologically “I think...I was probably more comfortable with Hubert Humphrey than with Jack Kennedy.” Recognized Kennedy's political magnatism and his electability, however. Supported Kennedy on the basis that he could be elected and Humphrey probably could not. Reynolds was confident going into the 1960 convention that Kennedy would get the nomination because he was the only electable candidate. “The idea of nominating people that you can't elect, that's something that we didn't do in the Democratic Party until years later.”
Tape/Side   63/2
Time   03:40
SALES TAX
Scope and Content Note: Still favors a progressive tax, but, practically speaking, “today I don't think that you can run a society with a progressive tax because people revolt.” In 1962, he ran for governor in support of repealing the sales tax, or at least preventing its expansion. The problem was that its repeal would require substitution of another kind of tax.
Tape/Side   63/2
Time   05:45
ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS GOVERNOR
Scope and Content Note: “To get through the increase in the budget that we got through was a tremendous achievement.” Went all out to expand the state college system facilities because of the rapid growth in Wiscon- sin's school age population. Also, expanded the institutions for the mentally ill and the retarded. Despite a battle with the Republican legislature, “we got the budget we wanted.”
Tape/Side   63/2
Time   07:15
DISAPPOINTMENTS AS GOVERNOR
Scope and Content Note: Unable to modernize Wisconsin's highway system. Unable to get the Aragon Laboratories nuclear research facility located in Wisconsin. Went all out to get Aragon, “but we were competing with Mayor Daley. I came home with the Hoan bridge--every politician in Milwaukee takes credit for the bridge, but I came home with the bridge--and Daley got the Aragon Laboratories.” Kennedy “was a delightful person to talk to about things because, having come out of Massachusetts, he understood a lot about the realities of government, politics. You got to have something for your people.” Kennedy asked where the Hoan bridge went to; Reynolds said, “'Well, the problem is it doesn't go any place. It goes through Clem Zablocki's district.' So, he understood that.” Reynolds still feels Wisconsin foolishly promotes tourism without providing adequate roads for tourists.
Tape/Side   63/2
Time   09:40
NO EXPLANATION FOR HIS DEFEAT IN 1964
Tape/Side   63/2
Time   10:10
APPOINTED FEDERAL JUDGE
Scope and Content Note: President Johnson did not want to appoint Jim Doyle or John Reynolds, but senators usually control these matters and the two Wisconsin senators told Johnson they wanted Doyle and Reynolds.
Tape/Side   63/2
Time   11:35
RETROSPECTIVE ANALYSIS OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: The mobility of people and capital in the United States was unforeseen. This prevents Wisconsin from having a tax program in the state which is significantly different from the other states. “So that the role of the state government in actually distinguishing itself in terms of tax policy, and social policy, and educational policy, is a lot less than we thought it was.” The question of civil rights was one which divided Wisconsin Democrats, with the Milwaukee group being resistant and much less liberal than the Madison group. Increase in Wisconsin's black population was another unforeseen problem and “we certainly haven't been able to cope with that very well.” “The greatest tragedy of my generation is the decline of public education.” It used to be assumed that Wisconsin would have the best educational system in the country, but somewhere along the line it was decided that the state could no longer afford to have the best educational system.
Tape/Side   63/2
Time   16:15
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/64-65
Subseries: Patrick Lucey, 1985 April 18
Note
Tape/Side   64/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   64/1
Time   00:30
LUCEY'S EARLY ACTIVITIES AS STATE CHAIR OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY WERE AIMED TOWARD THE 1958 ELECTIONS
Scope and Content Note: His goal was simple: “I wanted to make the Democratic Party the majority party in Wisconsin.” Immediately began recruiting candidates for the 1958 campaign. Set out to revitalize the county organizations. Shortly after he became chair, the party held a retreat at Wisconsin Dells. There, “without too much of a hard sell, I got John Reynolds thinking about running for attorney general.” Felt the party had gone through a period of neglect. “In fact, if Proxmire had not won that special election in '57, I think the party was about ready to fall apart. It had been a long hard struggle for more than a decade and I think an awful lot of people were ready to just throw in the towel on the thing. And, of course, the Proxmire win put everything in a new perspective.” Lucey put people in the field to recruit candidates in order to insure a full legislative slate and as many county candidates as possible. Lucey persuaded Philleo Nash, whom he had defeated for party chair “in a rather bitter fight,” to run for lieutenant governor.
Tape/Side   64/1
Time   04:15
THE BREAK THROUGH IN 1958
Scope and Content Note: One factor was the organizational work done between November 1957 and November 1958. Also, there was a Democratic national trend. Nelson did not think he really had a chance to be elected Governor in 1958. “It all fell into place.”
Tape/Side   64/1
Time   06:35
HIRING OF FIELD DIRECTORS
Scope and Content Note: Hired two field directors and a fund raiser. Paid for by an increase in membership and also creation of the “Century Club,” wherein people paid one hundred dollars a year instead of the regular dues. “And, you did some of this on the cuff. You have to be a little daring.” Hired Norman Clapp and Jim Magellas as field organizers. They had both been defeated in congressional races in 1958 and both wanted to run again in 1960, “and in the meantime, they were sort of at liberty. So I persuaded them to come on board as fulltime field organizers, but I divided the state from north to south so that Norm, who had run in the third district, would have the third district as part of his area of responsibility, whereas Jim Magellas, who had run in the sixth district, would have the eastern half of the state and therefore would include his district.” Thus, they could do work for the party and still maintain contacts in their own congressional districts. Their jobs were to build membership, raise membership money through the “Century Club,” speak at county meetings, and recruit candidates.
Tape/Side   64/1
Time   09:00
ROLE OF THE PARTY IN THE 1960 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN IN WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: Lucey instructed Clapp and Magellas to help both Kennedy and Humphrey. “The Kennedy people particularly couldn't believe this.” The party in Massachusetts was not very strong; there “you were either a Kennedy person or you weren't. And if you were not, then you weren't to be trusted. But it worked out rather well.” Clapp probably voted for Kennedy and Magellas for Humphrey. “What I wanted to have happen--obviously, I wanted Kennedy to win, but I didn't want the party to be torn to shreds by the contest. It seemed to me if the party, if the paid staff of the party was helpful to both sides, then they would be in a position to pull the party together after that primary.” Lucey felt the primary produced “some unhappiness within each camp.” He and Ivan Nestingen both supported Kennedy, but “somehow we were never as good a friends after that campaign as we had been before. In a sense the primary was divisive within camps.” On the other hand, Harvey Kitzman and Lucey were on opposite sides during the primary, but came out of it closer friends than previously.
Tape/Side   64/1
Time   12:00
HOW LUCEY CAME TO KNOW AND SUPPORT JACK KENNEDY
Scope and Content Note: Herman Jessen introduced Lucey to Jack Kennedy at the 1952 convention. At that convention Lucey was an alternate delegate and wore a Kefauver hat, but had a Stevenson badge in his pocket. “I was loyal to Kefauver so long as he was in the running. And when I ran into Jack Kennedy at the bar at the Stockyard Inn, it turned out that Jack was already working hard for Stevenson. And so we had a rather unpleasant exchange.” Lucey told Kennedy that he understood the Stevenson people were prepared to accept a southern vice president if that was needed to get a majority of the delegates, “and he told me in no uncertain terms that the Stevenson people would reach in any direction they had to to get a majority of the delegates and if the northern liberals didn't like it, why it was just tough. And when he referred to northern liberals, it was sort of in the third person as though he didn't consider himself one of them. And so I walked away rather unhappy with Jack Kennedy.” In 1957, Kennedy aide Ted Sorenson found an excuse to contact Lucey right after his election as state chair, “and it was obvious that he was using that as an excuse to establish a working relationship with the new chairman of the party.” Most of Lucey's contacts remained with Ted Sorenson. In the spring of 1959, Lucey told Sorenson he would help the Kennedy campaign, but short of a public endorsement. Lucey tried to convince himself that the “Irish Catholic thing was not a factor, but I suppose it had some impact.” Rationalized to himself that while Humphrey was more liberal than Kennedy, Kennedy was the most liberal person who could be nominated. “And that to deny Jack Kennedy a win here, would probably throw the thing to Lyndon Johnson and most of us at that point did not want Lyndon Johnson to be president and I think would have been shocked if someone had suggested that, if Jack Kennedy got the nomination, that he would pick Lyndon for vice president.” Stevenson “had had two good shots and ... the torch should pass.”
Tape/Side   64/1
Time   16:40
FINANCIAL RELATIONSHIP OF DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF WISCONSIN AND THE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE
Scope and Content Note: “We rarely paid dues to the national organization.”
Tape/Side   64/1
Time   19:50
MILWAUKEE COUNTY DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Ran its own headquarters. Did not rely on state headquarters for service. “What really was irritating was that some of the ward organizations in Milwaukee were quite wealthy and they existed like clubs. And the fact that a political campaign occurred every two years, really was a bit of annoyance to them ... The last thing they would do would be to write a check for five hundred dollars to the local assembly candidate” even though they might have treasuries of four or five thousand dollars. They existed separate and apart from any campaign effort. Nor would they help pick up part of the Milwaukee dues to the state organization. “They had existed prior to the DOC; and they were some personalties who enjoyed meeting each month with their friends in the back room of a Polish tavern on the southside and that sort of thing. They were really kind of an anachronism, I think.”
Tape/Side   64/1
Time   23:20
ADMINISTRATIVE COMMITTEE SUPPORT FOR LUCEY
Scope and Content Note: “We had our ups and downs.” Dispute over allocation of delegate strength to the 1960 national convention. Lucey lost that one. “And I think that was the only vote that I ever lost on the administrative committee in the six years that I was chairman. And Bobby Kennedy was very upset with me.” Lucey would call people the day before the administrative committee meeting to make sure he had the votes for something he felt was important. If the support was not there, he would not bring it up at the meeting.
Tape/Side   64/1
Time   25:50
DOES NOT RECALL WHETHER AN ADVISORY COMMITTEE TO THE ADMINISTRATIVE COMMITTEE WAS EVER SET UP
Tape/Side   64/1
Time   27:35
END OF TAPE 64, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   64/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   64/2
Time   00:30
RELATIONSHIPS OF ELECTED DEMOCRATS TO THE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: “We never seemed to have any money to help legislative candidates.” Had schools to teach candidates how to write press releases and the like. Sometimes field representatives would help candidates set up campaigns, especially in special elections. “But we never seemed to be able to write any checks.” The one exception was 1962 when Lucey was able to raise the price of the Jefferson-Jackson Day Dinner to one hundred dollars a ticket. This was also the only time he recalls being able to give any money to the national committee, but that contribution was a condition of getting President Kennedy as the speaker. Because of this dinner, the party was able to contribute to congressional candidates. “So...our work with legislative candidates was pretty much in-kind assistance rather than cash assistance.” In the early days sitting legislators had a closer relationship with the party than they did later. Lucey had a very close relationship with the party when he was in the legislature, partly because the legislature was so understaffed. “Bill Proxmire, who was a reporter for the Capital Times, agreed that he could do some moonlighting for us. So Bill and I would usually meet early in the week and decide on the subject of a press release. Then he would draw up the press release. And then we would meet later in the week and decide which legislator to attribute the quotes to and so forth. Then we would take it over to Esther Kaplan at the party headquarters. She would go down and run off the addresses from the REA file of weekly and daily newspapers and we would send out this once-a-week press release from the Democratic caucus That was really a very close hand-in-glove relationship with the party.” As the number of Democratic legislators grew and as the legislature became better staffed, “they tended to draw away from the party headquarters.” On the other hand, legislators gradually came to have more and more to say in the writing of platforms. Today most of the policy committees at the party convention are headed by legislators, who bring staff along with them. However, legislators also came to feel less of an obligation to introduce in the legislature all the planks of the party platform; and, indeed, for a while they felt the party platform was so liberal they could not run on it and therefore met after the primary at the stutory committee meeting and drew up their own platform. The DFL in Minnesota, however, because of its early creation of interest caucuses, became “a source of embarrassment to Wendy Anderson when he was governor. I didn't have that same feeling about the Democratic Party over here.”
Tape/Side   64/2
Time   07:35
PARTY CHAIR LUCEY'S DIFFERENCES WITH GOVERNOR NELSON
Scope and Content Note: “I think a lot of it was a clash of personalities. I never quite understood that.... There was never any thought that our careers were going to lead to some sort of giant confrontation at some point.... There was never any likelihood that I would compete with Gaylord to be governor or to run for senator, anything like that, which is the kind of circumstance that causes hostility between an elected official and a party leader.” In terms of issues, Lucey was not ready to give up the party's stance against the sales tax as soon as Nelson was, “but once he took that stand, I refrained from making any public comment on the sales tax.... I somehow felt that the party chairman was a nuts and bolts man and, once you elected a governor, he was the leader of the party as far as the public issues were concerned. I think that part of the hostility came out of the Kennedy thing but there was some even before that.” Lucey defeated Philleo Nash without Nelson's support, but there was “no reason why he should have gotten his hands dirty in that kind of a contest” since he intended to run for governor the following year. Proxmire, on the other hand, left no doubt where he stood on the Lucey-Nash contest. “I think Gaylord miscalculated and assumed that I would not succeed in beating Philleo. And I heard a report that he was rather upset that he had miscalculated. But, during that campaign there was a certain strangeness between the party headquarters and the Nelson campaign.” During the campaign Lucey saw very little of Nelson, though he kept in touch with various Nelson aides. “I used to stay in touch with Esther Kaplan. In fact, I remember at one point, Esther and I shifted some money from the party over to the Nelson campaign in the hope that in the last days money would come in that would pay it back. Well, it didn't work out that way and finally they agreed to let ... the party put on the inaugural fundraising dinner so that we could recover the money that we had invested in the campaign....” Nelson never visited party headquarters after he was elected. Took some effort to get Nelson to subscribe to the Century Club, “when actually it should have been just a matter of course that the governor, the head of the party, would want to promote that sort of thing. And then we used to get into some awful tangles involving Milwaukee.” Lucey was very opposed to Nelson's appointment of Christ Seraphim as judge. Howard Meister, Milwaukee County party chair, “was a real bone of contention between us.” Lucey felt threatened by Nelson's appointment of Meister to the Real Estate Board because Lucey was a realtor and Meister was a “very evil man and I had visions of his trying to destroy all my business in retaliation for political differences.” Lucey worked hard to get John Reynolds to run for attorney general in 1958 and openly supported him in the primary against Christ Seraphim, but Nelson felt Lucey should have been neutral. Lucey's later opposition to the appointment of Seraphim as judge was not done publicly. “The Milwaukee thing was a very serious sore point between us.” The Milwaukee party, headed by Meister, opposed the 1962 Jefferson-Jackson Day Dinner for which Lucey had arranged President Kennedy as the speaker. John Schmitt, of the state AFL-CIO, was making speeches against the dinner. The dinner was a success anyway, raised 200,000 dollars, “unheard of in those days.” Once it became clear the dinner would be a success, Nelson wanted to introduce the president. “At that point--I tried to say this as politely as I could--but I told him that I had decided that I would introduce the president. I had done all the work on the dinner and I thought that that was one small honor that I would reserve for myself. As I recall those days now, it's hard to appreciate the degree of the rancor that existed in some of those situations.”
Tape/Side   64/2
Time   16:05
RANCOR BETWEEN MILWAUKEE AND MADISON
Scope and Content Note: Milwaukee people, like Henry Maier resented the “intellectual elite” in Madison. Milwaukee had the strength in terms of votes, and the Madison intellectuals “couldn't even deliver the west side of Madison” but still had a very strong influence in the party. Jim Doyle was the intellectual leader of the party. “Some of the intellectual leaders in Dane County, I think, did not suffer fools very well and regarded some of their colleagues in Milwaukee as being in that category.” Lucey's differences with Milwaukee were partly based on this personal opposition to Meister and Seraphim and partly because he did not feel Milwaukee paid its proper share of the costs of running the state party. “Maybe I wasn't always as sensitive to the needs of organized labor as I might have been.” Had a very good relationship with the UAW, but an arms-length relationship with the state AFL-CIO and “of course, we never reached an accommodation with the Teamsters. They were always sort of in the Republican camp.”
Tape/Side   64/2
Time   18:40
LUCEY'S OPPOSITION TO THE APPOINTMENT OF SERAPHIM AS JUDGE
Scope and Content Note: “I thought that he was tempermentally unfit.” Egotistical and very emotional. “He did become a very serious embarrassment as years went on.”
Tape/Side   64/2
Time   19:30
NELSON'S RELATIONSHIP WITH THE PARTY IN MILWAUKEE
Scope and Content Note: Nelson “sort of feared Milwaukee.... Viewed Milwaukee as very large and very strange and I think that he wanted people to sort of handle the Milwaukee end and relieve him of the need for really getting terribly involved in that strange morass down there that he knew so little about. And so, I think that when very vocal and self-confident people came forward, like Meister and Seraphim, that he tended to rely on them to handle Milwaukee for him; and, in fact, Seraphim, for a while, was designated as the governor's Milwaukee representative.... Vernon Thomson, before him, had had a similar relationship with another Greek lawyer, Pete Kondos....” Kondos “came to no good end either. I think he finally did time for income tax evasion.” Seraphim was eager to replace Kondos in that role once a Democrat was elected governor. “The rivalry went back to their youth in the Greek community.”
Tape/Side   64/2
Time   22:35
OPPOSITION TO THE 1962 JEFFERSON-JACKSON DAY DINNER
Scope and Content Note: John Schmitt mainly opposed it because of the increased cost--one hundred dollars. Lucey could never understand why the Milwaukee people outside labor opposed this dinner.
Tape/Side   64/2
Time   24:00
ANECDOTE ABOUT THE 1958 JEFFERSON-JACKSON DAY DINNER
Scope and Content Note: Jack Kennedy was the speaker. Ted Sorenson and Lucey drafted a letter, to be signed by Kennedy, to about 3000 likely ticket purchasers. This was Lucey's first introduction to letter-signing machines. Really helped sell tickets. People for years afterward still treasured their letter, assuming it contained a John Kennedy autograph.
Tape/Side   64/2
Time   25:25
MORE ON LUCEY'S CHAIRMANSHIP OF THE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: During his tenure, Democrats won every major statewide race, except for the presidency in 1960, “which was one I wanted to win more than anything else.” Figured turning the chairmanship over to Louis Hanson, a Nelson man, would bring the party together. Felt six years was enough; his business had suffered a little from his party activity.
Tape/Side   64/2
Time   27:05
LUCEY RACE FOR LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR, 1964
Scope and Content Note: Reynolds insisted, “which I thought was a kind of dumb idea, but he felt that that would be the way that I could help the ticket the most.... And then I was really dumbfounded on election night when I won and he lost.”
Tape/Side   64/2
Time   27:30
REYNOLDS DEFEAT IN 1964
Scope and Content Note: Probably due mainly to his failure to keep his 1962 campaign promise of repealing the sales tax. Was finally forced into a position of either expanding the sales tax or closing down the University. He took the responsible position.
Tape/Side   64/2
Time   28:35
END OF TAPE 64, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   65/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   65/1
Time   00:30
MORE ON THE DEFEAT OF JOHN REYNOLDS IN 1964
Scope and Content Note: May have been hurt by running as Lyndon Johnson's proxy in the Wisconsin presidential primary that year against George Wallace. The press made a big deal out of Wallace's showing. The remarkable thing about that primary, however, is that Reynolds got more votes for president than any candidate has received before or since in a presidential primary. Nevertheless, Reynolds attacked Wallace as a racist in that primary and that may have cost him some blue collar votes. when he ran for governor. The sales tax, however, was the big issue in the gubernatorial race. “I never dreamed that he could lose while I was winning.”
Tape/Side   65/1
Time   03:10
THE 1962 CAMPAIGN AND THE SALES TAX
Scope and Content Note: Nelson people were offended that Reynolds was running on a platform to repeal Nelson's sales tax.. “I am not at all sure that Gaylord could have been elected governor in '62.” Lucey feels that Reynolds running against the sales tax actually helped Nelson's chances running for senator by removing the sales tax issue from Nelson's campaign.
Tape/Side   65/1
Time   05:35
MORE ON THE 1964 ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: Not only had Reynolds not repealed the sales tax, but he expanded it. The sales tax actually was the fault of the Republican legislature and Reynolds tried to use this in his campaign, but “he's not the great communicator that Ronald Reagan is.”
Tape/Side   65/1
Time   06:10
1966 GUBERNATORIAL ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: “Bloodletting” primary, mainly in Dane County between Lucey and David Carley, who today are good friends. “David does have a capacity to go for the jugular....” The Capital Times “was really the villain of the piece. They had never forgiven me for my support of Jack Kennedy, Miles McMillin particularly. So, I was really savaged in that campaign by the Cap Times.” Lucey was “clobbered” in the primary in Dane County and the surrounding counties, “and it showed up in the general election.... I don't think, in fairness, that any Democrat could have defeated Warren Knowles in '66. He had only been in office two years. Most people feel... that a governor is entitled to a second term.” Knowles avoided a tax increase in his first term. Also, it was not a good year for Democrats. But even if Knowles had been more vulnerable and if it had been a Democratic year, “I think that the effect of the primary would have been devastating to my chances.” Lost to Knowles in the general election by over 100,000 votes.
Tape/Side   65/1
Time   08:30
LUCEY'S SUPPORT FOR ANTI-VIETNAM WAR CANDIDATES IN 1968 HELPED HIM IN HIS GUBERNATORIAL RACE IN 1970
Scope and Content Note: “Having been for Jack Kennedy was one thing, but supporting Bobby in '68, somehow was almost a cleansing exercise because he was so strong against the war. And then after Bobby was killed, my going to Chicago to be floor manager for Gene McCarthy, I think really won back the support that I had lost in the past in Dane County.”
Tape/Side   65/1
Time   09:35
ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS GOVERNOR (1971-1977)
Scope and Content Note: “I don't want to sound egotistical, but there are so many it's hard to know where to start.” Will be most remembered for the merger of the two university systems. Effort to equalize the burden and benefits of taxes so they were distributed according to need, rather than origin. A more even distribution of mental health care and health care generally. Equalization of the school tax. “All of these reforms fall under a sort of general category of trying to achieve equity.”
Tape/Side   65/1
Time   13:25
DISAPPOINTMENTS AS GOVERNOR
Scope and Content Note: “The last battle that I lost was in trying to achieve more accountability in public elementary and secondary education. We still have these arguments about competency testing of both the students and of teachers in our public schools. And I was out on the cutting edge of that....”
Tape/Side   65/1
Time   14:15
MORE ON ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS GOVERNOR
Scope and Content Note: Told the Republican legislative leadership before the 1974 election that he would not run for reelection if they would pass “my whole legislative program that year.” Had raised some money for a third term, but “I really felt a little uncomfortable about it because I didn't have a program. Almost everything that I had promised to do, I had achieved. I'm sure I could have thought of some good reasons for electing me to a third term, but I would have to scratch around.”
Tape/Side   65/1
Time   15:10
LUCEY AS AMBASSADOR TO MEXICO
Scope and Content Note: Carter called, and Lucey thought he was calling about the trade delegation to China which Lucey had arranged, but he asked him to be ambassador to Mexico. Took about a week to make up his mind, then agreed to do it, “partly because the agenda was pretty well accomplished here and I did have mixed feelings about running for a third term and there were those who argued that I couldn't be elected to a third term.” Has no regrets about the ambassadorship. “Had I been president, I'm not sure I would have sent Pat Lucey to Mexico.” Spanish is so common in the United States, someone who speaks the language should be appointed ambassador to Mexico and other Spanish-speaking countries. It is hard to say if he would have been much more effective if he had spoken Spanish. His successor, a Chicano academic, “all reports indicate that he was a disaster,” partly because he assumed that knowing the language, he also knew the culture. The Mexican foreign minister, with whom Lucey is still a good friend, may have influenced Carter's decision to appoint Lucey because he had indicated to the Carter administration that he wanted a politician, not a diplomat, as ambassador, “and he particularly did not want a hyphenated American.” Mexicans feel Chicanos left the country of their own accord and they would rather have a Yankee as ambassador. Carter probably did not realize it, but Lucey had had a lifelong interest in Latin America. Spent thirty-three months in Puerto Rico during World War II and since then read extensively about Latin America. Had only been to Mexico twice before the ambassadorship.
Tape/Side   65/1
Time   20:45
LEFT THE CARTER ADMINISTRATION AND CAMPAIGNED FOR TED KENNEDY FOR THE 1980 DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINATION
Scope and Content Note: Not really a break on issues “but I thought that, as president, he was just a disaster. I was convinced that he could not be reelected and probably shouldn't be reelected.” Probably would have left the ambassadorship even if the Ted Kennedy campaign had not been taking shape then. Being ambassador to Mexico was like being on a “rollercoaster” and he had decided to leave when things were looking good. Carter's visit to Mexico in 1978 was viewed as a disaster by the press because of a remark he made, but it actually was a pretty successful trip. That trip got the United States and Mexico back to the bargaining table in negotiations involving Mexico's natural gas supplies. However, the image was one of strained relations because of a tasteless joke made by Carter and the tongue lashing the Mexican president gave him. In September of 1979, there was a successful meeting of the two presidents and the natural gas agreement was reached. Those things accomplished, Lucey felt he could resign in November of 1979. Carter became “very exercised” about keeping Lucey as ambassador or in some other capacity with the administration. Even asked Lucey to go to Madrid to participate in the Helsinki Agreement talks. “It was so obvious he wasn't asking me to go to Madrid because he thought I would be the best person to negotiate. It was to keep me out of the Kennedy campaign.”
Tape/Side   65/1
Time   24:30
LUCEY JOINED THE JOHN ANDERSON CAMPAIGN AS THE VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE
Scope and Content Note: The Democratic convention came up with a “loyalty oath,” pledging all delegates to support of the party's nominee. Lucey knew by this time that Kennedy could not get the nomination and left the convention rather than submit to the “loyalty oath.” He had already made up his mind that he would support Anderson over Carter. Tried to leave the convention quietly, but there was “quite a bit of fanfare.” Anderson people, who had been in touch with Lucey earlier, got in touch with him right after he left the convention and asked him to co-chair the Anderson campaign. Lucey refused. Lucey and his wife then left for a vacation in Canada and returned to several phone messages from Anderson. “So for ten weeks I conducted a very strenuous campaign for vice president, knowing that it would take at least a double miracle to have it happen.” Admired Anderson from the time of the Iowa debates. Felt Anderson and his platform were the best available that year. “I must say that I was a little relieved that our effort did not make the difference. If we turned out to play a spoiler role, I think I'd a been a bit chagrined.” Denied a few states to Carter, but not enough to make the difference. “I thought there was an outside chance that the Carter thing would just collapse totally.”
Tape/Side   65/1
Time   28:55
END OF TAPE 65, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   65/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   65/2
Time   00:30
CONCLUDING REMARKS ON THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: Probably would not be possible “today to develop the kind of party that we put together in the 1950s.” Value of political parties have been minimized during his lifetime. Party machine charity and the patronage of the post office, while replaced by good reforms, have weakened political parties. Advent of television gave candidates the ability to reach into the homes of voters and “eliminate the middleman.” Campaign finance changes, with the creation of political action committees, provide for contributions which side-step the party. Democratic Party in Wisconsin today has been watered down, “but the very fact that it exists at all, I think, is a tribute to the very selfless people who worked all those years to develop a citizens' party in this state.” Fourteen or fifteen hundred delegates still meet at Democratic Party of Wisconsin conventions, even knowing that they cannot endorse candidates and the candidates can ignore the platform if they so choose. “The very fact that that process continues, I think, is evidence that the Democratic Party of Wisconsin has survived its most serious challenge, and that is the challenge that comes when success occurs. And for what it's worth, I think that the work that went into that period still is bearing some fruit. And certainly at the time that all of this was going on, I think it had a very salutary impact on public life in Wisconsin and brought about the two party system that we have now.”
Tape/Side   65/2
Time   05:05
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/66-68
Subseries: Henry Maier, 1985 April 25
Note: Access online.
Tape/Side   66/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   66/1
Time   00:30
BIOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Raised by maternal grandmother in Springfield, Ohio. Father died when he was eleven months old. Mother lived in Milwaukee, which was his legal residence. Grandparents were very interested in “public life.” Attended many political meetings with his grandparents. Grandmother encouraged him to get into “public life” and on her death bed at age 103, she expressed disappointment that he was only a mayor. “'I raised you to be no less than a governor.'” Active in forensics in grade and high school. Active in athletics--football, basketball, and boxing. When he entered the University of Wisconsin-Madison, he took his stepfather's last name. Original name was “'Nelke'..., which means 'carnation' in German. The name 'Maier' was actually more appropriate because that means 'the leader of the village.'” Never knew any Nelkes because there was a family dispute over who should raise him when his father died. Grandparents were “devotees” of Franklin Roosevelt. Grandmother a teacher; grandfather a farmer who was driven off the farm by the Depression.
Tape/Side   66/1
Time   05:45
COLLEGE YEARS
Scope and Content Note: Attended UW Extension in Milwaukee for two years, 1936-38. Was president of the student council as a freshmen and was the school's orator. As a freshman, lost a speech contest to UW-Madison senior, Jim Doyle, 95 percent to 96 percent. Active in the 'Roosevelt for President” Club on campus in 1936 in Milwaukee. Also active locally with the Progressives and the Socialists. At Madison was a member of the League for Liberal Action. Also, in 1940 for a while was active in the 'Wilkie for President' Club, which he abandoned in the later stages of that campaign. Became skeptical of Phil La Follette when he tried to launch the National Progressives of America. Flirtation with Wilkie was the result of his anti-war feelings. Voted for Roosevelt in 1940. Belonged to a fraternity in Madison because it provided him employment. Worked summers as a construction laborer and a janitor. Graduated 1940.
Tape/Side   66/1
Time   14:45
WORLD WAR II
Scope and Content Note: After graduation, took some graduate courses, got married, had a child. In the Navy was trained as a supply officer. Stationed on a destroyer in the Pacific. The first squadron into Hiroshima after the security forces.
Tape/Side   66/1
Time   18:15
INSURANCE BUSINESS
Scope and Content Note: Was hired by an insurance company out of college. Taught agents. Became an expert in comprehensive policies. Hired by another company prior to World War II. After the War, had his own general insurance agency, which he ran throughout his years in the legislature.
Tape/Side   66/1
Time   19:25
WAS A DEMOCRAT FROM THE TIME HE RETURNED FROM THE WAR
Scope and Content Note: Supported McMurray for senator and Hoan for governor in 1946. Voted in the Democratic primary in 1946.
Tape/Side   66/1
Time   22:25
RAN FOR MAYOR OF MILWAUKEE IN 1948
Scope and Content Note: “My immediate image when I returned from war was not necessarily a partisan image.... My interest at that point in my life was largely urban and Milwaukee.” Was not yet 29 years old when he ran for mayor.
Tape/Side   66/1
Time   23:00
EARLY INVOLVEMENT IN THE DOC
Scope and Content Note: “I was involved from day one.” Mayoral campaign cost him his home. Became chairman of the First Ward Democratic Club. Close friends with Tehan and Biemiller.
Tape/Side   66/1
Time   25:05
STATUS OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN MILWAUKEE, 1948
Scope and Content Note: Statutory organization in place. DOC in Milwaukee did not have the big advantage that Madison had--the backing of a progressive newspaper, the Capital Times. Closest thing Milwaukee got to being backed by a newspaper was the active role of Vi Lomoe, wife of the executive editor of the Milwaukee Journal. She and Maier started a party newspaper in order to put forth a program. Party committeemen at the time “could care less” about a program. “I wanted to introduce a programmatic approach into the party.” Worked every night and weekend for ten months in an effort to break the power of the statutory committeemen. When he felt he had laid the ground work, he called a meeting of the committeemen to ask them “to sign over their powers.” Tehan and Hoan came and told him it was not yet time. “And I said, 'It's tonight or never. I've given ten months to this. I can't give any more time to this.'”
Tape/Side   66/1
Time   28:10
END OF TAPE 66, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   66/2
Time   28:45
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   66/2
Time   29:40
WINNING DEMOCRATIC PARTY POWER FOR THE DOC IN MILWAUKEE
Scope and Content Note: Dan Roan said, “'I never thought I'd see those committeemen sign away their powers.'” They signed over their powers in exchange for a promise of having one of the three votes allotted to each ward. Maier was provisional chairman of the Milwaukee DOC at this time.
Tape/Side   66/2
Time   30:35
ORGANIZING THE DOC IN MILWAUKEE
Scope and Content Note: Maier was elected chairman. Set it up with one chairman for each senatorial district, which constituted the executive committee. This was a manageable group, but the next chairman changed the size of the executive committee to twenty-one, “some ungodly number.”
Tape/Side   66/2
Time   32:15
MORE ON WINNING CONTROL OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN MILWAUKEE
Scope and Content Note: Key meeting was held in early 1949. Much of the preparatory work was done through the newspaper he and Vi Lomoe were producing, harping away at the need for a central organization, the DOC. Later on the Milwaukee Journal passed a rule that no employee's spouse could work in direct political action. Vi later worked on Maier's staff. Her husband, according to many, was the spirit of the Journal, “a very, very tough, objective newsman.” The newspaper Maier and Vi Lomoe put out espoused “a doctrine, because there was a lack of doctrine and we were also relating that doctrine to the necessity to have a central organization, which we could not have if the committeemen were going to run it, were in control.” Maier always program-oriented rather than personality-oriented.
Tape/Side   66/2
Time   37:35
OTHER DOC ACTIVISTS IN MILWAUKEE IN 1948 AND EARLY 1949
Scope and Content Note: Eddie Mesheski. Myron Gorden. Andy Biemiller and his secretary, the future Jean Lucey. “Some of the best friends I had were Bob Tehan and Andy Biemiller and Dan Hoan, a pretty good group to know when you were just cutting your eyeteeth in this business.”
Tape/Side   66/2
Time   38:50
MILWAUKEE'S DEMOCRATIC LEGISLATORS AT THE TIME IGNORED THE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Thus, they paid little attention to the DOC organizing work Maier was doing. “The party was very much handicapped, particularly in this area because you had big labor, big business, big communications in monopoly form. Where the hell is there room for people running a party who couldn't really get any substantial financing and had no patronage.” That was one of the reasons Maier emphasized program so much. “Because that's all it really had as a weapon.”
Tape/Side   66/2
Time   41:00
1948 MAYORAL RACE
Scope and Content Note: Some of his best friends had managed Carl Zeidler's campaign, especially Bob Block, “who was the real genius of the group.” Formed the New Milwaukee Committee, which “took the first housing survey, that I know of, in the inner core.” Maier finished sixth out of fifteen, right behind Dan Hoan. The new Milwaukee Committee was made up of “post-World War II youngsters.” The committee dissolved after the mayoral election.
Tape/Side   66/2
Time   46:40
THE WISCONSIN DEMOCRAT
Scope and Content Note: Does not recall much about it, but he was very much in favor of a publication. Dan Hoan survived as mayor in Milwaukee for so long because of the Leader. “I always felt that you had to have a basic house organ of some kind, particularly in politics.”
Tape/Side   66/2
Time   49:15
MORE ON ORGANIZING MILWAUKEE COUNTY FOR THE DOC
Scope and Content Note: Maier took squadrons out door to door trying to get membership. “We had a different situation. Madison could almost start bright and glistening and new, but we couldn't swing that kind of a start here.” Today, Milwaukee has some bright young legislators who are starting to challenge Dane County. “History is reasserting itself.”
Tape/Side   66/2
Time   50:30
ELECTION TO THE STATE SENATE IN 1950
Scope and Content Note: Tehan's seat. The question was whether he would run for lieutenant governor or state senator. Chose the state senate seat because he wanted to win.
Tape/Side   66/2
Time   51:30
1950 DEMOCRATIC SENATORIAL PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Supported William Sanderson “because I was a protege of Andy Biemiller's and he was supporting Sanderson.... We were talking about farm-labor party representation at that time.” Dan Hoan ran because he had done well as a gubernatorial candidate and felt “he had sufficient stature to make the grade. And Dan was very restive.” Maier, in retrospect, could never understand why Sanderson entered the race. Some people used these races at this time as trial runs for the future; some were just trying to help the Party. “Carl Thompson was a real hero. He never figured he could win, but he damn near gave his life trying.”
Tape/Side   66/2
Time   55:50
DOES NOT RECALL 1951 SELECTION OF GLADYS HOAN AS NATIONAL COMMITTEEWOMAN
Scope and Content Note: Opposition was mainly Hannah Biemiller. “I don't think necessarily Hannah would have been that popular either in the Party.... She could be harsh. Gladys was very personable.” Dan Hoan was more involved in the Party than Andy Biemiller, who was rather aloft from the Party.
Tape/Side   66/2
Time   57:10
END OF TAPE 66, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   67/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   67/1
Time   00:30
DAN HOAN'S SHIFT OF HIS POLITICAL BASE TO NORTHWESTERN WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: “Dan was striking in all different directions in those days, to try to get back in. He must have missed it horribly. And he was a young man yet.” Bright. “The great articulator of the Socialist movement. He was not the great organizer of the Socialist movement.” The Socialist organization in Milwaukee was rusty by 1940. Maier “inherited the remnants of the Socialist leadership in 1948 . Zeidler had a few of them, but I got the stalwarts,” the former members of the Socialist Party executive committee.
Tape/Side   67/1
Time   03:45
LABOR'S ROLE IN MILWAUKEE AND WISCONSIN POLITICS
Scope and Content Note: In 1948 the Machinists endorsed Maier second, behind Frank Zeidler, for mayor. He was pro-labor because of his experiences in the Depression and the fact that his grandfather had a railroad pension to see them through that period. Labor was very important politically in Milwaukee in the 1930s and 1940s, but began to decline in importance in the 1950s. In the 1950s the younger people in the shops forgot “what the hell labor really stood for outside of wages and hours and working conditions.” CIO became “a shadow of the old AFL.” “The bosses' propaganda has again taken -hold.” News media people are the bosses' “agents.” “The man who rose out of the DOC as the rising star of organized labor and the farmers, in my humble opinion, is Gaylord Nelson.” Labor was certainly supportive of what was happening in the DOC and was supportive with its money, but only a few individuals were really active in the party. The Autoworkers, the Steelworkers, the Machinists, and the Teamsters were the most politically active, though the latter sometimes were active with Republicans. In Wisconsin the Teamsters are still more progressive than their national leadership. “Ideologically, I thought the CIO was right on the mark.” Personally, George Haberman was probably to the right of his membership, but publicly he was always in step with what the rank and file really wanted.
Tape/Side   67/1
Time   11:25
DEMOCRATS IN THE LEGISLATURE IN THE 1950s
Scope and Content Note: The Democrats in the legislature “religiously worked on the party platform in those days, and religiously enrolled the party platform in the bills.” Fought for those bills also, even though they knew they would not pass. Passed quite a bit of the program when Nelson became governor. Much of the program was for efficiency in government, resulting in the Department of Administration. Also instituted the party platform's call for higher salaries for university faculty.
Tape/Side   67/1
Time   15:05
CREATION OF THE UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MILWAUKEE
Scope and Content Note: Maier held the balance of power “on the integration of higher education, which Kohler wanted. And so, because I had that balance of power, I was able to parley the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee into existence.” University of Wisconsin-Madison fought to prevent this. Maier felt it was very important to get the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee because it had been a hardship for him to attend college in Madison. Unbeknownst to him at the time, he was invited to a meeting as a freshman at the University Extension in Milwaukee to help agitate for a merger of the extension and the teachers college into UW-Milwaukee.
Tape/Side   67/1
Time   16:50
THE REAPPORTIONMENT ISSUE, 1951-1953
Scope and Content Note: “I was the leader for population reapportionment in Wisconsin.” Raised 14,000 dollars to fight for reapportionment. Anecdote about Frank Zeidler charging Maier for long distance phone calls he made on behalf of reapportionment, “a city issue.” Republican Voluntary Committee, meanwhile, was spending 96,000 dollars to fight reapportionment. Democrats won a reapportionment referendum; then the Republicans won a referendum in a light spring election which would permit geography as a factor in apportioning the state senate. The Republicans proceeded to reapportion on that basis and one seat was lost--Maier's. “They said it was the computer that spit me out.” He regained the seat when the state supreme court ruled that this reapportionment was illegal. Anecdote about Zeidler getting cold feet about attending a meeting Maier arranged at the site of the first state capitol in Belmont. Meeting was very successful. Zeidler was well-meaning, but of no help in the reapportionment fight. He put out press releases, but provided no money and no organization. His press releases were simply received as those from “the Socialist mayor of Milwaukee.”
Tape/Side   67/1
Time   21:10
MAIER'S RELATIONSHIP WITH FRANK ZEIDLER
Scope and Content Note: “I stood up for Zeidler in the senate, by the way. I was very loyal to him.” After the “clay boat incident” in regard to the Kohler strike , the legislature was challenging Zeidler's harbor authority. Maier threatened to filibuster. The rest of the Milwaukee delegation was “really shafting him.” “I think that after I became mayor, he just resented the fact that I had a different outlook and a different modus operandi, that was proven to have some success.”
Tape/Side   67/1
Time   22:15
CATLIN BILL
Scope and Content Note: Maier led the longest filibuster in the history of the state in opposition to passage of this bill, which curtailed labor's political contributions. A state senate filibuster differed from the U.S. senate in that one could not read from a printed document without permission and also had to stick to the subject. Maier filibustered for twenty-four hours.
Tape/Side   67/1
Time   23:10
MAIER HELPED WRITE GOVERNOR NELSON'S “SEND THE LEGISLATURE HOME” SPEECH
Scope and Content Note: The Republican senate was blocking all of Nelson's legislation and nothing was getting done. So Maier advised Nelson to send the legislature home. Maier and Ed Bayley wrote the speech. Bayley told Maier on the way into the senate for the speech not to let Nelson change his mind. “Gaylord said the more he read that speech the angrier he got.”
Tape/Side   67/1
Time   24:45
DEATH RESOLUTION FOR SENATOR JOE McCARTHY
Scope and Content Note: As a majority leader, the Republicans showed Maier an innocuous resolution and then substituted a resolution that praised McCarthy's fight against communism. Maier objected on the floor, but “Gaylord ran.” Nelson left the floor of the senate. Maier and two Polish senators voted against the resolution. He thought, with his Catholic district, that he would be criticized, but a Catholic priest commended him for his vote. “Gaylord was very sorry that he didn't stay on that vote day.”
Tape/Side   67/1
Time   27:00
GAYLORD NELSON
Scope and Content Note: “A tremendously popular man, tremendously likeable and tremendously talented. I still think, if he'd had the fire in his belly, he could have been president of the United States.” “A remarkably good issue touch. He also had an understanding of how the political system works.” Did not really fault Nelson for avoiding the McCarthy resolution since it was not a vote of any real consequence and since Nelson liked to preserve a working relationship with the Republicans.
Tape/Side   67/1
Time   28:10
END OF TAPE 67, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   67/2
Time   29:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   67/2
Time   29:40
MORE ON DEMOCRATIC STATE SENATORS IN THE 1950s
Scope and Content Note: Quite active. Never had a significant split in the senate. Daily caucuses. Once a senator from Superior missed a caucus and Maier had some of his constituents call him and ask where he was.
Tape/Side   67/2
Time   31:40
TODAY THERE IS LESS PARTY DISCIPLINE IN PART BECAUSE THE PLATFORMS OFTEN CONTAIN PLANKS VIEWED AS EXTREMIST BY THE PUBLIC
Scope and Content Note: Also the party has somewhat abandoned its basic economic issues. “Now I think the legislature themselves have been more concerned with the basic issues and less with those fringe issues and I think that there's a gulf between them wanting to really stand for the party platform and the interest in their own reelections.” Lack of fights over control of the party in recent years and “that may also signify a lack of real concern and real attention to what a party basically should be standing for; and that is it ought to be a program vehicle.” Still more concern about patronage than program. Legislators are not program oriented enough either. Too often legislators engage in personal attacks just to capture the attention of the press.
Tape/Side   67/2
Time   36:20
STRUGGLES FOR CONTROL OF THE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: During the transition period, 1947-1955, “I think there was simply people were trying to get into position. This was sort of a horse race as to who was really going to emerge. And of course there is some muscling in that kind of a race. So I think it led to more personality conflicts” but “never, in my opinion, was there any kind of a deep-sixing of the issues.” United in opposition to McCarthy and united in the basic platform of the party. “It wasn't a question of how you were going to run the party. It was who was going to run the party.... That's where the power fights came from.”
Tape/Side   67/2
Time   39:25
MAIER DID NOT TAKE AN ACTIVE ROLE IN THE DEMOCRATIC SENATORIAL PRIMARY IN 1952
Scope and Content Note: Was very involved in the Adlai Stevenson campaign and the reapportionment fight, the referendum for which was on the November ballot. “Between Henry Reuss and Tom Fairchild I didn't feel we could lose.”
Tape/Side   67/2
Time   40:40
MAIER SUPPORTED JIM DOYLE IN THE 1954 GUBERNATORIAL PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Was not very active, but felt Doyle had made contributions to the party which should have earned him the nomination. Proxmire was not sufficiently party-oriented. Used to be a bigger supporter of Proxmire. Differences with Jim Doyle were mainly style and personality.
Tape/Side   67/2
Time   43:00
MAIER'S RACE FOR THE U.S. SENATE IN 1956
Scope and Content Note: No one especially wanted to make that race. “My real ambition was someday to be the mayor of the city of Milwaukee. And I thought I'd make that run as a trial. I never expected to win. But I made some personal political gains in the race. Madison opposed me with Elliot Walstead, and Elliot didn't fair very well in that primary.” That was Maier's first statewide race and he did better than Proxmire.[1] “But I really never had an orientation to be a statewide figure.”
Tape/Side   67/2
Time   44:05
MAIER'S DIFFERENCES WITH THE MADISON RING
Scope and Content Note: Madison people ran Walstead against him in the 1956 primary. Maier “was responsible for Philleo Nash's defeat of Horace Wilkie. And of all the people to defeat, he was the last one I wish I had defeated because I liked him so very much. But... I felt it was time for us to be in the sun somewhere. So I managed Philleo's campaign pretty largely.” An effort to make Milwaukee's presence in the party more visible. “To show that we were here too.” “I had been the hammer out of Milwaukee. I was the one person who would challenge them.” “They took the view that it had to be one of their own. There's always been this feeling--now it's more statewide than it used to be--that there's an arrogation of power in Dane County.” When Nash lost the party chairmanship to Pat Lucey, Maier was not involved in the campaign.
Tape/Side   67/2
Time   47:40
MAIER DID NOT CONSIDER RUNNING FOR THE SENATE IN 1957
Scope and Content Note: Had health problems at the time. Did not have the stamina or the money to make the race.
Tape/Side   67/2
Time   48:05
THE BREAKTHROUGH IN 1958
Scope and Content Note: Many variables. One was the “Republicans were misfiring.” Vernon Thomson was a “perfect foil” for Gaylord Nelson. Also, Nelson had a very broad base of support within the Democratic Party. The Capital Times had a great deal of influence, well beyond its circulation and it was a great supporter of Nelson. Nelson also had many personal liaisons with labor and farm leaders. “And he was likeable, very likable.” The timing was right: a very strong Democratic candidate running at a time when the Republicans had made a lot of mistakes.
Tape/Side   67/2
Time   52:35
1960 MAYORAL CAMPAIGN
Scope and Content Note: There were no major issues that separated Maier and Henry Reuss. “It was relatively a gentlemen's campaign. Jack Kohl, who is scarcely a friend of mine, said that it was one of the most brilliant campaigns in history. And I think that that is possibly true. It wasn't highly funded, but it was well-executed in the field and the television debates helped me greatly.” Maier went to sixty-five factory gates in the dead of winter. “I walked every main street in Milwaukee.” Did not spend any time going to small meetings and did not make the rounds of the party meetings. Concentrated heavily on a platform: “The Seven Steps to Progress,” seven program papers. Reuss also had “the sleeping bag thing” and also was not provided much debate experience in Congress.
Tape/Side   67/2
Time   55:45
MAIER'S POLITICAL AMBITIONS
Scope and Content Note: “I'm essentially an urban man.” Wanted to be mayor. The Farmers Union twice asked him to run for governor because as state senator he voted one hundred percent right on its roll call “'and you understand the problems of poverty and that's the most important consideration.'” “I never wanted to live in an executive mansion, and I wanted to live in Milwaukee. I passed up some Washington opportunities too. I never wanted to live in Washington. And, by and large, we've had an effect. We've had our influences. And we're not done yet.”
Tape/Side   67/2
Time   57:20
END OF TAPE 67, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   68/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   68/1
Time   00:30
MAIER AND MILWAUKEE'S RELATIONSHIP WITH THE STATE GOVERNMENT
Scope and Content Note: Got along fine with Gaylord Nelson as governor. Only difference with governor Lucey was over the machine and equipment tax exemption. Did have differences with governor Warren Knowles “because Warren didn't know that I knew that he was criticizing me for the handling of the riots.” John Reynolds “was not at all an urban governor,” but Maier had no big issues with him. Milwaukee legislators were very friendly with Maier until “the present crowd got elected.” According to state senator Mordecai Lee, John Norquist and other Milwaukee legislators “make hay” in Madison with upstate Democrats by attacking Maier. “'That means they can keep their chairmanships.'” That was never a problem until the Democrats got a majority in the state senate. “By the way, there's been some easing of that since that statewide survey of the Journal's in which I had a job rating neck and neck with Bill Proxmire, 82-84 percent.” “They always thought I was the mutton-head around the state because of a few goddamn legislators that are demi-gods out of Milwaukee.” Mayors throughout the country traditionally fight governors because the latter have “the resources and mayors don't have them.”
Tape/Side   68/1
Time   04:40
MILWAUKEE LEGISLATORS ON MILWAUKEE ISSUES
Scope and Content Note: Some were bad on the prison issue whether to locate a state prison in Milwaukee, but the state senators were pretty good on that issue. Not too bad on shared taxes. Abominable on the sewerage issue. “Seems to me that there's some drifting towards business that oughn't to be there. You're never going to satisfy business.”
Tape/Side   68/1
Time   05:45
MAIER ON BIG BUSINESS
Scope and Content Note: “They just happen to get surveyed more than any other class.” When business got “too big for its britches and produced 1932,” the electorate “knocked them off.” When labor started to get too big, the electorate gave it the Taft-Hartley Act. Now business is getting too big again, and “if we can ever get by the national media and the networks, ...we'll get back to the people.” This follows John C. Calhoun's doctrine of the concurrent majority.
Tape/Side   68/1
Time   07:40
MAIER'S MASTERS DEGREE, 1964
Scope and Content Note: Wrote his thesis on the office of mayor. Used it as an opportunity to think through his theories of leadership. Published by Random House. It “was no great strain.”
Tape/Side   68/1
Time   09:35
MAIER'S FREELANCE WRITING
Scope and Content Note: Started writing in order to teach himself to write better. Started this as a state senator and the masters thesis was just another part of it. Politicians need to take courses in statistics, algebra, and trigonometry, and learn the discipline of writing.
Tape/Side   68/1
Time   11:15
THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF WISCONSIN DOES NOT HAVE A SUFFICIENT URBAN POLICY
Scope and Content Note: Particularly true of Tony Earl. Maier had high hopes that Earl would be a great governor. Earl promised Maier he would not destroy the “growth formulas and this is his mission now.” Milwaukee is “overloaded” with services to poverty and the underprivileged and Earl wants to add a prison to it. The leaders of the party have never even asked for an urban policy. Earl's tax policy is too far to the right for Maier. “The idea of a special program to give tax breaks to the rich. Jesus Christ! At the expense of the cities.”
Tape/Side   68/1
Time   17:35
OUTSTATE VIEW OF MILWAUKEE
Scope and Content Note: Confusion over the fact that the suburbs are not part of the city. “Some people think that we have the wealth along with the poverty.” Madison press corps is unfriendly to Milwaukee.
Tape/Side   68/1
Time   21:10
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/69-71
Subseries: David Rabinovitz, 1985 May 10
Note: Access online.
Tape/Side   69/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   69/1
Time   00:30
BIOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Orthodox Jew. Debating team in high school. Very poor during the Depression, but family did not accept welfare. Jewish community in Sheboygan “helped each other.” Went to Marquette University because it was in the largest city in Wisconsin and he would have a better chance of getting work while in school. Did all kinds of jobs while at Marquette. Made the traveling debating team at Marquette. Also was in the glee club, which served as the church choir, singing Catholic hymns in Latin. After two years at Marquette, he transferred to the University of Wisconsin in Madison because he did not like Marquette's law school; felt the professors, most of whom were lawyers, were not scholarly enough. At the UW, also had many jobs, made the debating team and glee club, and became active in the Hillel Foundation.
Tape/Side   69/1
Time   04:10
BECAME CHAIRMAN OF THE FARMER-LABOR-PROGRESSIVE FEDERATION (FLPF)
Scope and Content Note: “The leftist group of the Progressives.”
Tape/Side   69/1
Time   04:35
MORE BIOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Law degree in 1930, after only five years of higher education. Also audited many courses at the University of Wisconsin. Short about one semester of getting a B.A. in speech.
Tape/Side   69/1
Time   05:40
HOW RABINOVITZ BECAME A LABOR LAWYER--GARTON TOY COMPANY STRIKE
Scope and Content Note: When he returned to Sheboygan, after getting his law degree, there was a strike at the Garton Toy Company. Maud McCreery, “suffragist,” hired him to get the strikers out of jail. “I wasn't too active in labor at all, but I felt very sorry for them.” About 25 or 30 were arrested for unlawful picketing. A jury trial found them not guilty. “And I got started in the labor movement.” This was about 1932-33. “And then the Kohler strike came along in'34.”
Tape/Side   69/1
Time   07:15
THE FIRST KOHLER STRIKE, 1934
Scope and Content Note: He was supposedly on a retainer with the union, but actually did not get paid. He was living at home at the time, but was asked to leave home when the Kohler Company refused to buy any more scrap iron from his father. “Our family broke up on account of that.... My clients left me.” His office was the strike headquarters. Signed a personal note to pay the telephone bills which were running about 100-150 dollars a month. Went with attorney Joe Padway to see AFL President William Green in Washington. Green gave him a check for 1000 dollars.
Tape/Side   69/1
Time   09:05
ANECDOTE ABOUT HOW A STRIKE SETTLEMENT FELL THROUGH BECAUSE OF JOE PADWAY
Scope and Content Note: Hearing was held before the National Labor Relations Board. Rabinovitz and Lucius Chase, Kohler's attorney, had a settlement worked out; but Padway liked to talk and at the hearing he “antagonized old man Kohler so much--he called him 'a plumber with a strong back and a weak mind'” that Kohler instructed Chase to cut off negotiations with Rabinovitz.
Tape/Side   69/1
Time   10:30
RABINOVITZ GAVE TO THE STRIKERS THE THOUSAND DOLLARS HE HAD RECEIVED FROM GREEN
Scope and Content Note: There were no strike benefits, just donations of food. “I endorsed it over to the union, the only fee I ever got.”
Tape/Side   69/1
Time   11:20
EFFECTS OF THE KOHLER STRIKE ON RABINOVITZ'S PERSONAL LIFE
Scope and Content Note: His legal business “went way down.” Was told to resign as president of B'nai B'rith. Was asked to resign from the Elks and the Moose Lodge. Also asked to resign the office he held in his synagogue. “It was tough going, except I was single and I didn't have too much living expense.”
Tape/Side   69/1
Time   12:35
STRIKE FINALLY SETTLED AFTER ABOUT SEVEN YEARS
Scope and Content Note: New officers of the State Federation of Labor made a settlement. “It was nothing. They just dropped it without the authority” of the local leadership. A mediator had been unable to get the Kohler Company to settle the strike, but he did get the company to resume scrap iron business with Rabinovitz's father. “So we made peace at home. At least I moved back into my home.”
Tape/Side   69/1
Time   14:00
MORE ON THE FARMER-LABOR-PROGRESSIVE FEDERATION
Scope and Content Note: “I became active in the Progressive Party as soon as I got out of school.” Spent his honeymoon at a FLPF convention in Oshkosh. “Sam Sigman...and a few of us felt that the Progressive Party was not liberal enough. Henry Ohl was the mainstay of that. He felt that Phil La Follette was playing both ends to the middle as far as labor was concerned.... Henry Ohl was the ... sparkplug....” FLPF gradually disintegrated to the point where the conventions were drawing very few people. People had become more conservative; the La Follettes were not supporting the FLPF; labor was losing interest. Meanwhile, Rabinovitz was county chair of the Progressive Party and served on the state central committee. FLPF could assemble fifty women at the labor hall to do mailings and telephone calls. FLPF was the “backbone” of the Progressive Party in Sheboygan. When Phil La Follette came to town, however, “he would socially go to chambers of commerce.... country clubs, disassociate himself as far as he could from the Farm Labor people.”
Tape/Side   69/1
Time   18:50
PHIL LA FOLLETTE REFUSED TO ACCEPT QUESTIONS AT THE STATE FEDERATION OF LABOR CONVENTION IN BEAVER DAM 1936
Scope and Content Note: Purposely held in Beaver Dam because it was the headquarters of the Law and Order League, an anti-labor group. “I was very close to Henry Ohl. I was like a son of his. I sat with him throughout the conventions. We ate together.” Phil La Follette addressed the convention and hurried off the stage. Henry Ohl called La Follette back to the stage, saying he had a lot of questions to ask him. La Follette said he had a previous engagement and left.
Tape/Side   69/1
Time   20:30
CONSERVATIVES REPLACED THE OLD SOCIALIST LEADERSHIP OF THE STATE FEDERATION OF LABOR
Scope and Content Note: Even Dan Hoan went into business and became quite wealthy.
Tape/Side   69/1
Time   22:10
“GERMAN RUSSIAN” PEOPLE IN SHEBOYGAN HAD A RADICAL TRADITION
Scope and Content Note: As immigrants, they had been recruited by the Kohler Company. They were the core of the 1934 strike. Had a pretty strong Communist Party in Sheboygan in the 1930s. Many of the “German Russians” worked in the Kohler foundry, sandblasting without masks. Later many got silicosis for which they received no compensation.
Tape/Side   69/1
Time   24:40
THE WISCONSIN DEMOCRATIC PARTY PRIOR TO THE DOC
Scope and Content Note: “The Democratic Party was a small organization run by Charlie Broughton of the Sheboygan Press, Bill Rubin. It was a little club of some kind. There was no philosophy behind it. There was no liberalism connected. It was a patronage organization.... Then we walked in with this DOC and we got labor interested....”
Tape/Side   69/1
Time   26:00
LA FOLLETTE'S ATTEMPT TO ORGANIZE THE NATIONAL PROGRESSIVES OF AMERICA KILLED THE PROGRESSIVE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: “Sawed off swastika.” Phil ran the meeting; no one else spoke. “This was a dictatorship. He ran it like Hitler did.” Phil was the main speaker at a Bund rally in Sheboygan. This infuriated Henry Ohl.
Tape/Side   69/1
Time   28:45
END OF TAPE 69, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   69/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   69/2
Time   00:30
MORE ON THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY PRIOR TO THE DOC
Scope and Content Note: Rabinovitz attempted to work with Broughton and the others. “It was pretty much of a closed corporation... It was a party of dishing out post office jobs.”
Tape/Side   69/2
Time   03:30
DISSOLUTION OF THE PROGRESSIVE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Labor people went to the Democratic Party. Several Progressive officeholders entered the Republican Party. Rabinovitz went to the Democrats. Worked for Dan Hoan for governor.
Tape/Side   69/2
Time   05:30
RABINOVITZ WORKED AT ORGANIZING DOC UNITS IN THE SHEBOYGAN AREA
Scope and Content Note: Most labor people were involved in this work. Old-line Democrats still controlled some patronage, however.
Tape/Side   69/2
Time   09:30
MORE ON PRE-DOC DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Leaders could not get along with each other at one point, so Broughton, Rubin, and Gerald Clifford shared the duties of chairman of the party.
Tape/Side   69/2
Time   10:30
FIRST DOC CONVENTION, 1949
Scope and Content Note: One of the issues for the platform was labor law.
Tape/Side   69/2
Time   14:10
1950 DEMOCRATIC SENATORIAL PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: “Dilweg was still the remnants of the Broughton group.”
Tape/Side   69/2
Time   15:15
WILKIE-NASH CHAIRMANSHIP ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: Rabinovitz nominated Wilkie. “I was really bawled out by labor.” Nash was a good orator. Rabinovitz's son was for Nash; son was active in the Young Democrats.
Tape/Side   69/2
Time   17:50
ANECDOTE ABOUT A DIFFICULT LEGAL CASE FOR WHICH WILKIE WROTE THE WRIT OF PROHIBITION FOR RABINOVITZ
Scope and Content Note: Wilkie told Rabinovitz he had “a perfect case.” The case involved a fight over the value of some Kohler stock in the course of a divorce settlement. Rabinovitz had to take the case to Wisconsin Supreme Court. By this time Wilkie was on the Supreme Court and he told Rabinovitz he did not have a case.
Tape/Side   69/2
Time   20:30
MORE ON THE WILKIE-NASH ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: Supported Wilkie because he liked him and he knew him better than he knew Nash.
Tape/Side   69/2
Time   21:30
MADISON-MILWAUKEE RIVALRY
Scope and Content Note: Rabinovitz did not see himself as being aligned with one group more than the other. “There was real enmity between those groups there. And the truth of the matter, there wasn't that much of a difference. It was personality clashes.” Rabinovitz hoped Horace Wilkie, who was not very aggressive, would provide peace in the party.
Tape/Side   69/2
Time   23:00
LUCEY-NASH CHAIRMANSHIP ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: Rabinovitz supported Lucey and his son, again, supported Nash. Jean Lucey “openly attacked my son. My son was fourteen, fifteen years old, young kid. And she attacked him as double-crossing her....” Rabinovitz's daughter was also for Nash.
Tape/Side   69/2
Time   24:15
MORE ON MADISON-MILWAUKEE RIVALRY
Scope and Content Note: Christ Seraphim stirred up a lot of trouble. Rabinovitz had a big bar mitzvah party for his son, attended by 400 people. Seraphim was circulating nomination papers at the party for his race against John Reynolds for Attorney General. Rabinovitz, (on the request of Nat Hefernan), asked him to stop. “I didn't take sides. If you didn't take sides, you were a traitor. You had to take sides. And I felt I didn't want to take sides.” Rabinovitz made peace speeches at the conventions.
Tape/Side   69/2
Time   27:10
1954 DEMOCRATIC GUBERNATORIAL PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Rabinovitz supported Jim Doyle over Bill Proxmire.
Tape/Side   69/2
Time   28:25
END OF TAPE 69, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   70/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   70/1
Time   00:30
POLITICALLY THE AFL AND THE CIO WERE PRETTY MUCH TOGETHER
Tape/Side   70/1
Time   01:20
RABINOVITZ SUPPORT FOR JOHN KENNEDY IN 1960
Scope and Content Note: Had worked closely with John and Bobby Kennedy for several weeks during the Kohler strike hearings. Especially close to Bobby; even spent some weekends at his home. Did not come out openly for Jack Kennedy until after he had been asked to do so by Pat Lucey. Rabinovitz the only labor person in Wisconsin who was openly supporting Kennedy. He could not draw a crowd for a Kennedy dinner. Jack Kennedy was considered anti-labor because of his support for the Landrum-Griffin Act, but Rabinovitz maintained that that law did not hurt labor. There was also an erroneous impression that the Kennedys were not helpful during the Kohler hearings. The Teamsters Union was also one of Rabinovitz's clients. Anecdote about Rabinovitz meeting with Jimmy Hoffa who speculated about the possibility of Bobby Kennedy becoming attorney general and prosecuting him. When it became known that Rabinovitz was supporting Kennedy, the Teamsters withdrew as a client of his. Rabinovitz did not mind, since the Teamsters only paid him 400 dollars a year. Ray Majareus, who was assistant to Harvey Kitzman, the UAW regional director, supported Kennedy sub rosa. Kitzman was very close to Hubert Humphrey. “It was tough going. Of course, after the primary, then there was no problems. Labor came -over to Jack Kennedy.”
Tape/Side   70/1
Time   07:20
RABINOVITZ DESCRIBES POLITICAL PICTURES ON THE WALL OF HIS OFFICE
Tape/Side   70/1
Time   08:20
RABINOVITZ GAVE SPEECHES ABOUT THE LANDRUM-GRIFFIN BILL
Scope and Content Note: Had to counter Teamster propaganda. “...the benefits of the Griffin Landrum Bill. The only people that it affected were the racketeers and the dishonest labor people. The purpose was to clean up labor. It wasn't an anti-labor bill.” Rabinovitz had worked with the Kennedys in drafting the bill. The UAW set up a series of debates between Rabinovitz and Orville Freeman. Freeman knew agriculture, but he did not know labor law. At a packed meeting in Janesville, “I just made a fool out of Orville Freeman because I proved that Humphrey was for it the Landrum-Griffin Act too.” Freeman refused to debate the issue after that meeting. The union people at the Parker Pen Company in Janesville supported Kennedy and were very pleased with Rabinovitz's debate “because they were outcasts” because of their support for Kennedy.
Tape/Side   70/1
Time   13:00
RABINOVITZ MADE MANY SPEECHES FOR KENNEDY DURING THE CAMPAIGN
Tape/Side   70/1
Time   13:50
DEBATE WITH GEORGE HABERMAN ON THE LANDRUM-GRIFFIN ACT AT A BUILDING TRADES MEETING
Scope and Content Note: Haberman challenged him to the debate. “I met him in the barroom. He was half drunk already.... He didn't know what the hell the Griffin-Landrum bill was all about.... He made a fool of himself. He made a speech for Humphrey and I spoke for Kennedy. And he made an ass of himself. It got to the point where when he got up to talk, half the delegates... walked out on him.”
Tape/Side   70/1
Time   15:00
WALTER REUTHER WAS TOO CLOSE TO HUMPHREY TO RECOGNIZE KENNEDY'S HELP IN THE KOHLER HEARINGS
Scope and Content Note: “Bobby treated him a little rough at the hearing. Bobby had to do something. He just couldn't be one-sided completely. And he treated Harvey Kitzman pretty rough.” Kitzman wanted to make a speech at the hearings, which were televised in Milwaukee. Bobby did not want to allow it, but Rabinovitz convinced him to allow a twenty minute speech. When Kitzman had gone on for a half hour, Bobby got angry.
Tape/Side   70/1
Time   17:50
ANECDOTE ABOUT RABINOVITZ STATEMENT IN A SPEECH THAT HUMPHREY HAD “SOLD OUT” LABOR BY SWITCHING FROM THE SENATE LABOR COMMITTEE TO THE SENATE AGRICULTURE COMMITTEE
Scope and Content Note: Rabinovitz was campaigning with Jack Kennedy who told him that the press was asking if he agreed with the statement. “'And I Kennedy said I don't.' What else could he say? But then in the next breath, he says, 'Keep up the good work. Don't stop it, Dave, you're getting results.'” Then Rabinovitz ran into Humphrey at a party Eppie Lederer Ann Landers threw for him. Humphrey was very hurt and Rabinovitz had to convince him that it was politics, not personal. Humphrey did later try to help confirm Rabinovitz's judgeship appointment, more so than even Proxmire.
Tape/Side   70/1
Time   20:30
RABINOVITZ'S JUDGESHIP APPOINTMENT
Scope and Content Note: Sixty FBI people investigated him, “Bobby told me. On account of the Kohler strike, the boycott....” There was a lot of pressure on the Kennedys not to appoint Rabinovitz. Anecdote about Gaylord Nelson pounding Bobby Kennedy's table in favor of Jim Doyle. Kennedy said, “'No goddamn senator comes in my office and pounds my table.'”
Tape/Side   70/1
Time   21:55
RABINOVITZ WAS MENTIONED AT THE LAST PRESS CONFERENCE JOHN KENNEDY HELD
Scope and Content Note: Rabinovitz's son taped the press conference. Kennedy compared Rabinovitz to Louis Brandeis.
Tape/Side   70/1
Time   23:20
“KOHLER AND THE JEWISHNESS” WERE THE MAIN OBSTACLES IN GETTING RABINOVITZ CONFIRMED AS FEDERAL JUDGE
Scope and Content Note: During his interim appointment, Rabinovitz cleaned up the backlog of the court. State Bar Association poll against Rabinovitz.
Tape/Side   70/1
Time   26:15
ANECDOTE ABOUT HOW THE LAWYERS IN SUPERIOR VOTED AGAINST RABINOVITZ IN THE STATE BAR ASSOCIATION POLL EVEN THOUGH THEY DID NOT EVEN KNOW HIM
Tape/Side   70/1
Time   28:40
END OF TAPE 70, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   70/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   70/2
Time   00:30
BARNABAS SEARS, WHO HAD ORIGINALLY INVESTIGATED RABINOVITZ AND RECOMMENDED A THUMBS DOWN VOTE BY THE BAR ASSOCIATION, LATER ASKED THAT THE DECISION BE REVERSED
Scope and Content Note: This was the first time the Bar Association ever took a vote on whether it approved of a judicial appointee or not.
Tape/Side   70/2
Time   02:35
A GROUP OF LAWYERS FORMED A COMMITTEE TO ASSIST RABINOVITZ'S APPOINTMENT
Scope and Content Note: Madison lawyers to this day call Rabinovitz 'judge.' They raised 10,000 dollars to send former Wisconsin Republican Party chair Claude Jasper to Washington to lobby Everett Dirksen and others on Rabinovitz's behalf. Wound up with more support from Republican lawyers than Democratic lawyers, since the latter tended to support Jim Doyle for the judgeship.
Tape/Side   70/2
Time   04:10
RABINOVITZ EARNED THE RESPECT OF MANY LAWYERS DURING HIS INTERIM APPOINTMENT BECAUSE HE WORKED SO HARD
Scope and Content Note: Kept court in session during the summer months, contrary to tradition. Held court on Saturdays and holidays. Cleaned up about 150 of the backlog of 170 cases while he was interim judge. Twenty-seven of his cases were printed. Seven or eight were appealed to the circuit court of appeals and all were affirmed.
Tape/Side   70/2
Time   05:15
THE ISSUE ABOUT RABINOVITZ'S RESIDENCY WAS BOGUS
Scope and Content Note: There were New York judges who lived in New England. All one had to do was establish residency in the judicial district when taking office as judge there. Rabinovitz moved to the Park Hotel in Madison while trying to sell his big house on Lake Michigan. Finally sold it at about one-fifth its value. Examples of other judges who lived outside the districts they were appointed to.
Tape/Side   70/2
Time   07:45
HAD NO CHANCE TO BE APPOINTED TO THE WESTERN DISTRICT JUDGESHIP WHEN IT BECAME VACANT
Tape/Side   70/2
Time   08:45
COULD HAVE BEEN CONFIRMED BY A VOICE VOTE, BUT SAM ERWIN AND JAMES EASTLAND PREVENTED IT
Scope and Content Note: They were holding Rabinovitz hostage for an appointment of a southern racist to a court in Mississippi.
Tape/Side   70/2
Time   10:35
ANECDOTE ABOUT GAYLORD NELSON TRYING TO STOP RABINOVITZ'S INTERIM APPOINTMENT, WHICH NELSON DENIES
Tape/Side   70/2
Time   12:40
PROXMIRE, WHO FAVORED RABINOVITZ'S APPOINTMENT, HAD LITTLE INFLUENCE
Tape/Side   70/2
Time   13:00
AFTER THE APPOINTMENT WAS NOT CONFIRMED, RABINOVITZ WANTED TO STAY IN MADISON
Scope and Content Note: Liked Madison and had, of course, lost all his clients in Sheboygan. Wanted to be referee in bankruptcy, but Doyle would not appoint him. Doyle claimed that Nelson was pushing him for the judgeship more than he was pushing Nelson for the appointment.
Tape/Side   70/2
Time   14:20
OTHER DIFFICULTIES WITH THE JUDICIAL APPOINTMENT
Scope and Content Note: A lawyer in Michigan, who served time for picket line activities, was up at the same time. Reuther and George Meany did not help the cause. Thousands of telegrams on Rabinovitz's behalf were never shown to the senate committee which was considering his appointment.
Tape/Side   70/2
Time   16:00
FUNDRAISING DINNERS FOR THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: Rabinovitz organized dinners and could always count on raising 50,000 dollars from wealthy Jews. Their motive was “because they wanted to help me to be judge.” The first dinner while Nelson was governor was held in Milwaukee and Christ Seraphim had done nothing to organize the dinner only two weeks before it was scheduled to be held. Rabinovitz wound up doing all the work.
Tape/Side   70/2
Time   19:50
CHRIST SERAPHIM
Scope and Content Note: “There's no question about his inabilities. The man is an ignoramus. Besides his other conduct, he's incapable.” Got fifteen percent of fundraising dinners by serving as chairman, even though he did no work for the dinners. Nelson appointed him municipal judge. “He had a desk. He had nothing on the desk. Not a statutue book even. He never practiced law. He never knew law.”
Tape/Side   70/2
Time   21:25
1962 JEFFERSON-JACKSON DAY DINNER
Scope and Content Note: Lucey's claim that Milwaukee people and labor opposed the dinner is not true. Rabinovitz spent two months working on this dinner. The unions came through.
Tape/Side   70/2
Time   24:40
PROXMIRE FUNDRAISING DINNER
Scope and Content Note: His usual source of wealthy Jewish contributors would not contribute unless Proxmire worked harder on Rabinovitz's judgeship appointment.
Tape/Side   70/2
Time   27:40
LYNDON JOHNSON FUNDRAISER
Tape/Side   70/2
Time   28:45
END OF TAPE 70, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   71/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   71/1
Time   00:30
RABINOVITZ'S ELECTION AS NATIONAL COMMITTEEMAN, 1960
Scope and Content Note: The Kennedys wanted him. Put on a big affair at the Schroeder Hotel in Milwaukee. National Committee chair Paul Butler made a speech very critical of the incumbent committeeman, Herman Jessen. Rabinovitz had campaigned statewide for the position. Had previously lost to Jessen, but beat him two to one the second time. Rabinovitz worked hard once elected. “I made something out of it. I traveled to Washington a lot. I really set up some lines of communication...”
Tape/Side   71/1
Time   02:30
DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF WISCONSIN TODAY “ISN'T THAT MUCH OF AN ORGANIZATION ANY MORE”
Scope and Content Note: He has not been to a convention since he was judge, but understands the conventions are smaller.
Tape/Side   71/1
Time   03:00
RABINOVITZ IS CURRENTLY “INCLINED TO QUIT THE PARTY”
Scope and Content Note: Ted Kennedy is leaning toward the center of the political spectrum. “I think they're getting too conservative.... Tip O'Neill is doing nothing. He's not leading. There are no leaders in Washington. Who's leading the party? Nobody. They're all following Reagan. He's got them by the nose.”
Tape/Side   71/1
Time   04:05
MORE ON FUNDRAISING DINNERS
Tape/Side   71/1
Time   05:00
MORE ON THE CURRENT STATUS OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: Matt Flynn, candidate for U.S. senator, is “no flaming liberal.” “There isn't that spirit anymore.” Occasionally goes to party meetings in Sheboygan. Sees no activity by labor in the party in Sheboygan. No leadership. People are more conservative.
Tape/Side   71/1
Time   06:45
STATUS OF LABOR TODAY
Scope and Content Note: “A union to them is something that they can ... get a little increase in pay, an extra holiday. There is no feeling of spirit.” Except for contract time, very low attendence at meetings.
Tape/Side   71/1
Time   08:40
DISAPPOINTED IN THE WAY THE PARTY TURNED OUT IN WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: “No spirit of liberalism. No spirit of labor; they're not leaning towards labor.” Lack of organization. Business people rather than labor people are local party leaders.
Tape/Side   71/1
Time   10:30
ASSESSMENT OF WISCONSIN DEMOCRATS IN OFFICE
Scope and Content Note: They were liberal. Tony Earl may be more liberal than predecessor Democratic governors.
Tape/Side   71/1
Time   11:20
MORE ON DECLINE OF PARTY SPIRIT
Scope and Content Note: “Years ago when we wanted twenty-five, thirty women volunteers, there'd be no problem.”
Tape/Side   71/1
Time   12:05
IRRATIONALITY OF CURRENT DEMOCRATIC CONSERVATISM
Tape/Side   71/1
Time   14:10
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/72-73
Subseries: Milton and Gloria Schneider, 1986 September 9
Note
  • Access online.
  • Gloria is interviewed from Tape 72, Side 2, 13:10, until Tape 73, Side 1, 02:25; the rest of the interview is with Milton.
Tape/Side   72/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   72/1
Time   00:25
CONTINUATION OF DISCUSSION, BEGUN PRIOR TO TAPING, DEALING WITH WISCONSIN RAPIDS CITIZEN OPPOSITION TO SENATOR JOSEPH McCARTHY
Tape/Side   72/1
Time   01:25
BIOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Parents immigrants. He was born in 1910 in Milwaukee. Educated at Bay View High School. Post high school education at Milwaukee Extension, Marquette University, and Milwaukee Labor College. Failure to get a college degree prevented his becoming an officer during World War II at first. Father was a cobbler. Parents were not members of a political party, but usually voted for Democrats.
Tape/Side   72/1
Time   04:30
FOUNDING OF THE DOC
Scope and Content Note: Anecdote about telling Gaylord Nelson at the founding convention that he had a good future in politics: “Get rid of that bow tie and put on a regular tie....That's all that's needed.”
Tape/Side   72/1
Time   05:20
APPOINTMENT TO THE UNIVERSITY BOARD OF VISITORS BY GOVERNOR NELSON
Scope and Content Note: “He says, 'Well, you're the second meanest man I know of.'” Later became chairman of the Board of Visitors. Recommended building a new law school as a top priority, which was done. Recommended expansion of the Extension system. Battle between Marshfield and Wisconsin Rapids for the new Extension campus. Marshfield won and later offered classes in Wisconsin Rapids at the high school. Board of Visitors also did a major survey of all the colleges on all the campuses, regarding research assistants and teaching assistants. Also did a survey of all the state's high schools and found that most students went to colleges within ten miles of their homes. Served on the Board of Visitors for twelve years.
Tape/Side   72/1
Time   17:00
NASH-WILKIE CONTEST FOR CHAIRMANSHIP OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF WISCONSIN, 1955
Scope and Content Note: Schneider supported Wilkie because he “had done all of the preliminary work leading to that position and he was entitled to it. Philleo had just returned from Washington; and just to jump in as Chairman, I thought that was unfair. It was not a personal matter.”
Tape/Side   72/1
Time   19:30
STATE PARTY CONVENTION HELD IN WISCONSIN RAPIDS IN 1953
Scope and Content Note: Only time it was held in such a small town. Very successful convention.
Tape/Side   72/1
Time   20:25
CHAIRMANSHIP OF WISCONSIN PROXMIRE FOR GOVERNOR CLUBS, 1956
Scope and Content Note: A fundraising effort. The local chair of the party was a Nash supporter and would not let Schneider speak for Proxmire at a dinner.
Tape/Side   72/1
Time   22:40
PROXMIRE DENUNCIATION OF ATTORNEY GENERAL CANDIDATE ROBERT LA FOLLETTE SUCHER
Scope and Content Note: As Chairman of the Wisconsin Proxmire for Governor Clubs, Schneider sent out a letter supporting Proxmire's position. This was contrary to the position of the state party.
Tape/Side   72/1
Time   24:45
NASH'S DEMAND THAT BETTY GRAICHEN RESIGN FROM THE ADMINISTRATIVE COMMITTEE
Tape/Side   72/1
Time   26:15
BIOGRAPHY AFTER WORLD WAR II
Scope and Content Note: Went to work for the Veterans Administration in the area of vocational rehabilitation. Had been involved in counselling while in the Army.
Tape/Side   72/1
Time   29:35
END OF TAPE 72, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   72/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   72/2
Time   00:25
BIOGRAPHY AFTER WORLD WAR II (CONTINUED)
Scope and Content Note: Got the telephone company in Milwaukee to set up 500 training jobs for veterans. In 1947 his father-in-law convinced him to join his business in Wisconsin Rapids. The business was a scrap yard, but Schneider turned it into a plumbing, heating, and electrical supply business.
Tape/Side   72/2
Time   02:55
DOES NOT RECALL HOW HE FIRST GOT INVOLVED WITH THE DOC
Tape/Side   72/2
Time   04:25
MEETING AT ARPIN, WISCONSIN, ATTENDED BY SECRETARY OF AGRICULTURE CHARLES BRANNAN IN THE EARLY 1950s
Scope and Content Note: Three hundred people attended the meeting.
Tape/Side   72/2
Time   05:20
DAVID OBEY AND HIS “BETTER WAY COMMITTEE”
Tape/Side   72/2
Time   06:50
ALWAYS INTERESTED IN POLITICS AND ALWAYS A DEMOCRAT
Tape/Side   72/2
Time   07:55
HIS BUSINESS REQUIRED TOO MUCH OF HIS TIME TO PERMIT HIM TO RUN FOR OFFICE
Tape/Side   72/2
Time   08:15
PRIOR TO THE DOC, THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN WOOD COUNTY WAS “A LAUGH”
Scope and Content Note: Schneider ran against the statutory chair and beat him. Later that man joined the DOC.
Tape/Side   72/2
Time   10:25
EARLY LEADERS IN THE WOOD COUNTY DOC
Tape/Side   72/2
Time   13:10
WISCONSIN RAPIDS CITIZENS COMMITTEE AGAINST JOE McCARTHY (Gloria)
Scope and Content Note: The Chamber of Commerce had invited McCarthy to be its guest speaker at its annual banquet in 1952. Milton resigned from the Chamber, but Gloria wanted to do more. Contacted Jean Nash, Philleo's sister, and they decided to run an ad in the newspaper in order to give their position publicly. Then sought out other prominent citizens. Many expressed their opposition to McCarthy, but did not want to go public. Did find fifteen people who agreed to sign the ad, including the mayor, a justice of the peace, and the city health officer. Jean Nash and Gloria did most of the work. They decided to quote Margaret Chase Smith's “Declaration of Conscience” and also editorials from well-known magazines which had taken a stand against McCarthy, and to add a brief statement of their own. Arranged to have the ad published on the Monday after the Saturday McCarthy was scheduled to speak. The three-quarter page ad did appear, as planned, in the same edition that covered McCarthy's speech. Mailed copies of the ad to various people around the state, which generated interest in similar activities. Complimentary editorial in the Capital Times.
Tape/Side   72/2
Time   20:35
ANECDOTE ABOUT REFUSING TO PERMIT A CAPITAL TIMES REPORTER, WARREN SAWALL, TO PREPARE A STORY ON THE CITIZENS COMMITTEE AGAINST McCARTHY PRIOR TO THE APPEARANCE OF THE AD (Gloria)
Scope and Content Note: Many of the signers of the ad were Republicans or independents and Gloria did not want them to think they were being used by Democrats.
Tape/Side   72/2
Time   22:00
TWO SIGNERS OF THE AD BACKED OUT AT THE LAST MINUTE (Gloria)
Scope and Content Note: Nervous about possible last minute defections, Jean Nash and Gloria decided to stop answering their telephones, thereby forcing potential defectors to face them personally. “We didn't want to make it so easy that they just had to make a phone call.” No one else defected. Thirteen names appeared on the ad.
Tape/Side   72/2
Time   23:30
COMMUNITY REACTION (Gloria)
Scope and Content Note: Shortly after the appearance of the ad Gloria began to feel a certain coolness toward her by many people in the community. On the other hand, many people offered congratulations privately.
Tape/Side   72/2
Time   24:25
McCARTHY'S REACTION (Gloria)
Scope and Content Note: McCarthy reacted by attacking Jean Nash's brother, Philleo, on the floor of the Senate. Philleo rejoined that McCarthy was piqued by his sister's actions and suddenly the whole thing received national attention. Marquis Childs and other national reporters came to Wisconsin Rapids to interview Jean Nash, the Schneiders, etc.
Tape/Side   72/2
Time   26:30
ASSESSMENT OF THE WHOLE AD CAMPAIGN AND SURROUNDING EVENTS (Gloria)
Scope and Content Note: “It was an exciting, controversial, painful, exhilarating experience and one that I think I'm still very, very proud of and hope I never have occasion to undertake again.”
Tape/Side   72/2
Time   27:00
MORE ON COMMUNITY REACTION (Gloria)
Scope and Content Note: One woman, whose husband was active in the Chamber of Commerce, thought the ad would embarrass the Chamber. Some efforts at Consolidated Paper to dissuade signers, but a high official at the company put an end to it.
Tape/Side   72/2
Time   29:00
END OF TAPE 72, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   73/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   73/1
Time   00:25
SCHNEIDERS STOPPED TO SEE LEROY GORE--OF “JOE MUST GO” FAME--ON THEIR WAY BACK FROM MADISON WHERE MILT HAD HAD SURGERY (Gloria)
Scope and Content Note: “That's how nuts people in politics are.”
Tape/Side   73/1
Time   02:20
MILT NAMED “CITIZEN OF THE YEAR” IN WISCONSIN RAPIDS IN 1962 BECAUSE OF HIS EFFORTS TO BRING A UNIVERSITY CAMPUS TO THE TOWN
Tape/Side   73/1
Time   03:10
BECAME PRESIDENT OF THE ROTARY CLUB IN 1972
Scope and Content Note: Instituted a student exchange program with a town in Mexico.
Tape/Side   73/1
Time   04:20
A “POLITICAL JUNKIE” WHO WOULD DO WHATEVER THE PARTY ASKED OF HIM
Tape/Side   73/1
Time   05:05
SCHNEIDER ATTEMPTED TO AVOID A DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY RACE FOR SENATOR IN 1952
Scope and Content Note: Unable to get Henry Reuss to withdraw. Reuss claimed labor would be angry with him if he withdrew. Schneider supported Fairchild.
Tape/Side   73/1
Time   06:55
SCHNEIDER DID NOT TAKE SIDES IN THE 1950 DEMOCRATIC SENATORIAL PRIMARY
Tape/Side   73/1
Time   07:55
IN THE EARLY GOING SCHNEIDER WAS UNAWARE OF ANYONE CONTRIBUTING MORE THAN ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS TO THE DOC
Tape/Side   73/1
Time   09:05
RIVALRY BETWEEN MADISON AND MILWAUKEE
Scope and Content Note: “I...came from Milwaukee and so they didn't know where to put me. Usually I voted with the Madison people. And they were usually right.” Had to avoid making the Milwaukee people too angry, but also had to avoid letting them take over the party.
Tape/Side   73/1
Time   10:45
ROLE OF PARTY ACTIVISTS WHO LIVED OUTSIDE MADISON AND MILWAUKEE
Scope and Content Note: Generally tended to side with Madison people.
Tape/Side   73/1
Time   12:05
THERE WAS SOME PRESSURE ON SCHNEIDER TO RUN FOR CONGRESS WHEN DAVID OBEY WAS FIRST ELECTED
Tape/Side   73/1
Time   13:15
SCHNEIDER IS NO LONGER CLOSE TO PROXMIRE
Tape/Side   73/1
Time   15:15
PLEASED WITH THE PROGRESS OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY SINCE THE 1950s
Scope and Content Note: “There are no people afraid to join the party now around here.”
Tape/Side   73/1
Time   16:15
CONSERVATISM OF WISCONSIN RAPIDS PRIOR TO THE RISE OF THE DOC
Tape/Side   73/1
Time   17:20
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/74-75
Subseries: Frank Nikolay, 1986 September 9
Note: Access online.
Tape/Side   74/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   74/1
Time   00:30
BIOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Born in rural Marshfield in 1922. Lived on several farms until his father bought a combination bowling alley and speakeasy in Abbotsford in 1929. Shortly after, the business burned down on Black Friday, the day of the stock market crash. No insurance; completely wiped out. Very difficult times followed. Father got part-time jobs and mother took in laundry. Recalls having a pair of ladies' high button shoes, both for the same foot. Did get surplus commodities, which made him grateful for Franklin Roosevelt and the New Deal. Graduated from Abbotsford High School. Participated in sports and held part-time jobs. Joined the National Guard his junior year. Went to the University in Madison in 1939 and worked at a student rooming house. Called into active duty; returned to school in January 1942. Joined the Naval Air Force and completed a year and a half of pre-law studies and a summer of law school before returning to active duty.. Returned to civilian life in 1945. Completed law school in January 1948. Parents were not politically active, but were Democrats.
Tape/Side   74/1
Time   07:50
INFLUENCED POLITICALLY BY TWO HIGH SCHOOL TEACHERS
Scope and Content Note: Also influenced by his own experiences with poverty.
Tape/Side   74/1
Time   08:45
ALWAYS CONSIDERED HIMSELF A DEMOCRAT, THOUGH HE ADMIRED THE LA FOLLETTES
Tape/Side   74/1
Time   10:10
FIRST CONTACTS WITH THE DOC
Scope and Content Note: Travelled the country for several months after finishing law school. Returned to set up a legal practice in Abbotsford. Visited Bob Tehan to see if there were any other Democrats in Clark County. Tehan sent him to the editors of the Thorp Courier. They convinced him to run as an independent Democrat (since he had missed the filing date) for the office of district attorney in the fall of 1948. “I got whomped, incidently.”
Tape/Side   74/1
Time   12:45
MAKE-UP OF THE EARLY DOC IN CLARK COUNTY
Scope and Content Note: “We had a very difficult time finding the old Progressives.” Middle-of-the-road and conservative Progressives all went into the Republican Party. Two or three Polish, Catholic, Democratic townships near Thorp provided the nucleus for the Democratic Party in Clark County. A conversative wing of the Democratic Party, “as was Bob Tehan.... I'd never classified Bob Tehan as a liberal.”
Tape/Side   74/1
Time   16:00
BOB ELKINS OF THE THORP COURIER HAD “BOUNDLESS ENERGY”
Tape/Side   74/1
Time   16:50
FIRST DOC MEETING ATTENDED BY NIKOLAY
Scope and Content Note: Seventh District meeting in Eau Claire to elect a district chairman.
Tape/Side   74/1
Time   18:50
FOUNDING CONVENTION OF THE DOC IN 1949
Scope and Content Note: His first contact with people like Tom Fairchild, Jim Doyle, Gaylord Nelson, etc. Had been friends with John and Bill Duffy in law school.
Tape/Side   74/1
Time   19:40
NIKOLAY WAS NOT ACTIVE IN POLITICS AT THE UNIVERSITY
Tape/Side   74/1
Time   20:00
ISSUES OF MOST INTEREST TO CLARK COUNTY IN THE EARLY YEARS
Scope and Content Note: Parity for milk prices. Gilbert Rhode of the Farmers Union was from Clark County and had a standard speech for party activists which called for a milk price support of five dollars per hundredweight.
Tape/Side   74/1
Time   21:30
1950 DEMOCRATIC SENATORIAL PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: Nikolay supported Tom Fairchild. There was a lot of support in the Seventh District for Bill Sanderson because of his connection with Merlin Hull. Nikolay supported Fairchild because he was a lawyer and he knew his father as a good judge who had written some liberal decisions in the area of civil rights and civil liberties. “And I just felt more comfortable with the possibility of a lawyer being in the U.S. Senate than a farmer.”
Tape/Side   74/1
Time   23:35
IN 1951 NIKOLAY BECAME A LAWYER FOR THE OFFICE OF PRICE STABILIZATION IN GREEN BAY AND IN JANUARY 1952 HE BECAME AN ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY IN MADISON
Scope and Content Note: This curtailed his political activities since he was now under the Hatch Act. Became the U.S. Attorney when Fairchild resigned to run for the Senate in 1952.
Tape/Side   74/1
Time   27:15
ANECDOTE ABOUT A PARTY ORGANIZER REQUIRING HIM TO SIGN A PLEDGE CARD WHEN HE WAS IN GREEN BAY
Scope and Content Note: “I think, one percent of your annual salary at that time.” Cash contributions seemed to be the main concern of the Hatch Act rather than attending party meetings and the like.
Tape/Side   74/1
Time   29:00
END OF TAPE 74, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   74/2
Time   00:30
JACK NIKOLAY
Scope and Content Note: Was county district attorney in 1957-1958.
Tape/Side   74/2
Time   00:45
NIKOLAY TRAVELLED MUCH OF THE NORTHERN PART OF THE STATE TRYING TO ORGANIZE THE DOC DURING ITS FIRST TWO YEARS
Scope and Content Note: Largely at his own expense. Often only four or five people would show up for the meetings.
Tape/Side   74/2
Time   02:05
CONSIDERED RUNNING FOR CONGRESS WHEN MERLIN HULL DIED
Scope and Content Note: Would have had to resign his position as U.S. Attorney. Met with Lester Johnson and others. Thought he had struck a bargain that, if he did not run and Johnson went on to win, he would be Johnson's administrative assistant in Washington, D.C. He never became Johnson's administrative assistant.
Tape/Side   74/2
Time   04:15
1953 ELECTION OF LESTER JOHNSON TO CONGRESS
Scope and Content Note: Was not a landmark for the whole state. Johnson was identified with Merlin Hull's progressivism and attendance at Democratic meetings had been increasing gradually since 1948.
Tape/Side   74/2
Time   05:25
ATTORNEY GENERAL CANDIDACY IN 1954
Scope and Content Note: Relieved of his position as U.S. Attorney by the Republican administration, he returned to Abbotsford to set up a partnership with his brother and another man. Spent summer and fall campaigning for the office of Attorney General. Had no campaign fund. Felt the ticket needed someone from the northern part of the state. “I didn't need much convincing” to run. Young, single, carefree.
Tape/Side   74/2
Time   08:35
NASH-WILKIE CONTEST FOR THE PARTY CHAIRMANSHIP, 1955
Scope and Content Note: Nikolay backed Nash because he was from the northern area.
Tape/Side   74/2
Time   09:20
OUTSTATE DEMOCRATS
Scope and Content Note: Politically closer to the Milwaukee Democrats. More middle-of-the-road than the Madison Democrats.
Tape/Side   74/2
Time   11:30
ELECTED VICE-CHAIRMAN OF THE PARTY IN THE MID-1950s AND BECAME LEGISLATIVE VICE-CHAIRMAN AFTER BEING ELECTED TO THE LEGISLATURE IN 1958
Scope and Content Note: These titles were useful when speaking around the state.
Tape/Side   74/2
Time   14:20
ATTORNEY GENERAL CANDIDACY IN 1956
Scope and Content Note: Robert La Follette Sucher's name appeared on the primary ballot with “Robert La Follette” on one line and “Sucher” below that. “I didn't have a prayer when I saw those ballots.” Sucher was known to overimbibe. Proxmire's repudiation of Sucher caused considerable “resentment amongst working Democrats.” Proxmire convinced Nikolay to run as an independent, claiming it would help his campaign for governor. In return Proxmire promised he would pay Nikolay back if he was ever in a position to do so. Later on he felt Proxmire permitted a federal judgeship to slip through his fingers and Nikolay would have liked that position, which a Republican wound up with. Nikolay campaigned hard for the ticket, again largely at his own expense. Never had more than two hundred dollars contributed to his three statewide races.
Tape/Side   74/2
Time   19:35
LUCEY-NASH CONTEST FOR PARTY CHAIRMANSHIP, 1957
Scope and Content Note: Nikolay still supported Nash. Not a philosophical split; a power play by Pat Lucey.
Tape/Side   74/2
Time   21:55
NIKOLAY'S CHALLENGE TO LUCEY'S CHAIRMANSHIP, 1961
Scope and Content Note: A serious challenge, with a headquarters and everything, until Nikolay's National Guard unit was activated. Politically Lucey and Gaylord Nelson were very much alike, but personally they clashed. Lucey was angered by Nelson's power to make appointments. Nikolay felt if he were chairman he could get a legislative majority for the Democrats. Nevertheless he was a reluctant candidate since he was so busy--legal practice, National Guard, in the legislature, and on the administrative committee. Nelson made some promises and convinced Nikolay to take on the challenge; the promises were not fulfilled, on the excuse that he did not actually stand for election at the convention. Anecdote about a reporter for New Yorker magazine being told by Nikolay's general that it was his fault the unit was called up in 1961 because Lucey arranged it with President Kennedy. The reporter put this in the magazine. “But I don't think Pat had that kind of power.” Nikolay convinced he would have beaten Lucey in a close race.
Tape/Side   74/2
Time   28:25
END OF TAPE 74, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   75/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   75/1
Time   00:30
RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE PARTY AND THE LEGISLATURE
Scope and Content Note: In the 1959 legislature the majority of the Assembly Democrats were in tune with the party platform. This became less true in the 1960s, especially amongst Milwaukee Democrats on such issues as open housing, women's rights, and sexual contact between consenting adults. Began to 'rub off on other Democrats. Getting worse today.
Tape/Side   75/1
Time   03:30
NIKOLAY'S ASSEMBLY ELECTIONS
Scope and Content Note: Republican candidates always outpolled him in the primary because the Republicans were very strong in Clark County; but many would switch over to him in the general election. Only in the last eight years have the Democrats come to dominate the Clark County courthouse.
Tape/Side   75/1
Time   06:10
1963 REAPPORTIONMENT WHICH ENDED LESTER JOHNSON'S TENURE IN CONGRESS
Scope and Content Note: “We didn't have the votes” to prevent it.
Tape/Side   75/1
Time   07:30
NIKOLAY'S ELECTION AS MAJORITY LEADER
Scope and Content Note: “I think it was recognition of twenty-five years of spade work out there in the hinterlands.” Had helped line up people when the Democrats organized the Assembly and made George Molinaro speaker. “Molinaro remembered that down the road.”
Tape/Side   75/1
Time   09:20
DEFEAT IN 1966
Scope and Content Note: Spent too much time trying to help Democratic candidates elsewhere in the state. “I wasn't keeping my fences mended the way I should have.” His support for open housing hurt him. People from Milwaukee campaigned door to door against him claiming open housing would prohibit burial in Catholic cemeteries. Another key issue was his opposition to aid to parochial schools and there were many Catholic schools in his district. A whispering campaign about him being too far to the left politically.
Tape/Side   75/1
Time   12:00
SPENT THE FOLLOWING TWO YEARS CAMPAIGNING AND WAS REELECTED
Tape/Side   75/1
Time   12:15
FIRST ELECTION TO THE ASSEMBLY IN 1958
Scope and Content Note: “A combination of hard work, luck, and a weak opponent.” His opponent was the general counsel for Thorp Finance; competent, but an outspoken dry who would not campaign in taverns. Clark County tavernkeepers organized against this man.
Tape/Side   75/1
Time   13:35
LEGISLATIVE ASSISTANCE TO THE UNIVERSITY
Scope and Content Note: Early on his in legislative career, he got a reputation for being a “waterboy” for the University system and the state colleges. He felt his own success in life was attributable to the fact that he was able to attend the University “without a dime in my pocket.” Did not identify with the people in the athletic department; once told Elroy Hirsh, athletic director, to take off his Republican buttons.
Tape/Side   75/1
Time   15:15
OTHER LEGISLATIVE ACCOMPLISHMENTS
Scope and Content Note: Passage of a clean water act despite a Republican state senate. “That, I think, started the trend in Wisconsin to clean up our waters.”
Tape/Side   75/1
Time   16:00
GREATEST LEGISLATIVE DISAPPOINTMENT
Scope and Content Note: “I have seen a continual erosion of our civil liberties in the name of law enforcement.” Disappointed that he was unable to slow this trend.
Tape/Side   75/1
Time   17:05
PROUD OF HAVING BEEN PART OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT
Scope and Content Note: Worked closely with Lloyd Barbee on open housing and school desegregation.
Tape/Side   75/1
Time   17:45
CAMPAIGN FOR LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR IN 1970
Scope and Content Note: He felt ten years in the legislature was long enough for anyone. “You lose touch with your constituency; you lose touch with reality almost if you spend fulltime politicking.” Would not have run if he had known Martin Schreiber was going to run. Schreiber had told him early in the year he was going to run for attorney general. No regrets.
Tape/Side   75/1
Time   20:35
BEEN ON THE COUNTY BOARD FOR THIRTY YEARS
Tape/Side   75/1
Time   21:00
ASSESSMENT OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: Compared to the late 1940s and early 1950s the party today is more successful, better organized, and better financed, “but philosophically substantially apart from what I felt, and still feel, the Democratic Party philosophy ought to be. It's become much more conservative than it was when we started working in 1948 and '49, more business-oriented, less worker-oriented, less older people-oriented, less poor-people oriented. And that's not what I think the Democratic Party ought to stand for.” Current leaders feel getting elected is more important than being philosophically right.
Tape/Side   75/1
Time   22:30
1960 PRESIDENTIAL PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: A Hubert Humphrey supporter and a strong adversary of Pat Lucey. “I'm proud to say that, while they announced from the platform that the nomination was unanimous, the Wisconsin Humphrey delegation did not rise to its feet. It was not unanimous.”
Tape/Side   75/1
Time   24:00
ATTENDED OTHER NATIONAL CONVENTIONS
Scope and Content Note: Chairman of the McGovern delegation in 1972.
Tape/Side   75/1
Time   24:25
MORE ON THE 1960 PRESIDENTIAL PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: John Kennedy beseeched Wisconsin Humphrey delegates to switch to him. Later Bill Proxmire mentioned Nikolay for a U.S. Attorney opening, but Bobby Kennedy vetoed it because he remembered Nikolay's opposition to his brother.
Tape/Side   75/1
Time   25:40
1968 CONVENTION
Scope and Content Note: His wife and his brother were Eugene McCarthy delegates. He supported Humphrey and was not elected a delegate. He had a good friend who was in the Chicago Police Department and provided him some close up views of the riots. Police did not get out of control.
Tape/Side   75/1
Time   28:00
MORE ON THE 1960 PRESIDENTIAL PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: The wounds did not take long to heal.
Tape/Side   75/1
Time   28:45
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/76-78
Subseries: Philleo Nash, 1986 September 10
Note: Access online.
Tape/Side   76/1
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   76/1
Time   00:30
BIOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND--GENEALOGY
Scope and Content Note: Nash born in Wisconsin Rapids. Grandparents were pioneers. Maternal grandfather was an editor and an abolitionist. Paternal grandfather was an early cranberry grower and a member of the Wisconsin legislature; an associate of William Vilas and went to Washington, D.C., with him when he was named postmaster general. First president of Nekoosa Paper Company; early conservationist. A conservative Democrat.
Tape/Side   76/1
Time   03:00
BIOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND--YOUTH
Scope and Content Note: Interested in music. Spent a year at Curtis Institute in Philadelphia. Attended the University's Experimental College for two years and got fed up with unstructured education. Got interested in anthropology. Went to graduate school at the University of Chicago.
Tape/Side   76/1
Time   04:45
MORE ON PATERNAL GRANDFATHER
Scope and Content Note: Vilas and Nash's grandfather were seatmates in the legislature and were largely responsible for getting sufficient money from the legislature to improve the standing of the University.
Tape/Side   76/1
Time   07:30
PARENTS' POLITICS
Scope and Content Note: Minimal. Mother's people were non-political. Father's people became disillusioned after William Jennings Bryan was nominated for the presidency in 1896. They became Roosevelt Republicans; liberals only in their support for conservation. Father, Guy Nash, was an independent Republican, who supported Roosevelt's Progressive Party. Uncle Roy Nash was a well known forester. “...It is a fact that politically I was brought up to think that the Republicans were running a pretty nasty machine, that is the La Follette Republicans.”
Tape/Side   76/1
Time   10:05
NASH'S POLITICS IN COLLEGE WERE “INNOCENT”
Scope and Content Note: Not interested in student political organizations. Supported Herbert Hoover for president in 1928. Supported Philip La Follette in 1932.
Tape/Side   76/1
Time   12:40
NOT VERY POLITICAL THROUGHOUT THE 1930s
Scope and Content Note: Very involved in his studies at the University of Chicago. Ran into some New Deal programs while doing his doctoral research on an Indian reservation. Was not an enthusiast of either the Indian Bureau or the New Deal programs he saw. “My political attitudes, I think, were pretty much those of young anthropologists of that era, namely, 'don't trust the government.'” Did not vote until 1944, except once when his father was being recalled from the local school board.
Tape/Side   76/1
Time   16:10
FINALLY GOT POLITICAL WHEN HE WAS IN CANADA
Scope and Content Note: Canada entered World War II and imposed strict security measures. A close friend was arrested under the Defense of Canada Regulations and Nash became very involved in seeking his release. This was during the Nazi-Soviet Pact and his friend was accused of being a Communist. He was released without fanfare when Germany invaded Russia.
Tape/Side   76/1
Time   22:25
RETURNED TO WISCONSIN RAPIDS FOR A YEAR AND BEGAN TO LEARN THE CRANBERRY BUSINESS
Tape/Side   76/1
Time   22:40
WHEN THE UNITED STATES ENTERED THE WAR, NASH WENT TO WASHINGTON TO WORK FOR THE OFFICE OF WAR INFORMATION
Scope and Content Note: Was doing applied anthropology in the Office of War Information. Became aware in the course of his work of very acute racial tensions. Began to report on it, but found there was no one to talk to about it. Found a sympathetic ear in Jonathan Daniels in the White House. Mishandling of the 1943 Detroit race riot.
Tape/Side   76/1
Time   29:10
END OF TAPE 76, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   76/2
Time   00:00
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   76/2
Time   00:25
CONTINUATION OF DISCUSSION OF NASH'S WORK IN WASHINGTON DURING WORLD WAR II
Scope and Content Note: Daniels charged with keeping track of race relations in the interest of avoiding disruptions in war production. Nash was made his assistant, but also had to continue to do his work in the Office of War Information. “And I would say it was at this point that I really became political.”
Tape/Side   76/2
Time   01:10
THE POLITICIZATION OF PHILLEO NASH
Scope and Content Note: “So let's say I was radicalized by my experiences in Canada and by the Depression. And politicized by discovering the nature and source of political power in Washington in an area that I cared a great deal--namely civil rights.”
Tape/Side   76/2
Time   02:15
MORE ON NASH'S WORK ON CIVIL RIGHTS DURING THE WAR
Scope and Content Note: Daniels was a liberal Southerner and thus had middle-of-the-road views. Avoided further riots, though sometimes did call out troops or go to court. “We had the full power of the presidency, and we used it.”
Tape/Side   76/2
Time   03:50
TOOK AN ACTIVE ROLE IN THE 1944 ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: Concerned because the only previous election held during a war was in 1864 and there were riots in the streets. Roosevelt determined not to campaign in the usual sense. Part of the campaign strategy was to provide the press with “instant replies” rather than to make speeches. As soon as Republican presidential candidate Thomas Dewey made a speech, the speech was sifted for errors and a reply drafted and issued by the White House press office. Daniels was a member of the Instant Reply Committee and asked Nash to figure out a way to speed up the replies to the point where they would be ready virtually by the time Dewey had completed his major evening speech so that the reply could appear in the morning newspapers. Advance copies of Dewey's speeches were received by teletype in the afternoon and analysis of them began immediately. The reply was ready before the speech was even given; only had to listen for any changes in the actual speech. Also worked with Ted Posten, head of the Negro News Desk, to write headlines for the Negro weeklies during the campaign. “News manipulation.”
Tape/Side   76/2
Time   13:55
POLITICAL EDUCATION DURING THE TRUMAN YEARS
Scope and Content Note: Became David Niles' assistant in the White House shortly before Roosevelt's death. Niles had been in the upper eschelons of the 1924 La Follette-Wheeler campaign and was Roosevelt's “point man” on third party movements. When Niles got sick, Nash succeeded him during the last two years of the Truman administration. “...I learned something about politics there.... I learned practical politics. I learned timing. And I learned something about what power could do if you knew how to use it and if you were a lot more interested in the outcome than you were in what happened to yourself. I was always rather reckless.”
Tape/Side   76/2
Time   17:10
1948 ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: Nash's job was to try to get the black vote as close to one hundred percent for Truman as possible. “And it was pretty close. So after we picked that one up off the floor, I became a little arrogant about my knowledge of practical politics.”
Tape/Side   76/2
Time   18:05
CONTACT WITH WOOD COUNTY DURING THE TRUMAN YEARS
Scope and Content Note: His father died in 1946 and Nash thought he would have to return to Wisconsin Rapids to run the family cranberry business. Truman did not want him to leave and told him to take whatever leave was necessary, but to stay on the White House staff. Did spend several months off and on in Wisconsin Rapids and kept close contact with his sister, Jean, who ran the business on a day to day basis. On one of his visits home, Milt Schneider and Warren Sawall enlisted his support for the DOC.
Tape/Side   76/2
Time   19:40
CONDITION OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF WISCONSIN DURING THE TRUMAN YEARS
Scope and Content Note: The defeat of Bob La Follette “caused great consternation in Washington...and a good deal of contempt for the political organization in Wisconsin that would let that happen.” Proxmire came in and bumped “a perfectly good assemblyman.” In general, the party was not getting very far. Most of the new leaders of the party in Wisconsin would visit Nash in Washington, at least once, since he was their best White House contact. “I had no great reason to have a lot of respect for what the DOC was doing in Wisconsin.”
Tape/Side   76/2
Time   21:55
AFTER TRUMAN LEFT THE WHITE HOUSE, NASH REMAINED IN WASHINGTON AND SET UP AN UNSUCCESSFUL CONSULTING BUSINESS IN THE AREA OF RACE RELATIONS
Scope and Content Note: “I lacked both clients and influence.” Returned to Wisconsin in August 1954.
Tape/Side   76/2
Time   23:00
NASH'S ASSESSMENT OF THE DOC IN 1954
Scope and Content Note: He was anxious “to settle my score with Joe McCarthy.” See Milton and Gloria Schneider interview, Tape 72, Side 2, 24. The DOC had not made the necessary alliances to defeat McCarthy. Someone needed to bridge the three-way gap between Dane County, the southeastern part of the state, and the north. Needed someone to organize the party, not organize for his own candidacy.
Tape/Side   76/2
Time   24:25
INVOLVEMENT IN WOOD COUNTY DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Ran for county chairman and was elected. Organized meetings “that were of a new style.” Used the rural telephone lines and mailboxes, invited whole families, “and you use the real social centers which are the country bars.” Concentrate meetings in the winter when farmers are less busy. Refreshments and entertainment. Membership grew. Bridged the gap between labor and farmers.
Tape/Side   76/2
Time   26:20
DOC CHAIRMAN ELLIOT WALSTEAD ASKED NASH TO DO SOME FUNDRAISING FOR THE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: The party was spending three dollars to raise five dollars. Beefed up the Jefferson-Jackson Day Dinners with big name politicians from outside the state. Party was not making effective enough use of radio and television.
Tape/Side   76/2
Time   29:10
END OF TAPE 76, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   77/1
Time   00:10
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   77/1
Time   00:55
MORE ON NASH'S STATE LEVEL PARTY ACTIVITIES PRIOR TO BECOMING PARTY CHAIRMAN
Scope and Content Note: He did not initiate the Jefferson-Jackson Day Dinners, but be brought in celebrities and raised the price of tickets.
Tape/Side   77/1
Time   02:45
DECISION TO RUN FOR STATE CHAIRMANSHIP
Scope and Content Note: A delegation, including Henry Maier, came and asked him to run. Nash insisted that his support come from all parts of the state. Jerry Blaska was one of the few Dane County leaders who supported him. Nash agreed to run and “this greatly upset the Dane County Democrats.”
Tape/Side   77/1
Time   08:05
MILTON SCHNEIDER
Scope and Content Note: “Milt and I came apart at that point.” Milt was very opinionated and abrupt and was given the task of convincing Nash not to run; offered him the alternative of becoming national committeeman, which Nash refused.
Tape/Side   77/1
Time   10:50
IMMEDIATE UPSHOT OF NASH'S VICTORY
Scope and Content Note: Remained friends with his opponent, Horace Wilkie. Madison people feared Nash would close the Madison headquarters and move it to Milwaukee. “I intended to heal, not to wound.... I didn't do any of the things that the power hungry wanted me to do and thought I would do.” Henry Maier would have wanted the office moved to Milwaukee. Permitted people to buy Jefferson-Jackson Day Dinner tickets on the installment plan and raised a good deal of money.
Tape/Side   77/1
Time   13:15
THE ROBERT LA FOLLETTE SUCHER INCIDENT
Scope and Content Note: Anti-Sucher people used the Madison party office to attempt to defeat one of the party's dully nominated candidates.
Tape/Side   77/1
Time   14:55
NASH'S DEFEAT AS CHAIRMAN IN 1957
Scope and Content Note: Knew he would be challenged in the convention and was not terribly disturbed by the prospect of defeat. “If I couldn't preside over a united party, I didn't want to preside at all. In other words, I didn't want to go into the 1958 election with one hand tied behind me.” Nash chose two convention lieutenants who were not good choices--Chris Seraphim, “a wild man if ever there was one,” and another man. They permitted many of Nash's supporters to go off for a drink before voting and several of them did not return in time to vote. They got in line after the polls had officially closed. They wanted to challenge their right to vote, but Nash refused. As a result, he lost by five votes.
Tape/Side   77/1
Time   19:50
MORE ON NASH'S DECISION TO RUN FOR THE CHAIRMANSHIP IN 1955
Scope and Content Note: Henry Maier and the others knew about his activities in Wood County because he had invited them to speak at the meetings he was holding around the county. There might have been a little mystique about the 1948 Truman election and Nash's role in that.
Tape/Side   77/1
Time   21:55
NASH FELT HE DID SUCCESSFULLY UNITE THE PARTY LONG ENOUGH TO WIN THE 1957 AND 1958 ELECTIONS
Tape/Side   77/1
Time   23:45
REASONS FOR HIS FAILURE TO WIN REELECTION TO THE PARTY CHAIRMANSHIP
Scope and Content Note: The indifference of Henry Maier. By 1957 Maier had determined that his political future was in the city of Milwaukee, not statewide. “I was substantially without a manager in '57.... The second thing is, I think, I probably too didn't care as much as I should have.” Did not organize well enough and did not campaign hard enough. Gave a poor speech at the convention.
Tape/Side   77/1
Time   26:05
END OF TAPE 77, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   77/2
Time   27:35
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   77/2
Time   28:25
MORE ON THE PROBLEMS OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF WISCONSIN IN THE MID-1950s
Scope and Content Note: “The DOC was put together by a combination of disillusioned Progressives and dissatisfied Democrats, I'd say.” There also were some top flight people. No better public servants in Wisconsin history than Henry Reuss, Tom Fairchild, Pat Lucey, and Jim Doyle. “But it takes more than being right to win.” It takes lots of hard work. The DOC leaders had an attitude that all it took to win elections was to nominate the best available people. “Something had to be done to overcome the mistrust of the oldtime Progressives for organized labor.” Mistrust between the Progressives whose roots were in Scandinavian socialism and the Milwaukee labor people whose roots were in nineteenth century German socialism.
Tape/Side   77/2
Time   32:55
PAT LUCEY WAS LINING UP PEOPLE FOR JOHN KENNEDY LONG BEFORE 1960
Tape/Side   77/2
Time   35:50
GROWTH OF THE PARTY DURING NASH'S CHAIRMANSHIP
Scope and Content Note: Lucey claimed the party did not grow in membership during Nash's term. “It grew in interest; it grew in visibility; it grew in strength; and it grew in finance.” If it lost membership, “I'm not aware of it.”
Tape/Side   77/2
Time   36:40
SPECIAL ELECTION OF 1957 TO FILL JOE McCATHY'S SENATE SEAT
Scope and Content Note: Had a radio-TV fund which had a lot of money; principle source of money was the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee. Nash organized pressure on Governor Vernon Thomson to call a special election after the death of McCarthy. The administrative committee of the Democratic Party did not want Proxmire to run. He was a three time loser; they feared the carpetbagger issue; and they did not like him personally. “That's easy, not to like him.” Nash wanted to win and felt Proxmire could win. Nash organized an unscientific poll, using Young Democrats as workers. The poll cost only two hundred dollars and its results were very close to the actual primary results. The party had no campaign fund. Nash took his poll results to Washington and used it to get money from the Senate Campaign Committee. Lyndon Johnson raised $65,000. A party worker in Janesville, who later became important in the John Kennedy campaign for president Paul Corbin; see Gerald Flynn interview, Tape 81, Side 1, 19 to end of interview, is probably responsible for starting a rumor that $10,000 in COPE money was missing from the campaign fund, “and Proxmire fell for it.” Nash had labor leaders try to convince Proxmire that there never was any money, but he would not believe them. “It suited Prox's purposes to believe what he'd heard from this guy from Janesville.” The theory of the rumor was that Nash was holding back the money for his own campaign to challenge Proxmire in 1958.
Tape/Side   77/2
Time   53:30
END OF TAPE 77, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   78/1
Time   00:25
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   78/1
Time   01:15
DECISION TO RUN FOR LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR IN 1958
Scope and Content Note: “The political bug had bit me.” Considered running for Congress in the Seventh District, but a poll indicated he would not win. Lucey asked him to run for lieutenant governor for the sake of party unity. Since party unity had been his objective from the start, he felt an obligation to run. Talked it over with Harry Truman before deciding. Did not expect to win, but did win in a very close race. “So, then I had a very happy two years....”
Tape/Side   78/1
Time   05:25
DEFEAT IN 1960
Scope and Content Note: Two Young Democrats produced a million pink flyers alleging Nash had been a Communist. Distribution of the pink sheets was concentrated in McCarthy strongholds. Religion was an issue in the election that year because of John Kennedy. Lutheran ministers wrote letters to their parishioners warning of a Democratic victory. Kennedy campaigners used Catholic parish halls for political meetings. Nash's election analysis showed that the pink sheets were not very effective. Lost by about the same amount that Kennedy lost by. Despite his incumbency, “you could say that I failed to take hold in my two years as lieutenant governor.” His strong civil rights stand cost him, particularly on the south side of Milwaukee.
Tape/Side   78/1
Time   12:30
LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR PRIMARY IN 1960
Scope and Content Note: Jerome Grant ran against Nash and did well. Ran well on the south side of Milwaukee.
Tape/Side   78/1
Time   13:50
MORE ON THE PINK SHEET IN THE 1960 ELECTION
Scope and Content Note: Nash tried to turn the issue around by reprinting the pink sheets, but using both sides. He used it to raise campaign funds, showing people what he was up against. The two fellows who initiated the pink sheet campaign identified themselves as disillusioned Young Democrats.
Tape/Side   78/1
Time   16:40
THE PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN AND THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR CAMPAIGN IN 1960
Scope and Content Note: Nash had campaigned hard for Hubert Humphrey. Nash would have switched to Kennedy after the Wisconsin primary if Humphrey had pulled out. Nash was asked to campaign for Humphrey in West Virginia, but refused because his own campaign for reelection needed attention. “I put everything into personal appearances in the '60 campaign.” Hired a small airplane and flew around the state trying to make news. Went to the convention as a Humphrey delegate and eventually urged other Humphrey delegates to switch to Kennedy when it became clear he would win. Feared a Kennedy-Johnson ticket. “I think it was a disaster.”
Tape/Side   78/1
Time   20:50
KENNEDY APPOINTED NASH COMMISSIONER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS EVEN THOUGH NASH HAD NOT SUPPORTED HIM IN THE PRIMARY
Scope and Content Note: John was less vindictive than Bobby. Bobby Kennedy never forgave Nash and, as Attorney General, would not provide Nash the Justice Department assistance he sometimes required. Because of promises made to people active in Indian causes, Kennedy needed someone knowledgeable about Indian affairs. Nash went to see Stuart Udall, recently nominated Secretary of Interior, who told him the administration was committed to appointing an Indian to the position of Commissioner.
Tape/Side   78/1
Time   29:35
END OF TAPE 78, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   78/2
Time   30:50
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   78/2
Time   31:45
MORE ON NASH'S APPOINTMENT AS COMMISSIONER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS
Scope and Content Note: An Indian was appointed on an interim basis and then Nash was nominated for the post. The two men who had initiated the pink sheet campaign in 1960 appeared at Nash's confirmation hearing to testify against his appointment. He was appointed nevertheless.
Tape/Side   78/2
Time   34:20
THE MADISON-MILWAUKEE-OUTSTATE DIVISIONS WITHIN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: Actually quite common; exists in most states. Dealing with such divisions should be one of the principle jobs of the party chairman.
Tape/Side   78/2
Time   36:25
ELECTION OF JOE McCARTHY IN 1946
Scope and Content Note: A crucial factor was a heavy turnout for McCarthy in West Allis where the Communist-led union at Allis Chalmers wanted to prevent Bob La Follette, Jr., from investigating it.
Tape/Side   78/2
Time   40:10
MORE ON PAT LUCEY
Scope and Content Note: “Sure he built up the party; anybody could after I worked for it between 1955 and 1957.” “The desire for public office is really incompatible with being a good party manager.” “Pat was a very, very good governor, and I certainly can't find fault with him as a party manager.” However, Nash does find fault with him for running for vice president on a third party ticket in 1980.
Tape/Side   78/2
Time   41:45
MORE ON THE MADISON-MILWAUKEE-OUTSTATE DIVISIONS
Scope and Content Note: The outstaters did not really constitute a group by themselves but rather chose sides between Madison and Milwaukee. For instance, northern mining counties were heavily Democratic because of the union connections with Milwaukee and usually would line up with Milwaukee.
Tape/Side   78/2
Time   43:25
ASSESSMENT OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF WISCONSIN TODAY
Scope and Content Note: “Not too good.” Not particularly strong candidates for some of the major offices, like U.S. Senator in 1986. Postmaster appointments have taken away many of the local party leadership. “The ones that really showed us how to campaign in this state were the Kennedy's. They put together the party that Pat Lucey led.”
Tape/Side   78/2
Time   49:50
END OF INTERVIEW
Audio   1030A/79-81
Subseries: Gerald Flynn, 1986 September 24
Note: Access online.
Tape/Side   79/1
Time   00:15
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   79/1
Time   01:05
BIOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND
Scope and Content Note: Born on a dairy farm in Racine County. Father immigrated from Ireland at age nine. Generally kept about forty cows on the dairy farm. Flynn milked cows twice a day from the age of twelve and did all the usual farm work of the time. Attended a one-room school in the town of Caledonia. Went to St. Catherine's High School in Racine. Got a law degree from Marquette University in 1933, returned to Racine to practice law, and has practiced law in Racine ever since. Served four years in the state senate and one term in the Congress. Married in 1938. Two sons and two daughters. One son a circuit court judge. Fourteen grandchildren. Has lived in current home in Racine for forty years.
Tape/Side   79/1
Time   06:40
ALWAYS HAD AN INTEREST IN POLITICS
Scope and Content Note: Stayed up until 4 a.m. listening to the 1928 Democratic Convention on the radio, pulling for Al Smith. Parents were Democrats who supported the La Follettes.
Tape/Side   79/1
Time   08:15
BECAME ACTIVE IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY UPON GRADUATION FROM LAW SCHOOL
Tape/Side   79/1
Time   09:10
HISTORY OF RACINE COUNTY AND WISCONSIN HELPS EXPLAIN THEIR POLITICS
Scope and Content Note: Immigration. Haymarket Square in Racine, where farmers sold hay to city dwellers who kept horses. Norwegians and Danes in Racine. “Now, there are only a few events in a lifetime that sway mass thought and mass emotion, and cause people on a mass basis to change their normal habits. One doesn't change his religion; one doesn't change his political faith; one doesn't change his normal customs, until some great event comes about that causes a radical change in his life.” The Civil War was such an event. Most people in Wisconsin became Republicans at this time and stuck with it. This discussion and that which follows on Side 2 of this tape, consists largely of relating a standard history of events, with Flynn's interpretations, which are summarized above.
Tape/Side   79/1
Time   26:15
END OF TAPE 79, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   79/2
Time   27:25
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   79/2
Time   28:15
MORE ON FLYNN'S INTERPRETATION OF THE HISTORY OF RACINE AND WISCONSIN
Scope and Content Note: The next great event to cause mass political shifts was the Great Depression. Roosevelt was not elected by the Democratic Party. “He was elected by the people of the United States as a savior of our country. There weren't enough Democrats in the United States to elect a President at that time.” The Democratic Party at that time consisted largely of Irish Catholics. At the state level, however, Wisconsinites had the La Follette Progressives to turn to rather than the Democrats. When La Follette dissolved the Progressive Party and returned to the Republicans, labor would not follow him. La Follette's dissolution of the Progressive Party created “the greatest moment in decision making, as far as politics are concerned, in the history of politics in the State of Wisconsin.”
Tape/Side   79/2
Time   41:40
STATUS OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN WISCONSIN AT THE TIME OF THE DISSOLUTION OF THE PROGRESSIVE PARTY
Scope and Content Note: Provided no alternative to the Republicans; honest, but its program did not differ from the Republicans. Did not have the courage or strength to press for social legislation. Flynn had been active in the party for some time and was impressed, finally, with its top leadership--Bob Tehan and Jerome Fox, “true liberals.” The question was whether these people could be trusted to “make the Democratic Party a liberal vehicle for social legislation” and thereby make the party attractive to labor and other liberals. Flynn knew them and trusted them. It was up to Fox, Tehan, and the State Central Committee to convince the longtime, diehard Democrats to welcome the new constituencies and give them an equal say in running the party.
Tape/Side   79/2
Time   48:05
DISTRUST WITHIN THE NEW COALITION
Scope and Content Note: Labor and the liberals did not believe that the oldtime Democrats would share control of the party, and the oldtime Democrats feared labor would take complete control of the party. To dispell that mistrust, “It took all the political maneuverability that Jerry Fox of Chilton and Bob Tehan of Milwaukee had and the assistance that the State Central Committee gave it to sell the Democrats that were active that here truly was an opportunity for the Democratic Party to become the dominant party in the state of Wisconsin, to become what we always said we were--that is, a liberal party--but which we never had actually been before, to have labor join us, and to be the party of the people....” “There was grave doubt. And I can't tell you the doubt, how strong it was in 1948 when this merger took place.”
Tape/Side   79/2
Time   51:05
1948 DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL CONVENTION
Scope and Content Note: Flynn attended the convention as a proponent of the merger of the old Democrats and the new liberals. “That was the dullest, deadest, most terrible convention any man ever attended.”
Tape/Side   79/2
Time   52:55
END OF TAPE 79, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   80/1
Time   01:05
MORE ON THE 1948 DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL CONVENTION
Scope and Content Note: Truman “made, I think, the greatest speech I've ever heard.” And the convention was no longer dull. Electrified the audience.
Tape/Side   80/1
Time   03:30
BUILDING UP THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN RACINE COUNTY
Scope and Content Note: When Flynn finished law school and got active in the Democratic Party in 1933, the party consisted of only three main people. They welcomed him. Flynn was looked to as the person to unify the new constituencies with the old Democrats. The First District could not elect a Democratic Congressman. Democrats could carry about fifty-five percent of the vote in Racine and Kenosha Counties, but would lose the other counties by huge margins. Flynn worked mainly with the unions. Harvey Kitzman, president of the J.I.Case union, was a key figure. Ardith Riggs, an old Socialist at the Case plant, was also very important in convincing labor to join the Democrats. He and Flynn worked as a team visiting local union meetings. Old Progressives, like Mayor Francis Wendt and Flynn's own law partner, opposed this because they were trying to bring labor into the Republican Party. “We carried the unions in Racine almost completely.”
Tape/Side   80/1
Time   10:40
SPLIT WITHIN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN RACINE
Scope and Content Note: Two people in particular vied with Flynn for local party leadership. At a meeting one of them said, “If you think you're so damned smart, then why don't you run for office.” Flynn accepted the challenge and ran for the state senate, heading a slate which won the primary and the general election. Flynn then set about working on unity within the county, on sharing the power. “And we did make amends with them. We did bring them in. And the same people that fought us, joined up with us and became supportive.... But it took time.”
Tape/Side   80/1
Time   13:25
FLYNN DID NOT RUN FOR REELECTION TO THE STATE SENATE
Scope and Content Note: Had a young family at the time and was paying his secretary more than he was making from the state senate.
Tape/Side   80/1
Time   14:20
THE NEED FOR CANDIDATES WITH EXPERIENCES OUTSIDE OF JUST POLITICS
Tape/Side   80/1
Time   16:35
CARL THOMPSON GAVE UP A LOT FOR THE PARTY
Tape/Side   80/1
Time   17:15
FLYNN WAS INVOLVED IN THE DOC FROM THE START
Scope and Content Note: On the State Central Committee and in frequent contact with Bob Tehan. Was not a delegate to the first convention, however, because of a dishonest vote in the meeting to elect delegates.
Tape/Side   80/1
Time   19:15
MORE ON THE SPLIT IN RACINE COUNTY
Scope and Content Note: Basically a split between the old Democrats and a couple powerful labor leaders. Sam Rizzo, of the Auto Workers, “wanted personal power. And he used his position in labor to further himself in politics; he used his position in politics to further himself in labor.” Rizzo's lawyer, a man named Ben Schwartz was the other key figure on the side opposed to Flynn. They wanted to control the whole party in Racine.
Tape/Side   80/1
Time   22:30
THE SPLIT IN THE PARTY CONTRIBUTED TO FLYNN LOSING HIS SEAT IN CONGRESS
Scope and Content Note: Flynn tried to heal the split, like hiring Mrs. Schwartz's son during the summer. Rizzo even backed Flynn for Congress, backed him strongly. Flynn took Rizzo to Washington and roomed with him. After a few months, Rizzo took a leave to work on the Humphrey for President (1960) Campaign. When Rizzo returned to Wisconsin, “he started undermining me in the District,” especially amongst labor. Ten days before the election, Schwartz called Flynn and explained why labor was cool--because Flynn had refused to sign a letter sent him during a strike at J.I.Case. “I said, 'You in particular should know more than to try and to use the Congressional office as a campaign tool when a strike is going on.'” Essentially, Schwartz then offered to help reelect Flynn, provided he and Rizzo could “run that office.” “I said, 'If that's your price for support, ...it's a price that I will not pay.'” Lost 5500 votes in Racine, which, if they had gone the other way, would have elected him.
Tape/Side   80/1
Time   29:15
END OF TAPE 80, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   80/2
Time   31:05
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   80/2
Time   31:55
LEADERSHIP OF THE OLD PROGRESSIVES IN RACINE DID NOT JOIN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: “...They just died...disintegrated.”
Tape/Side   80/2
Time   32:15
DIVISIONS IN THE PARTY AT THE STATE LEVEL
Scope and Content Note: Milwaukee people felt, because of their size, that they should have greater recognition. “On the other hand, over the years the Milwaukee area had not come up with forward-looking, progressive-type legislation for the benefit of the mass of people. So many of their people were people that could be lobbied.... And the people coming off the campus in Madison had, I think, a higher moral tone.” The Madison people were more intelligent and simply of a “higher quality.” Because of the existence of a ward level organization, which resulted in battles for control of the county organization, Milwaukee was different from the rest of the state. Madison people travelled the state making speeches. “They captured the imagination, they captured the friendship of the officers of the party in the northern counties. So that Madison controlled not only Madison, but the outlying areas.... Milwaukee never went outside of Milwaukee County; they were fighting within the county all the time.” Madison people, however, could have used “a lesson in public relations.” They “tried to force it, drive it home, rather than be a leader and bring it home.” “So Madison comes in with a power play for over several years time with legislation, what they're going to do, and they start running the party.” Henry Maier was young and politically ambitious, “and they didn't do anything to blend Maier into their organization.” So Maier organized the Lake Shore against Madison and the north. Governor Tony Earl is making the same mistake today. Gaylord Nelson, unlike Pat Lucey, avoided confrontation with Maier.
Tape/Side   80/2
Time   45:05
PHILLEO NASH
Scope and Content Note: He was good for the party, tried to unify it. Flynn supported him for chairman of the party.
Tape/Side   80/2
Time   46:20
FLYNN LINED UP MORE WITH MILWAUKEE THAN WITH MADISON
Scope and Content Note: “Lucey turned me off.” Lucey is doing better now.
Tape/Side   80/2
Time   47:25
FLYNN IN THE STATE SENATE
Scope and Content Note: The state senate passed eighteen of the twenty-one bills he introduced during his first session. He tried to do a good job for his district. Got along well with the Republicans in the state senate., “because I didn't go in as a flaming liberal.” Roomed with Senator William Draheim of Neenah, who also was a conservative Democrat. Became good friends with Warren Knowles. Democrats fillibustered the reapportionment bill. Angered Knowles because they did not yield the floor when expected and Knowles had already claimed Republican victory to the press.
Tape/Side   80/2
Time   54:30
FLYNN WAS NEVER ABLE TO WORK WELL WITH PAT LUCEY
Scope and Content Note: Lucey was a loner, who dealt well only with a few advisors in Madison.
Tape/Side   80/2
Time   54:55
DECISION TO RUN FOR CONGRESS IN 1956
Scope and Content Note: The incumbent, Larry Smith, had let it be known that his health was poor and this would be his last term. Flynn, by running against him, would become the front runner in 1958 should Smith actually retire. Did not think he could beat Smith.
Tape/Side   80/2
Time   56:15
FLYNN LIKED BEING IN CONGRESS
Tape/Side   80/2
Time   57:30
LYNN STALBAUM
Scope and Content Note: Succeeded Flynn in the state senate, with Flynn's support.
Tape/Side   80/2
Time   59:05
END OF TAPE 80, SIDE 2
Tape/Side   81/1
Time   00:25
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   81/1
Time   01:10
FIRST DISTRICT CONGRESSIONAL ELECTIONS IN THE 1960s
Scope and Content Note: Flynn lost the election in 1962 because he did not have the support of the Auto Workers because of Schwartz and Rizzo. In 1964, Schwartz and Rizzo promised Stalbaum labor's support if he would run in the primary against Flynn. Stalbaum won the primary and the general election. Rizzo and Schwartz then tried to dominate Stalbaum like they had tried with Flynn, “but Lynn apparently told them to go to hell.” Stalbaum was very honest. Schwartz and Rizzo worked against Stalbaum when he ran for reelection and, just as was the case with Flynn, he was unable to pull enough support in Racine to be elected again. “They thought they could control that office in Washington.”
Tape/Side   81/1
Time   06:10
FLYNN'S SECRETARY IN WASHINGTON HAD ALERTED HIM TO RIZZO'S PLANS IN 1959-1960
Tape/Side   81/1
Time   06:40
LES ASPIN DID NOT FACE THE SAME SITUATION BECAUSE RIZZO AND SCHWARTZ HAD FADED FROM THE SCENE BY THE TIME ASPIN WAS RUNNING FOR CONGRESS
Tape/Side   81/1
Time   06:50
AFTER HIS LAST CONGRESSIONAL CAMPAIGN, FLYNN DID NOT RUN FOR PUBLIC OFFICE AGAIN AND BECAME MUCH LESS ACTIVE IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Tape/Side   81/1
Time   07:15
FLYNN'S DECISION TO BECOME AN ATTORNEY
Scope and Content Note: Influenced by a judge who lived near his parents' farm.
Tape/Side   81/1
Time   08:25
ALTHOUGH HE SUPPORTED PROGRESSIVE CANDIDATES FOR STATE OFFICE, FLYNN WAS NEVER ACTIVE IN THE PROGRESSIVE PARTY
Tape/Side   81/1
Time   09:00
STATUS OF THE RACINE COUNTY DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN 1933 WHEN FLYNN RETURNED FROM LAW SCHOOL
Scope and Content Note: No meetings, since there were only three people plus Flynn who were party activists. Flynn worked to enliven the party. Started a Young Democrats chapter.
Tape/Side   81/1
Time   09:35
THE SOCIAL STIGMA OF ONE'S POLITICAL AFFILIATION
Scope and Content Note: In the 1930s and 1940s in Racine and even later in Rock County being a Democrat was socially unacceptable and could hurt one's business.
Tape/Side   81/1
Time   10:35
RACINE IN THE 1930s VOTED FOR PROGRESSIVE CANDIDATES BY A SLIGHT MARGIN
Tape/Side   81/1
Time   11:35
ROCK COUNTY MADE THE DIFFERENCE WHEN FLYNN WAS ELECTED TO CONGRESS IN 1958
Scope and Content Note: Between 1956 and 1958 Flynn spent a lot of time in Rock County, working mainly through the unions, to improve his chances in the 1958 election. While he still lost Rock County in 1958, the margin was drastically reduced.
Tape/Side   81/1
Time   13:35
ROLE OF BLACKS IN RACINE'S DEMOCRATIC PARTY
Scope and Content Note: In the early years, they were non-political and rarely voted. “Most of the blacks that were here in Racine were brought up in truck loads by the Racine Steel Company from Mississippi.... They were the poorest of the poor....” Some work was done through the churches, but the churches were small. Those blacks who did get active politically did so through the unions. Did have a couple black aldermen.
Tape/Side   81/1
Time   15:50
PARTY LEADERS FROM MADISON DID NOT TRY TO DOMINATE RACINE AND KENOSHA
Tape/Side   81/1
Time   18:10
IN 1960 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN FLYNN SUPPORTED HUMPHREY
Tape/Side   81/1
Time   19:20
CAMPAIGN DEBT DINNER
Scope and Content Note: To pay off his 1958 campaign debt, Flynn had a ten dollar a plate dinner at Parker Pen in Janesville. The hail seated 550 people, but the man (Paul Corbin) who took charge of the affair sold 750 tickets. John Kennedy was the guest speaker. The overflow crowd was sent to a hotel to eat. “It took me two years to overcome that, the two hundred people who paid their money and didn't get in.”
Tape/Side   81/1
Time   22:30
REVEALED THAT CORBIN HAD BEEN A COMMUNIST
Scope and Content Note: He was furtive, but a good organizer. Corbin was Flynn's unpaid home secretary for Rock and Walworth counties. Janesville Democrats revealed to Flynn that Corbin was, or had been, a Communist. This greatly surprised Flynn since Corbin had been editor of the Wisconsin Democrat.
Tape/Side   81/1
Time   26:15
END OF TAPE 81, SIDE 1
Tape/Side   81/2
Time   27:50
INTRODUCTION
Tape/Side   81/2
Time   28:35
MORE ON PAUL CORBIN'S COMMUNIST TIES AND HIS CLOSENESS TO BOBBY KENNEDY
Scope and Content Note: Had belonged to a Communist cell in California. Involved in unions in Milwaukee. Moved to Janesville and did advertising work. Attorney General's office had a thick file on him. Flynn fired Corbin. Corbin, involved in the Kennedy campaign in Wisconsin, remained with the campaign through the election. After the election, Bobby Kennedy wanted to hire Corbin, but was unable to get a security clearance for him. So, he made him the number two man in the Democratic National Committee. The number one man was always a U.S. Senator; hence, the number two man was the effective head of the DNC. Bobby Kennedy had a private telephone line from his desk to Corbin's desk so they could talk without even going through secretaries. When Kennedy left the Attorney General's office, Corbin's file disappeared and Corbin wound up working for the Kennedy Trust.
Tape/Side   81/2
Time   35:50
END OF INTERVIEW

Notes:
[1] : This claim of Maier's is inaccurate. He ran well behind Proxmire, but he did run well ahead of Democratic presidential candidate Adlai Stevenson.