If you could describe some of those, some of the workshops or conferences that you went to.

Well, what is there to describe about them? You know---I hate to say this sometimes you had a feeling that there wasn't a whole lot accomplished. I remember one situation, one thing---now you see it. This is kind of a personal matter I was invited to the first World Pallet Conference or something like that and I think it was in Switzerland. And so I went and I could take my wife so I took my wife with me. And she was, she was, she had a major in French and music. She taught music and French more or less as substitute teacher not as a permanent resident. But these programs in---I think it was Switzerland---they were in three languages I think English, then there was a French, and I guess German.

What, what year was this?

Huh?

What year was this?

What?

Do you remember what year this was?

Yeah it had to be---we lived at the lake and we moved there in, probably around 1960, early '60s maybe1960's about as I can guess right now. I think I moved there in '50-something I, I'm guessing about 19---in the early 60s. And, anyhow we had to submit a copy of our, what we were going talk about so that each of these interpreters could do it. And I remember---I was giving this talk, of course I was giving it in English, and I looked up and here my wife walks in the back of the room, sits down and puts on headphones. And I thought what in the world is going on here, well I suppose I lost my train of thought momentarily, but got back on, I got all done and later on I said what in the world were you doing with the headphones? Oh she said I wanted to listen to it in French. Well anyhow, so but that, that has really nothing to do with my working here at the Lab, but it's a situation that occurred because of my working here. And there are others too that maybe I'll think of occasionally. But these well---in general I would have to say that I enjoyed my work immensely here, I was very happy, had good bosses and I think there was a lot of camaraderie in those days. I have no way of comparing it because I don't, I'm not here now. and I---the few people that I know here I only see them like last year on the golf course or something like that.

And I don't, as I say there's no reason for me to come back here, I did have my name in as volunteer for a number of years after I retired, but three, four years afterwards there was very little interest in, in coming back here to get information on packaging. It's pretty much available worldwide you know other places and why pay to have somebody. So anyhow, there wasn't a whole lot of requests after the first couple of years that I, after I retired. Then, you know, you could see, I could see the writing on the wall there wasn't going to be a whole lot of packaging work left at the Lab. And I, I had thirty years of service and was old enough to retire without penalty so. I took off. I missed, I missed the people, I---that I would have to say, because we had a great bunch of people. I still see some of them---like John Koning. And we've got, there's a group of us that get together every now and then for breakfast, or birthday group and stuff like that, but it's, I don't come back here, there's no, there is nothing now that you know I could be of any help to them now. It's all memories.