So was that a fairly common thing to be butting heads with the industry when you were working with them or was that just a special case?

That was a special case, mostly industry people would come to see us and say what do you think of this idea, do you think it will work. We'd say well lets put some in tests and we can give you [an answer] in probably two years. Or if they come in---oh there was always people coming in with a sack full of tricks, they got the best thing in the world you know and ninety percent of the time you could throw it out because their idea was flawed. One thing with working and having your head on straight and understanding a little bit about wood and how it reacts to chemicals, you can hit it off real easy because your knowledge and you know what wood is like and how you handle it, it helps and that's what we were good at. The advice they get from us was always free there was no charge for it.